Game 73: Phoenix Suns (58-14) @ Minnesota T-Wolves(42-31) l Wednesday l 5:00pm l BSAZ

[lonea]

Haha no, I was simply pointing out your hypocrisy.

I didn't "rope in Paul. I was simply giving you an example.

However, you are actually tying to bring in Bowens and start a whataboutism with him.

You seemed okay with roping in Paul, but I guess me bringing in Bowen isn't acceptable for the sake of furthering the discussion comparatively. I was just following your lead, but whatevs.

To be honest, I think this has run it's course. This will be my last post on the matter at hand.

[Saberestar]

Just watch the replay again.

He was planning for the steal from the lazy pass. This isn't any dirty play man.

CP3 does pull some on court tactics that I can understand being frustrated by. He does some borderline dirty stuff but to be fair I think all undersized players do some stuff like this so they don’t get destroyed on defense by bigger guards. Many of us hated CP3 for some of these antics and drawing fouls stuff before he joined the Suns. But I don’t think CP3 goes out of his way to try and injure guys like Beverly does. Even yesterday that play where he ran into Booker’s hip for no reason as Book’s simply bringing the ball up was the perfect example. Booker is an elite basketball player, does he seriously think he can just press him and Book would’ve lost the ball or something? No, and he knows that too, he came in hard as if he was Polamalu playing safety to try and injure him.

Booker yaps a lot because he’s more old school and believes in trash talking and such. I can totally understand some other fans not liking him because of that or his “complaining” or whatever. I actually don’t mind trash talking from anyone and liked KAT’s trash talking from last night, I just wish he backed it up after but regardless it’s good for the game. But KAT also isn’t a dirty player and doesn’t try to injure anyone, just trash talk by itself is totally appropriate imo. Just like Embiid does too.

Ok, fair enough.

But what do you think about this particular play?

If you have played any type of basketball you will know that he wanted to damage the shooter. Payne got lucky no tweaking his ankle.

[lilfishi22]

Just watch the replay again.

He was planning for the steal from the lazy pass. This isn't any dirty play man.

CP3 does pull some on court tactics that I can understand being frustrated by. He does some borderline dirty stuff but to be fair I think all undersized players do some stuff like this so they don’t get destroyed on defense by bigger guards. Many of us hated CP3 for some of these antics and drawing fouls stuff before he joined the Suns. But I don’t think CP3 goes out of his way to try and injure guys like Beverly does. Even yesterday that play where he ran into Booker’s hip for no reason as Book’s simply bringing the ball up was the perfect example. Booker is an elite basketball player, does he seriously think he can just press him and Book would’ve lost the ball or something? No, and he knows that too, he came in hard as if he was Polamalu playing safety to try and injure him.

Booker yaps a lot because he’s more old school and believes in trash talking and such. I can totally understand some other fans not liking him because of that or his “complaining” or whatever. I actually don’t mind trash talking from anyone and liked KAT’s trash talking from last night, I just wish he backed it up after but regardless it’s good for the game. But KAT also isn’t a dirty player and doesn’t try to injure anyone, just trash talk by itself is totally appropriate imo. Just like Embiid does too.

Ok, fair enough.

But what do you think about this particular play?

If you have play any type of basketball you will know that he wanted to damage the shooter. Payne got lucky no tweaking his ankle.

Looks even worse on replay. In real time, it looked like a foul with PatBev stepping into Payne's landing spot but on replay, it's even more apparent and exaggerated just how far PatBev sticks his leg out. I'm not necessarily saying he's actively trying to injure Payne but what he did was completely reckless, dangerous and negligent. It's just luck that Payne didn't land and twist his ankle.

[lonea]

Haha bring out the "if you played any type of basketball" comment.

Watch the replay again.

PatBev gave a lot of space to Payne to land. I mean A LOT. He literally gave Payne the whole inside area to land. It's much safer then if Bev was to stop in front of Payne. He also never touched Payne... Not even close. That's the difference between an elite defender vs dirty player.

Payne was trying to draw a foul when he fell down. But he was falling down on his own already.

What he did is unconventional which uneducated people may think it's dirty or it's a foul...



At the end of the day, if PatBev just stopped in front of Payne. Some people here will still call him dirty...

Just watch the replay again.

He was planning for the steal from the lazy pass. This isn't any dirty play man.

