Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22
handsome salary wrote:Monty is a very nice man but this is now the 4th straight series (going back to the Clippers) where most would say he's been outcoached. There's probably going to be a fall guy and it's either Ayton or Monty. I'd keep Ayton even at a high salary. Let's move on from the "I love these guys" locker room and into pros being pros.
lonea wrote:LOL, that's a hot take. But sure.
I'm sure 29 other teams are scared of Ayton offensive abilities
Slim Charless wrote:Amare couldn't hold Ayton's jock if they both played each other.
lilfishi22 wrote:More than ever....we are in the championship or bust endgame
lilfishi22 wrote:King4Day wrote:Not a Pat Bev fan but this is a really good segment and at the 5 minute mark, he brings up what we've all been saying
I will never like Pat Bev but what he's speaking is truth.
The biggest Alonzo gif moment was when he talked about being benched in order to win a game but no one remembers the benching because they won the game. And then the kicker, the cherry on top was when he mentioned if Ty Lue was in Monty's position, he would've made the call and the right call would've been to sit CP3.
I think Monty is a really good coach and those calling him mediocre don't know what an actually mediocre coach is but there's very clearly and obviously levels to this. There's levels to NBA players, levels to NBA GM's and levels to NBA head coaches.
You got mediocre coaches who move on after a season or two (e.g Boylen, Watson) because obviously they just can't coach. You have the majority group of poor to sometimes above average coaches who stay on for 3-5 years, sometimes have a great season and then move on (Dwayne Casey, Thibs, McMillan). And then you get your consistently above average to great coaches who will have a good to great regular season record and stay on until they've worn out their welcome because of the lack of playoff success, I think Monty is in that group but time will tell, I think Snyder is in that group and I still think Doc is in this group. But then you have your elite coaches who aren't just regular season coaches but elite tactician in both the regular season and the playoffs and I put guys like Spo, Lue, Nurse, Pop and Kerr in there.
To say Monty is mediocre because he's not Lue, he's not Spo, he's not Nurse is ridiculous to me.
Revived wrote:MrMiyagi wrote:sunskerr wrote:Ayton is a role player and at this point does not project to be a star because of his limited offensive skill set. Same with Bridges. Try not to blow the cap on these guys. If they leave, oh well.
Bridges is already locked up.
Change the sig man come on unless you still seriously believe that. And I don’t know if you believe in jinxes or not but considering the whole “Don’t give up on Bender/Chriss” thing, please consider not putting any Suns player on there.
Maybe put something like “Suns will never win a championship ever” and maybe that will backfire in our favor.
MrMiyagi wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:King4Day wrote:Not a Pat Bev fan but this is a really good segment and at the 5 minute mark, he brings up what we've all been saying
I will never like Pat Bev but what he's speaking is truth.
The biggest Alonzo gif moment was when he talked about being benched in order to win a game but no one remembers the benching because they won the game. And then the kicker, the cherry on top was when he mentioned if Ty Lue was in Monty's position, he would've made the call and the right call would've been to sit CP3.
I think Monty is a really good coach and those calling him mediocre don't know what an actually mediocre coach is but there's very clearly and obviously levels to this. There's levels to NBA players, levels to NBA GM's and levels to NBA head coaches.
You got mediocre coaches who move on after a season or two (e.g Boylen, Watson) because obviously they just can't coach. You have the majority group of poor to sometimes above average coaches who stay on for 3-5 years, sometimes have a great season and then move on (Dwayne Casey, Thibs, McMillan). And then you get your consistently above average to great coaches who will have a good to great regular season record and stay on until they've worn out their welcome because of the lack of playoff success, I think Monty is in that group but time will tell, I think Snyder is in that group and I still think Doc is in this group. But then you have your elite coaches who aren't just regular season coaches but elite tactician in both the regular season and the playoffs and I put guys like Spo, Lue, Nurse, Pop and Kerr in there.
To say Monty is mediocre because he's not Lue, he's not Spo, he's not Nurse is ridiculous to me.
Monty trusts his players too much, and it's hard to fault him with the way this group had played for the past 190ish games.
lilfishi22 wrote:More than ever....we are in the championship or bust endgame
bisme37 wrote:Sorry about the game last night, Suns friends. That was just stunningly brutal and you didn't deserve it. Suns will be back!
SkyBill40 wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote: *** snip ***
As much as I would include your well written post... I didn't want the ol' "wall of text."
Anyway... I think you're being a tad bit optimistic when expecting any of those teams giving us a top 4 pick in any trade. I just don't see it happening. Ayton being drafted first was a bit much and even though he can be a regular 20/10 guy doesn't mean they're going to reward us for giving him up that easily. While I would fully expect the Suns to demand a high first in return, it doesn't mean they're going to get it.
dremill24 wrote:SkyBill40 wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote: *** snip ***
As much as I would include your well written post... I didn't want the ol' "wall of text."
