Carlos parents thought the same about him, he was a mistake. Ouch!
Ok, for real, like I said, give it time. All that is important is the playoffs. i think the west is so good, it really does not matter who you face. Home court is an advantage, but the east will get the home court advantage in the championship beacuse the east is so weak.
The Shaq trade was a mistake
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eastsidecrossover
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JohnVancouver
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-SDU- wrote:stupid thread
lets judge a team that is trying to adjust meanwhile has to face lakers celts pistons and hornets in 4 of the first 5 games since the trade
i wont judge this deal till 15 games together and even then that means nothing
this is a playoff trade, not a regular season trade
Tyler Sherkin/Real GM columnist: "Of COURSE the Suns looked bad; they played the best team in the West and the two best teams in the East in the immediate aftermath of a huge deal that notably altered their game. They had to incorporate a new player right away and Shaq hasn't even really played in two months besides these three games."
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Dexmor
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I think it all depends on the Suns checkbook. If the Suns had no intention on paying Marion what he wanted then the trade was very smart but if they were going to be able to sign Marion I think the trade was a big mistake because they sell there draft picks every year which I can never understand. They should at least trade them for a future pick for there future.
If Shaq doesn't win them a title this year it is very unlikely he will next year and after next season he is officially done.
Marion after next season will still be in his prime.
I think they needed to get a big man but to get Shaq and give up Marion wasn't smart.
It is true that they weren't going to win this year anyway and now they have a chance but how do you give up a perenial allstar who has years and years left who never misses a game for a guy with 1-2 years left who every year misses 30-40 games?
I feel like they could have done better for Marion,
The Suns also play a run and gun style which I agree Shaq will not mess up because he can throw the outlet and actually looks like he can run still but how could you have a run and gun season year in and out when you have a 35 year old a 36 year old and a 33 year old in the starting lineup.
I think now they should or really do regret not drafting players and selling the picks. I know they did it to get under the cap to sign Nash but they gave away the 6th pick in 04 which was Deng. There had to hve been another way to do it. His rookie contract started out for little.
I just don't understand a team that is so well respected, so good, so popular can be so cheap at the same time. I believe they would have a championship right now if they didn't sell all of there draft picks and they are so freaking lucky they got a steal in the secound round in straw.
They do get the Hawks pick but the Hawks are probably gonna make the playoffs but the pick should be around 17.
They should have never gave up JJ.
If Shaq doesn't win them a title this year it is very unlikely he will next year and after next season he is officially done.
Marion after next season will still be in his prime.
I think they needed to get a big man but to get Shaq and give up Marion wasn't smart.
It is true that they weren't going to win this year anyway and now they have a chance but how do you give up a perenial allstar who has years and years left who never misses a game for a guy with 1-2 years left who every year misses 30-40 games?
I feel like they could have done better for Marion,
The Suns also play a run and gun style which I agree Shaq will not mess up because he can throw the outlet and actually looks like he can run still but how could you have a run and gun season year in and out when you have a 35 year old a 36 year old and a 33 year old in the starting lineup.
I think now they should or really do regret not drafting players and selling the picks. I know they did it to get under the cap to sign Nash but they gave away the 6th pick in 04 which was Deng. There had to hve been another way to do it. His rookie contract started out for little.
I just don't understand a team that is so well respected, so good, so popular can be so cheap at the same time. I believe they would have a championship right now if they didn't sell all of there draft picks and they are so freaking lucky they got a steal in the secound round in straw.
They do get the Hawks pick but the Hawks are probably gonna make the playoffs but the pick should be around 17.
They should have never gave up JJ.
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LakersSquad
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JohnVancouver wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
Tyler Sherkin/Real GM columnist: "Of COURSE the Suns looked bad; they played the best team in the West and the two best teams in the East in the immediate aftermath of a huge deal that notably altered their game. They had to incorporate a new player right away and Shaq hasn't even really played in two months besides these three games."
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mkot
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carlos1223 wrote:You guys. Kerr didnt have to make a move. The Suns were good as they were. They would have won the whole thing last year if David Stern wasnt out to get you guys.
It's sad that the core didn't get another chance, but it was pretty obvious to me that the pre-Shaq team was pretty much done. We were close last year, but then we lost KT the next season, and teams like the Lakers added Gasol to go along with an up and coming stud center in Bynum. And then later the Spurs added KT and Stoudamire. Utah and NO had our numbers as well. So at the end, it's probably the best interest for us to make a move to try to improve in the West...a panic move, a knee-jerk move, whatever you like to call it, it's a move to try to catch up with teams that's also improving via trades or youngsters development.
At this stage, we really can't say how much we had improved or how much we had regressed, the trade did make us different - bigger inside, so I guess that's a start. I didn't like the trade when it was made, but we have him now and all I can say at this point is that - this could work out well. We'll see.
Thank you for your great work over the years, Matrix.
You're always a Sun in my heart. Ring of Honor awaits you.
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tsherkin
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Hey hey, someone quoted my article!
Anyway, let's talk stupid... as in, this thread.
3 games is a ridiculous and insufficient sample size to judge the trade. There is no escaping that fact and the fact that the Memphis game went the way it did only proves it. I stand by my point; having not played in 2 months and having to adjust to a new team with a different style, Shaq and the Suns didn't do too badly.
For one thing, everyone knew Shaq wasn't going to guard Gasol well; Gasol's a natural 4, too quick for Shaq and with too good a jumper to lay off, so that was a lose-lose situation that came about because Bynum was injured.