CP3 does pull some on court tactics that I can understand being frustrated by. He does some borderline dirty stuff but to be fair I think all undersized players do some stuff like this so they don’t get destroyed on defense by bigger guards. Many of us hated CP3 for some of these antics and drawing fouls stuff before he joined the Suns. But I don’t think CP3 goes out of his way to try and injure guys like Beverly does. Even yesterday that play where he ran into Booker’s hip for no reason as Book’s simply bringing the ball up was the perfect example. Booker is an elite basketball player, does he seriously think he can just press him and Book would’ve lost the ball or something? No, and he knows that too, he came in hard as if he was Polamalu playing safety to try and injure him.

Booker yaps a lot because he’s more old school and believes in trash talking and such. I can totally understand some other fans not liking him because of that or his “complaining” or whatever. I actually don’t mind trash talking from anyone and liked KAT’s trash talking from last night, I just wish he backed it up after but regardless it’s good for the game. But KAT also isn’t a dirty player and doesn’t try to injure anyone, just trash talk by itself is totally appropriate imo. Just like Embiid does too.

Ok, fair enough.

But what do you think about this particular play?

If you have played any type of basketball you will know that he wanted to damage the shooter. Payne got lucky no tweaking his ankle.

[Saberestar]

Haha bring out the "if you played any type of basketball" comment.

Watch the replay again.

PatBev gave a lot of space to Payne to land. I mean A LOT. He literally gave Payne the whole inside area to land. It's much safer then if Bev was to stop in front of Payne. He also never touched Payne... Not even close. That's the difference between an elite defender vs dirty player.

Payne was trying to draw a foul when he fell down. But he was falling down on his own already.

What he did is unconventional which uneducated people may think it's dirty or it's a foul...



At the end of the day, if PatBev just stopped in front of Payne. Some people here will still call him dirty...

Just watch the replay again.

He was planning for the steal from the lazy pass. This isn't any dirty play man.

Ok, fair enough.

But what do you think about this particular play?

If you have played any type of basketball you will know that he wanted to damage the shooter. Payne got lucky no tweaking his ankle.

OK..... enough said.

[lilfishi22]

Haha bring out the "if you played any type of basketball" comment.

Watch the replay again.

PatBev gave a lot of space to Payne to land. I mean A LOT. He literally gave Payne the whole inside area to land. It's much safer then if Bev was to stop in front of Payne. He also never touched Payne... Not even close. That's the difference between an elite defender vs dirty player.

Payne was trying to draw a foul when he fell down. But he was falling down on his own already.

What he did is unconventional which uneducated people may think it's dirty or it's a foul...



At the end of the day, if PatBev just stopped in front of Payne. Some people here will still call him dirty...

Just watch the replay again.

He was planning for the steal from the lazy pass. This isn't any dirty play man.

Ok, fair enough.

But what do you think about this particular play?

If you have played any type of basketball you will know that he wanted to damage the shooter. Payne got lucky no tweaking his ankle.

How can we both be looking at the same image, same video and one thinks PatBev was courteous to leave Payne A LOT of space while the other thinks he's literally occupying the same spot in the same spacetime continuum.

I mean PatBev's entire leg crosses through and emerges on the other side of Payne's land spot all the while Payne is falling on Bev's shoulder...that's the definition of in his landing space. If you shot and come down landing on a dude's shoulder, it means he's in your space when you land. I mean...what are we talking about here?

[SkyBill40]

I mean PatBev's entire leg crosses through and emerges on the other side of Payne's land spot all the while Payne is falling on Bev's shoulder...that's the definition of in his landing space. If you shot and come down landing on a dude's shoulder, it means he's in your space when you land. I mean...what are we talking about here?

Beverley quite obviously invaded his landing space. That's a no go situation and he knows better for sure. What we're talking about here is someone trying to excuse a pattern of behavior as aggressive defense when it's pretty clear that's not what's on display here.

[lilfishi22]

I mean PatBev's entire leg crosses through and emerges on the other side of Payne's land spot all the while Payne is falling on Bev's shoulder...that's the definition of in his landing space. If you shot and come down landing on a dude's shoulder, it means he's in your space when you land. I mean...what are we talking about here?

Beverley quite obviously invaded his landing space. That's a no go situation and he knows better for sure. What we're talking about here is someone trying to excuse a pattern of behavior as aggressive defense when it's pretty clear that's not what's on display here.

So we're in agreement that PatBev was in Payne landing space and it should've been called a foul. That's what I'm trying to establish here because lonea clearly doesn't think so

I'm not arguing whether it was dirty or not because I'd have to establish there was intent to injure but it could have been dangerous nonetheless

[SkyBill40]

I mean PatBev's entire leg crosses through and emerges on the other side of Payne's land spot all the while Payne is falling on Bev's shoulder...that's the definition of in his landing space. If you shot and come down landing on a dude's shoulder, it means he's in your space when you land. I mean...what are we talking about here?