Anyway... I think you're being a tad bit optimistic when expecting any of those teams giving us a top 4 pick in any trade. I just don't see it happening. Ayton being drafted first was a bit much and even though he can be a regular 20/10 guy doesn't mean they're going to reward us for giving him up that easily. While I would fully expect the Suns to demand a high first in return, it doesn't mean they're going to get it.
And that doesn't even take into account the other pieces. Top 4 pick AND Giddey? Top 4 pick AND WCJ/Anthony? Top 4 pick AND Grant? That would be quite generous in their part lol
lilfishi22 wrote:Ghost of Kleine wrote:lilfishi22 wrote:I can let last season slide because we just didn't physically have the size to take on the Buck's front line (even though Mids and Holiday both torched us)
But this series is different. On paper, we had all the players we need and more to beat a Mavs team. We showed that in G1 and 2. Then Kidd adjusted and Monty had literally zero answers for it.
A few of us on here never really bought into the over the top Monty hype though. I for my part as well as others have throughout the whole season questioned his ability in being able to actually step up, adapt, be mutable with his rotations, utilize timeouts correctly, properly utilize his personnel correctly to get the most out of their abilities, instill basic basketball principles such as team rebounding and boxing out! Or defensive communication when flaring out and actually defending the perimeter.
How about holding his players accountable and being able to motivate them and inspire a sense of urgency in critical situations?
But the problem is that this is just who Monty is. Even back to his New Orleans days, He's the nicest most decent human being you'll ever meet. And in most circumstances, he's the most player friendly coach that you could hope for too. But here's the unpleasant reality. Monty just doesn't have that fire to really take our team to the next level in the playoffs. Now I'm going to share an even more inconvenient truth that might upset many here, but it needs to be heard!!!
Monty Williams isn't a good coach. He's a nice guy, but really overall he's a mediocre coach at best. The big secret which will eventually be discovered by everyone is actually that his success as a coach is directly tied to Chris Paul being the actual on court coach making him look good and successful. When Paul started falling off ( both in the finals and in this playoff series) and couldn't really dominate as a floor general/ player- coach himself) Monty has gotten continually exposed by lesser deemed coaches. It's actually Chris Paul whose done the bulk of the coaching from the floor and sidelines too.
This should be more transparent now than ever before. IF we choose to keep " nice guy" " immutable short rotations Monty" then we really need a passionate strong, dominant motivating presence on the bench with him to help offset his passivity and inability or blatant unwillingness to properly utilize his roster or basic coaching fundamental principles. Our embarrassing season collapse is at the very least 70% on him directly for not setting our players up to be successful in the situations. He also rightfully needs to own the majority of the blame as the formal leader of this team.
The players individually own the other 30% as they're supposed to be professionals and the very best of the best in the world as nba players playing at this level. And they get paid absurdly well to provide the very best product/ effort on the floor each game! IF NOT, then why are they getting paid millions upon millions (more than any of us will ever see in our lifetime) to not even show up?? There absolutely HAS TO BE ACCOUNTABILITY! Can anyone say that AT ANY OTHER JOB if an employee didn't even show up for work or came to work and did nothing, that it would be excused or they would simply get a pass?!?!?!
Again, it starts with Monty and trickles down to our players. Monty although a really nice guy and great human being just doesn't have the necessary fire/ passion, tenacity or aggression to get/ keep our team motivated when needed or to even hold them properly accountable. He's also the lesser defensive version of Mike D' Antoni in his rigidity and unwillingness to play beyond his primary rotation starters, thusly rendering any tangible depth useless. Moreover burning out our starters faster and prematurely to achieve our postseason goals.
We need to upgrade our coaching bench significantly. We need to upgrade our roster with actual greater length, elite athleticism and youthful energy and tenacity. We need to add tenacious, high energy, gritty players that are actually hungry and are relentless! We need to be more openminded to the draft and actually investing ( as other top teams do) in it and even 2nd round undiscovered talent that c as n be had at a significant discount. Our franchise has chosen to discount/ neglect young talent for the premise of vet experience. But you know what, established veterans can often be complacent as they've achieved financial security and no longer feel that they have anything to prove!!!
Many young players though, especially those in the 2nd round on unguaranteed contracts do have that fire and aggression trying to prove that they belong and work to achieve that security too. They also can offer significantly more relentless energy and tenacity than some more established and borderline washed veterans that have played heavy minutes for too many years and are frequently just going through the motions from burnout and apathy. This offseason is gonna be very dramatic and a huge barometer for our future. AND the entire league will likely be watching as will our fanbase.
I never thought Monty was an elite coach but credit where credit's due, he's not mediocre but he's not one of those upper echelon coaches like Lue, Spo or even Kidd has eclipsed him. You can criticise a lot about Monty but to say he's a mediocre coach is entirely rhetoric. You can't tell me actually mediocre coaches like Jim Boylen or Earl Watson are on the same level as Monty.
