Regarding Pace and the Phoenix Offense

[tsherkin]

Hey guys,

I've been reading a bunch of garbage all over the various boards about how Shaq's presence will impact the pace of the team this and the flow of the offense that and what-not, so I thought I'd share something with you that I mentioned to NO-KG-AI in a PM not too long ago:

t'll depend on his health, no question, but I'm inclined to point out that the Showtime Lakers, who were well known for their fastbreak, finished with the following pace numbers during Magic's pre-95/96 career:

79-80: 8th (title)
80-81: 8th
81-82: 4th (title)
83-83: 10th (Finals)
83-84: 6th (Finals)
84-85: 8th (title)
85-86: 10th (Conference Finals)
86-87: 10th (title)
87-88: 11th (title)
88-89: 12th (Finals)
89-90: 20th (63 wins, 2nd rd appearance)
90-91: 25th (Finals)

So they won a title being outside of the top 10 in pace and were actually generally in the bottom third of the top 10 for the most part. They made the Finals being 25/27 in pace, too.

The Lakers had a great fastbreak but they made significant use of halfcourt sets as well.

The Showtime Lakers are the iconic transition offense and yet...

Look at that; they finished above 8th in the league in pace only twice in a dozen years and in fact finished 10th or lower in 7 of those years. They even made the Finals as the 3rd-slowest team in the league in Magic's last year before his first retirement.

The years they won titles, they were 8th, 4th, 8th, 10th and 11th.

I don't think Shaq will slow Phoenix down so much as to drop them out of the top 10 in pace and that actually puts them in a favorable spot; slow and methodical enough to be a patient and effective halfcourt (playoff) team (and this isn't news, Amare/Nash is a deadly halfcourt option and Shaq will find shooters all over the place if he's healthy) and improved enough on D and rebounding (at both ends) to similarly increase their efficacy in a playoff environment.

I think this should be looked at as a positive development, for sure.

[dm17415]

tsherkin - I've always enjoyed reading your posts and its a pleasure to have someone of your knowledge around here shutting down the haters.

[tsherkin]

tsherkin - I've always enjoyed reading your posts and its a pleasure to have someone of your knowledge around here shutting down the haters.

I just thought I'd bring it up, you know; give you guys some ammo to use against the teeming masses of ignorant and casual fans who make arguments on topics about which they know so very little. It bugs me when they perpetuate ridiculous myths, especially in efforts to attack teams I especially enjoy.

[rsavaj]

Thank God for you tsherkin, or else I probably would have OD'd on antidepressants by now. You're keeping me positive about this.

[Joe Kleazy]

It hard to compare lugging the frame of shaq around to Kareems.

As good as nash is HE AINT NO MAGIC

Yall still traded a Lambourgini for a Expedition with a lawn mower engine. D Antoni will be pushing the S*** out of that priming button.

[Biff]

It hard to compare lugging the frame of shaq around to Kareems.

As good as nash is HE AINT NO MAGIC

Yall still traded a Lambourgini for a Expedition with a lawn mower engine. D Antoni will be pushing the S*** out of that priming button.

As good as kobe is HE AINT NO JORDAN.

Kareem was a terrible rebounder in his last few years in the league. We'll be fine. The league isn't as strong as it was back then. We don't need to be as good as the Showtime Lakers to win it all.

Funny how many Lakers homers come over here talking smack. Why so interested?

[KPCB34]

tsherkin - I've always enjoyed reading your posts and its a pleasure to have someone of your knowledge around here shutting down the haters.

I agree

Its a pleasure to have you round tsherkin and read your posts.

[tsherkin]

Thank God for you tsherkin, or else I probably would have OD'd on antidepressants by now. You're keeping me positive about this.

Hey, I try.

It hard to compare lugging the frame of shaq around to Kareems.

You understand Kareem was 300 pounds or so by the time he finished his career, right? And that he played until he was 41?

You further understand that in Kareem's last three years, he 18/7, 15/6 and 10/4.5, right? That he was considerably worse on the offensive glass, a lot less efficient from the floor, playing as many or fewer minutes and connecting on assists less frequently, right?

Kareem wasn't actually getting into the offense until and unless the Lakers failed to complete in the primary or secondary break, he was almost exclusively halfcourt-oriented, even moreso than is Shaq now.

As good as nash is HE AINT NO MAGIC

Yall still traded a Lambourgini for a Expedition with a lawn mower engine. D Antoni will be pushing the S*** out of that priming button.

This amounts to trolling, you understand that right? You've come to another team's board specifically for the purpose of trashing the trade they made and the players they have. Given that you've already had a 3-day, how long do you expect to continue this behavior before you're banned?