Beverley quite obviously invaded his landing space. That's a no go situation and he knows better for sure. What we're talking about here is someone trying to excuse a pattern of behavior as aggressive defense when it's pretty clear that's not what's on display here.

So we're in agreement that PatBev was in Payne landing space and it should've been called a foul. That's what I'm trying to establish here because lonea clearly doesn't think so

I'm not arguing whether it was dirty or not because I'd have to establish there was intent to injure but it could have been dangerous nonetheless

As you've seen thus far, he and I have gone around with this and I've honestly grown bored with his excusing highly questionable play, especially in this example showing but one of many instances where Beverley has done worse. Crowding the landing space of the offensive player is definitely a foul and if one wasn't called here, that's a failure on the part of the officiating crew. They know better for sure and are the only ones who can enforce it.

[lonea]

If he was actually in the Payne's landing space, the ref would've called the foul. The ref was right there! But the ref didn't take his bait and you shouldn't either.

What do you define the "landing space" as? 360 degree around the player? Stop this ridiculous non-sense.

Watch the replay again, neither player touched each other. Payne was in a falling position.

I mean PatBev's entire leg crosses through and emerges on the other side of Payne's land spot all the while Payne is falling on Bev's shoulder...that's the definition of in his landing space. If you shot and come down landing on a dude's shoulder, it means he's in your space when you land. I mean...what are we talking about here?

Beverley quite obviously invaded his landing space. That's a no go situation and he knows better for sure. What we're talking about here is someone trying to excuse a pattern of behavior as aggressive defense when it's pretty clear that's not what's on display here.

[lonea]

The professional ref clearly didn't think so.

So are you saying the landing zone includes few feet where the player lands? Because Payne clearly ain't shooting backwards.

The "land zone" is pretty cleared in my screen cap. Payne had plenty of it.

If the play wasn't called a foul, then it wasn't a foul. And you are not arguing whether it was dirty or not... then what are you arguing here?

I mean PatBev's entire leg crosses through and emerges on the other side of Payne's land spot all the while Payne is falling on Bev's shoulder...that's the definition of in his landing space. If you shot and come down landing on a dude's shoulder, it means he's in your space when you land. I mean...what are we talking about here?

Beverley quite obviously invaded his landing space. That's a no go situation and he knows better for sure. What we're talking about here is someone trying to excuse a pattern of behavior as aggressive defense when it's pretty clear that's not what's on display here.

So we're in agreement that PatBev was in Payne landing space and it should've been called a foul. That's what I'm trying to establish here because lonea clearly doesn't think so

I'm not arguing whether it was dirty or not because I'd have to establish there was intent to injure but it could have been dangerous nonetheless

[SkyBill40]

If he was actually in the Payne's landing space, the ref would've called the foul. The ref was right there! But the ref didn't take his bait and you shouldn't either.

What do you define the "landing space" as? 360 degree around the player? Stop this ridiculous non-sense.

Watch the replay again, neither player touched each other. Payne was in a falling position.

I mean PatBev's entire leg crosses through and emerges on the other side of Payne's land spot all the while Payne is falling on Bev's shoulder...that's the definition of in his landing space. If you shot and come down landing on a dude's shoulder, it means he's in your space when you land. I mean...what are we talking about here?

Beverley quite obviously invaded his landing space. That's a no go situation and he knows better for sure. What we're talking about here is someone trying to excuse a pattern of behavior as aggressive defense when it's pretty clear that's not what's on display here.

Officials blow calls ALL THE TIME, even if they're right on top of the play. That much is abundantly clear and has happened time and time again with no change in sight. Until the league institutes some kind of automated officiating, it'll continue. Humans are fallible. Just how it is.

The offensive player has to be able to come down safely after their jump. The rules clearly state that a defender must allow that player to land and undercutting that space is a foul. Here are a few examples from the NBA's own site:

https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/defenders-undercutting-airborne-shooters/

The defender doesn't have to touch the offensive player for it to be a foul. It's been called the "Harden Rule" or the "Zaza Rule" and it's been in effect for quite some time:

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/boston-celtics/nba-adds-harden-rule-and-zaza-rule-players-safety

Per your own clip, the official should have made the call as Beverley didn't allow him to land safely and undercut him. But, alas, to err is human and play continued on. What he did wasn't a "basketball play".

[lonea]

LOL, can't believe you are actually taking Payne's bait. If anything, the ref could've call an offensive foul on Payne for kicking his legs out.

Here, I'm sure you'll think this is a "landing space" foul too

https://youtu.be/8dwhAjhLGL4?t=224

Yawn....