Preacher162a wrote:I had to process this loss. I don't post much but I'm here everyday reading.
The game plan clearly changed. We did a hell of a lot more ISO ball during both series. Mostly because of the inbound pressure. We did not run our .5 motion offense. We gave up on our defense schemes. We gave up, in both series, our clear advantage of our big's. We clearly stopped feeding our bigs in the p/r in favor of hero ball. By giving up our motion offense we hurt our role players like both of the Cams and Bridges by getting them involved. (I won't say Sham) We also shortened our bench so much that our energy guys had no rhythm if and when they played. And they usually did not play.
We never called a time out when other teams went on runs to adjust because there was no separate game plan. None. I've seen people ask, myself included, why no time outs? Because Monty refused to or did not have any other game plan. Zero. Cant adjust to crooked refs in games 4 and 5 if you only have one plan. Same with the first series. Can't adjust to pressure on Paul if he's the only plan.
The loss isn't on one player. This is on the coaching staff. That's all. Yeah Monty can't put the ball in the hoop. But he should be able to make adjustments so his players can.
Ghost of Kleine wrote:dremill24 wrote:SkyBill40 wrote:
As much as I would include your well written post... I didn't want the ol' "wall of text."
Anyway... I think you're being a tad bit optimistic when expecting any of those teams giving us a top 4 pick in any trade. I just don't see it happening. Ayton being drafted first was a bit much and even though he can be a regular 20/10 guy doesn't mean they're going to reward us for giving him up that easily. While I would fully expect the Suns to demand a high first in return, it doesn't mean they're going to get it.
And that doesn't even take into account the other pieces. Top 4 pick AND Giddey? Top 4 pick AND WCJ/Anthony? Top 4 pick AND Grant? That would be quite generous in their part lol
Lol! How many trades do you know that start low when surrendering a franchise near max level super-efficient center with top 5 potential ceiling and the ability to guard all over the floor. You start high to try and secure the best overall return rather than depreciating your own assets' value openly. Also remember the next part wherein I stated If the Thunder don't want to include Giddey, NO BIG DEAL! Again you start with a rich offer to try and secure the highest value return. If there DO HAPPEN TO BE teams that aren't willing to surrender solid value, then we can always go elsewhere OR simply match his offer and hold him for potential trade later. It's funny to me that some on here so consistently choose to undervalue our core assets that many other teams would love (despite our recent team collapse). I don't know if it's more a product of a defeatist attitude that stems from being a suns fan, or just being disillusioned by recency bias?
tell me, what stars or even high-end talent have the Thunder managed to secure yet in spite of all of their young talent and assets?
What happens as those assets eventually expire with nothing tangible to show their fanbase for it to date? Who are they even in conversation to get? How often do people think a #1 pick and potential elite top 10 center with top 5 potential actually become available? If Giddey is really such a sticking point in a hypothetical value gap here, then leave him out please! It's not as if trades are immutable and are not fluid until they're completed. There are honestly a number of quality guard options with size in the upcoming draft, well into the 2nd round and even into the undrafted range too. Giddey as inclusionary is a high starting point to seek maximum value in the deal. He's not at all a make-or-break piece here! The make-or-break piece in any Ayton deal for me is a top 4 pick for the purpose of drafting Jaden Ivey. Anything beyond that is clearly the additional value that can be negotiated.
** Also, Do you honestly see WCJ as having significantly more value than Ayton? Do you think the majority of the league would see WCJ as having significantly more value than Ayton? What about perceived upside too? does anyone honestly think that WCJ actually has a higher upside value than Ayton? What about Cole Anthony? sure he's currently their starting guard but look at his stats, aside from the free-throw line 39% FG/ 33% 3PT. He's scoring on volume sure, but he's not been a world-beater by any means. AND the Magic still have at least 5 guards in their current stable. And Fultz and Suggs were both drafted higher than he was too. So at some point, they might prefer to try and get value out of those high-end investments don't ya think?
As for the Detroit trade, Did you not see the Cam Johnson and a future first inclusion?? You don't think that getting Ayton/ Cam Johnson and a future 1st is fair to good value for a player that's going to be able to otherwise leave for nothing in free agency (likely to Portland, Utah, or maybe even Golden state)? Maybe you're right though, Maybe they much rather get nothing as opposed to Cam Johnson and a 1st for him!
BlueSan wrote:Oh boy I was not expecting this guys. You have a great team real dragons breathing fire. But we just slew you like in some fairytale.
I think next season you come back extremely strong with an added point guard
More likely this team gets blown up and Booker is playing in Minnesota. Neither is going to happen though.BlueSan wrote:Oh boy I was not expecting this guys. You have a great team real dragons breathing fire. But we just slew you like in some fairytale.
I think next season you come back extremely strong with an added point guard
garrick wrote:We sacrificed Ayton's development in favor of team success but we needed to strike a balance between getting wins and planning for the post season.
If we do keep him and I do hope we do this is one major thing we need to change going forward.