[mkot]

For the record, I don't believe Shaq will slow us down either. KT isn't fast, isn't athletic, not a runner, he didn't slow us down. I don't have the numbers now and I'm not gonig to search for any but stats tell us that KT 1) didn't slow us down offensively and 2) improved us defensively. We scored just about the same and then gave up less point. That's why I hate the KT deal, but that's moot now.

tsherkin, thanks for your good post. I'm trying to be optimistic about this whole thing. I try to get myself warming up to it...and until we see him play no one will ever know. But the comment about pecking order by Kerr is very telling. Now we shipped out two unhappy players with Banks and Marion and bring in a alpha male in Shaq. I hope this will help get it right...I think it will. Nash still a leader, but Shaq commands respect in the locker room and people look to him for leadership. He's probably the only guy you could bring in that Amare will defer respect to (he's Amare's idol). I don't think Shaq is (in a sense) #1 in the locker room over Nash. I think both of them are 1 and 1a, but Shaq is just different when it comes to this sort of thing. Now, the clear leaders are Shaq and Nash. I think Amare will be better with that and hopefully Shaq gets his ear and makes him realize the importance of playing with a guy like a Steve Nash. The comment made by him about "Amare Stoudemire is his new project" is very encouraging for me, if anything.

[tsherkin]

I would be very interested to see if Shaq tries to teach Amare how to play a legit low-post game; THAT would be a really great gift over the next 2.5 years.

[HarlemHeat37]

I would be very interested to see if Shaq tries to teach Amare how to play a legit low-post game; THAT would be a really great gift over the next 2.5 years.

not a Suns fan at all here, I've hated them for years(obviously)..but I agree with everyone in this thread(except for the one troll)..and I feel like this point is the one that is being ignored way too much..

Shaq is one of the greatest players in the history of the game, and he's always played with a high basketball IQ..he's joining a team with a great big man, who still has more potential in him..Shaq is surely going to share a lot of his knowledge with Stoudemire..this is a huge part I feel like many people are ignoring..Shaq will be effective on the floor, AND he'll be effective in mentoring Stoudemire..

[jaypo]

Hey, guys. Good to see ya, tsherkin. I think that Shaq will now be able to focus more on getting rebounds and looking for the outlet passes. He definitely won't be getting doubled as much because he now has some shooters to put the ball in the hole! He also won't spend as much time on the pine because he won't have to guard 5 men. He can focus on the little things instead of carrying the whole team. I think it will work out for both teams. Shaq needed a team with shooters at this stage of his career, and Miami needs financial flexibility and athletes. They will both be okay.

[ChocolateThundr]

Well, imo the showtime lakers won with their defense not with their offense despite how amazing the offense was

[king_of_kingz]

It hard to compare lugging the frame of shaq around to Kareems.

As good as nash is HE AINT NO MAGIC

Yall still traded a Lambourgini for a Expedition with a lawn mower engine. D Antoni will be pushing the S*** out of that priming button.

If you love LA so much, why aren't you a Clipper fans. Oh wait, bandwagoners rule of law states that you should cheer for teams that win titles. I can easily predict that your a giants fan.

As for Shaq. if he can shoot 58% with a team like the Heat, who lacks three point shooters, another big man of Amare, imagine what he can do with the talent around him with the Suns.

I still wonder if Bynum could duplicate his 63% with a team like the Heat.

We wouldn't know. As for Bynum, the guy is going to be injury prone. He was hurt in HS and will soon get a surgery on his knees. More minutes for Bynum=More Injuries to come.

[flanpaw42]

i was thinking more and like many of you have pointed out shaq will now be mentoring amare. there are very few in the game ever with shaqs footwork. if amare can get anywhere near where shaq is than it just makes amare more deadly. i also think this pairing is good like duncan and robinson was. not exactly the same but very similar

[chrice]

Well, imo the showtime lakers won with their defense not with their offense despite how amazing the offense was

I partially disagree. Sure you had defensive stalwarts like Coop and what not, but a big part of their success was their high assist/high percentage scoring. Fast breaks were part of it, but they also had amazing jumpshooting and the ability to score in the clutch.

[Tailbone]

Given that the NBA championship is the goal, and all other considerations aside, this trade can't hurt the Sun's.
Worst case scenario....nothing's changed.
Best case.....the trophy comes to Phoenix.

I'm OK with that!

[DEEP3CL]

I've been reading a lot of stuff saying the Suns can mimic the "ShowTime" era, Being a young guy back in those days I remember Cap being able to some times fill the wing on those breaks.
p
I some what agree with the theory of it but I remain skeptical only for one reason which I feel is valid, those Laker teams were deep while the Suns only play like 7 guys some nights.

Riley played like 9 guys most nights. This is just an opinion not trying to rub anybody the wrong way with this post.

I know you guys hate us Laker fans, but I just like to talk b-ball no matter who's playing.

[KJ7]

I don't think there's any issue with us going 9-deep these days with Skinner and DJ putting some mins up. In the play-offs tho I think they'll just be used as insurance in case someone gets in foul trouble.

I like Skinner and DJ as our 2 last guys in the rotation because you at least know they are gonna bring some D. They're good rotation guys. I think DJ will pip Skinner for mins purely because we are now short of perimeter defenders compared with big men (taking into account Diaw is considered a big man).

[Mr. Sun]

I know you guys hate us Laker fans, but I just like to talk b-ball no matter who's playing.

Speaking for myself, I grew up with the classic showtime lakers and they are the apple of my heart even today.

That said, I HATE the modern Lakers.

Modern Laker fans don't give guys like Goodrich a second thought.... or even the Coop.

Sad state of affairs in la la land if you ask me.