If he was actually in the Payne's landing space, the ref would've called the foul. The ref was right there! But the ref didn't take his bait and you shouldn't either.

What do you define the "landing space" as? 360 degree around the player? Stop this ridiculous non-sense.

Watch the replay again, neither player touched each other. Payne was in a falling position.

Beverley quite obviously invaded his landing space. That's a no go situation and he knows better for sure. What we're talking about here is someone trying to excuse a pattern of behavior as aggressive defense when it's pretty clear that's not what's on display here.

Officials blow calls ALL THE TIME, even if they're right on top of the play. That much is abundantly clear and has happened time and time again with no change in sight. Until the league institutes some kind of automated officiating, it'll continue. Humans are fallible. Just how it is.

The offensive player has to be able to come down safely after their jump. The rules clearly state that a defender must allow that player to land and undercutting that space is a foul. Here are a few examples from the NBA's own site:

https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/defenders-undercutting-airborne-shooters/

The defender doesn't have to touch the offensive player for it to be a foul. It's been called the "Harden Rule" or the "Zaza Rule" and it's been in effect for quite some time:

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/boston-celtics/nba-adds-harden-rule-and-zaza-rule-players-safety

Per your own clip, the official should have made the call as Beverley didn't allow him to land safely and undercut him. But, alas, to err is human and play continued on. What he did wasn't a "basketball play".

[lonea]

How about this one, where Ayton clearly is in Embidd's "landing space".

https://youtu.be/8dwhAjhLGL4?t=503

Based on your argument, the refs are blowing a lot of calls.

If he was actually in the Payne's landing space, the ref would've called the foul. The ref was right there! But the ref didn't take his bait and you shouldn't either.

What do you define the "landing space" as? 360 degree around the player? Stop this ridiculous non-sense.

Watch the replay again, neither player touched each other. Payne was in a falling position.

Beverley quite obviously invaded his landing space. That's a no go situation and he knows better for sure. What we're talking about here is someone trying to excuse a pattern of behavior as aggressive defense when it's pretty clear that's not what's on display here.

Officials blow calls ALL THE TIME, even if they're right on top of the play. That much is abundantly clear and has happened time and time again with no change in sight. Until the league institutes some kind of automated officiating, it'll continue. Humans are fallible. Just how it is.

The offensive player has to be able to come down safely after their jump. The rules clearly state that a defender must allow that player to land and undercutting that space is a foul. Here are a few examples from the NBA's own site:

https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/defenders-undercutting-airborne-shooters/

The defender doesn't have to touch the offensive player for it to be a foul. It's been called the "Harden Rule" or the "Zaza Rule" and it's been in effect for quite some time:

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/boston-celtics/nba-adds-harden-rule-and-zaza-rule-players-safety

Per your own clip, the official should have made the call as Beverley didn't allow him to land safely and undercut him. But, alas, to err is human and play continued on. What he did wasn't a "basketball play".

[SkyBill40]

How about this one, where Ayton clearly is in Embidd's "landing space".

https://youtu.be/8dwhAjhLGL4?t=503

Based on your argument, the refs are blowing a lot of calls.

If he was actually in the Payne's landing space, the ref would've called the foul. The ref was right there! But the ref didn't take his bait and you shouldn't either.

What do you define the "landing space" as? 360 degree around the player? Stop this ridiculous non-sense.

Watch the replay again, neither player touched each other. Payne was in a falling position.

Officials blow calls ALL THE TIME, even if they're right on top of the play. That much is abundantly clear and has happened time and time again with no change in sight. Until the league institutes some kind of automated officiating, it'll continue. Humans are fallible. Just how it is.

The offensive player has to be able to come down safely after their jump. The rules clearly state that a defender must allow that player to land and undercutting that space is a foul. Here are a few examples from the NBA's own site:

https://videorulebook.nba.com/rule/defenders-undercutting-airborne-shooters/

The defender doesn't have to touch the offensive player for it to be a foul. It's been called the "Harden Rule" or the "Zaza Rule" and it's been in effect for quite some time:

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/boston-celtics/nba-adds-harden-rule-and-zaza-rule-players-safety

Per your own clip, the official should have made the call as Beverley didn't allow him to land safely and undercut him. But, alas, to err is human and play continued on. What he did wasn't a "basketball play".

The two players jumped straight up and came down the same. Could their feet become entangled? Sure. Did they? No. He didn't run at Embiid to make a hard close of the gap, seeing there really wasn't one because of their immediate positioning, as there was with the Payne play with Beverley running at him and then stopping in his landing space. No reasonable need for a call on this Ayton play at all. Even bringing this up is pretty comical.

Look, man: I don't make the rules. I merely provided evidence from the league which stipulates what is and isn't seen as a play which would be deserving of a foul call. Beverley got away with one there. Players get away with fouls on the nightly. The difference here is that Beverley's actions were reckless and could have resulted in an injury and had it, he would likely have been teched up or ejected as it was deliberate.

I already covered the part of officials missing calls. Made it quite clear in my first comment. Did you just overlook that on purpose?

[lilfishi22]

The professional ref clearly didn't think so.

So are you saying the landing zone includes few feet where the player lands? Because Payne clearly ain't shooting backwards.

The "land zone" is pretty cleared in my screen cap. Payne had plenty of it.

If the play wasn't called a foul, then it wasn't a foul. And you are not arguing whether it was dirty or not... then what are you arguing here?

Beverley quite obviously invaded his landing space. That's a no go situation and he knows better for sure. What we're talking about here is someone trying to excuse a pattern of behavior as aggressive defense when it's pretty clear that's not what's on display here.

So we're in agreement that PatBev was in Payne landing space and it should've been called a foul. That's what I'm trying to establish here because lonea clearly doesn't think so

I'm not arguing whether it was dirty or not because I'd have to establish there was intent to injure but it could have been dangerous nonetheless

And we know professional refs miss obvious calls all the time, even after reviewing it on the replays. Just because the ref doesn't call a foul doesn't mean there wasn't one there. I'm arguing that it should have been a foul because PatBev was clearly in his Cam's landing zone. Even if you think Payne was baiting for a foul by flaring his leg (I don't think he was), PatBev was still in the space of Payne's "original" landing space.

Your argument of the landing zone literally being the size of Cam's feet wherever he lands might fly pre-2019 (or whenever that rule came about) but we've seen thousands of these calls being made now and it's clear this was a missed call.

Yawn

[RunDogGun]

"professional refs would have made the call if it was a foul"

It was a foul, and Bev does this all the time. He is a goon, and always pushes the line to dirty. Charging at Booker at the end of the game, is an example of this. If he had just slipped after he made a full sprint towards Booker, he could have taken out Booker's leg. Just one slip. He is a dirty player, and the evidence is large.

I can't believe anyone is arguing that Bev was not in Payne's landing space. The way Payne shoots, its nearly impossible for him to kick his legs out to make an unnatural shooting move. He shoots with his legs almost sideways, while shooting forward. It is just physically impossible to shoot that way, and kick his legs to the right, especially from the three point line.

[lonea]

Yep... everything is "dirty" according to you

:lol: "professional refs would have made the call if it was a foul"

It was a foul, and Bev does this all the time. He is a goon, and always pushes the line to dirty. Charging at Booker at the end of the game, is an example of this. If he had just slipped after he made a full sprint towards Booker, he could have taken out Booker's leg. Just one slip. He is a dirty player, and the evidence is large.

I can't believe anyone is arguing that Bev was not in Payne's landing space. The way Payne shoots, its nearly impossible for him to kick his legs out to make an unnatural shooting move. He shoots with his legs almost sideways, while shooting forward. It is just physically impossible to shoot that way, and kick his legs to the right, especially from the three point line.

[lonea]

I mean... by your standard of "landing zone". Then all attempts to block any shot is always a foul.

Yawn...

The professional ref clearly didn't think so.

So are you saying the landing zone includes few feet where the player lands? Because Payne clearly ain't shooting backwards.

The "land zone" is pretty cleared in my screen cap. Payne had plenty of it.

If the play wasn't called a foul, then it wasn't a foul. And you are not arguing whether it was dirty or not... then what are you arguing here?

So we're in agreement that PatBev was in Payne landing space and it should've been called a foul. That's what I'm trying to establish here because lonea clearly doesn't think so

I'm not arguing whether it was dirty or not because I'd have to establish there was intent to injure but it could have been dangerous nonetheless

And we know professional refs miss obvious calls all the time, even after reviewing it on the replays. Just because the ref doesn't call a foul doesn't mean there wasn't one there. I'm arguing that it should have been a foul because PatBev was clearly in his Cam's landing zone. Even if you think Payne was baiting for a foul by flaring his leg (I don't think he was), PatBev was still in the space of Payne's "original" landing space.

Your argument of the landing zone literally being the size of Cam's feet wherever he lands might fly pre-2019 (or whenever that rule came about) but we've seen thousands of these calls being made now and it's clear this was a missed call.

Yawn

[lonea]

Sigh.. first you claim that he's a dirty player. Now keep saying the ref miss calls.

Yea, you are always finding one excuse after another.

I already covered the part of officials missing calls. Made it quite clear in my first comment. Did you just overlook that on purpose?