For another, they lost a tight game because Kobe ruined Grant Hill and Raja Bell with his scoring.
Then they beat Boston and again, the points I made are relevant; in the aftermath of a HUGE shift in chemistry, they played the best team in the league right now and the two best EC teams (including two stunning defensive squads in Boston and Detroit, and an L.A. team that has beautiful offensive chemistry).
The Detroit game was not Shaq's fault; he had some trouble with McDyess, sure, but I'd point to several other issues as much bigger problems:
Chauncey Billups vs. Nash
Rasheed Wallace vs. Amare (this was huge)
Grant Hill's goose egg
Raja Bell playing like a fairy (which is starting to become common)
Boris Diaw's total ineffectual play (also reasonably common)
Poor 3pt shooting as a team (aside from Bell, the only good thing he did)
Right, so laying that one on Shaq is ludicrous, the Suns lost that as a team.
Shaq has been rebounding, passing and drawing fouls very well even as he's learning how to be involved in a type of offense he's not played in the NBA. For a decade and a half, he's run up the court and made his way to the low post on one side or the other, he's never been a pick-and-roll or high post player and now that's into what he's transforming, at least in part. That the OP is too short-sighted to see this is a disappointing reflection on his ability to analyze basketball-related material.
He's been getting better each game. Last game, he had 11 boards and didn't play in the fourth and shot well enough (67%) to bring his Phoenix FG% up to 50 percent. He was even acceptable at the line.
This is the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time and I've seen some stunners.
Phoenix has the 4th-best record in the LEAGUE at 39-18. If, over the last 25 games they went 12-13, they'd still have 51 wins, which means they would make the playoffs. To believe otherwise is to highlight incompetence on a magnificent scale.
And Phoenix is not going to go .500 or below over the remaining 25 games. They are far more likely to threaten for 60 wins than they are to win less than 51 games.
Stop trolling.
Anyway, let's talk stupid... as in, this thread.
3 games is a ridiculous and insufficient sample size to judge the trade. There is no escaping that fact and the fact that the Memphis game went the way it did only proves it. I stand by my point; having not played in 2 months and having to adjust to a new team with a different style, Shaq and the Suns didn't do too badly.
For one thing, everyone knew Shaq wasn't going to guard Gasol well; Gasol's a natural 4, too quick for Shaq and with too good a jumper to lay off, so that was a lose-lose situation that came about because Bynum was injured.
For another, they lost a tight game because Kobe ruined Grant Hill and Raja Bell with his scoring.
Then they beat Boston and again, the points I made are relevant; in the aftermath of a HUGE shift in chemistry, they played the best team in the league right now and the two best EC teams (including two stunning defensive squads in Boston and Detroit, and an L.A. team that has beautiful offensive chemistry).
The Detroit game was not Shaq's fault; he had some trouble with McDyess, sure, but I'd point to several other issues as much bigger problems:
Chauncey Billups vs. Nash
Rasheed Wallace vs. Amare (this was huge)
Grant Hill's goose egg
Raja Bell playing like a fairy (which is starting to become common)
Boris Diaw's total ineffectual play (also reasonably common)
Poor 3pt shooting as a team (aside from Bell, the only good thing he did)
Right, so laying that one on Shaq is ludicrous, the Suns lost that as a team.
Shaq has been rebounding, passing and drawing fouls very well even as he's learning how to be involved in a type of offense he's not played in the NBA. For a decade and a half, he's run up the court and made his way to the low post on one side or the other, he's never been a pick-and-roll or high post player and now that's into what he's transforming, at least in part. That the OP is too short-sighted to see this is a disappointing reflection on his ability to analyze basketball-related material.
He's been getting better each game. Last game, he had 11 boards and didn't play in the fourth and shot well enough (67%) to bring his Phoenix FG% up to 50 percent. He was even acceptable at the line.
but at this rate the Suns wont make the playoffs
This is the dumbest thing I've seen in a long time and I've seen some stunners.
Phoenix has the 4th-best record in the LEAGUE at 39-18. If, over the last 25 games they went 12-13, they'd still have 51 wins, which means they would make the playoffs. To believe otherwise is to highlight incompetence on a magnificent scale.
And Phoenix is not going to go .500 or below over the remaining 25 games. They are far more likely to threaten for 60 wins than they are to win less than 51 games.
Stop trolling.
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MiamiHeatFan2004
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The main problem I see is that you guys are allowing 120-130 points a game with Shaq, he was supposed to give you defense in the middle.
I think you guys are worse now on D than you were before the trade as Marion is a much better defender and rebounder than Shaq is right now.
In the playoffs Shaq might help, but from what I see he is just giving more effort in Phoenix than he was in Miami, but he is still not too much better which means he won't make that much of a difference unless he has another gear once playoff time comes around(he used to have that gear, does he anymore?).
I think you guys are worse now on D than you were before the trade as Marion is a much better defender and rebounder than Shaq is right now.
In the playoffs Shaq might help, but from what I see he is just giving more effort in Phoenix than he was in Miami, but he is still not too much better which means he won't make that much of a difference unless he has another gear once playoff time comes around(he used to have that gear, does he anymore?).
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Al n' Perk No Layups!
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truth about the trade...
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mckane
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truth about the trade...
This trade wasn't made as much for defense as it was for rebounding.
This year especially, PHX has played pretty solid D, but they've been absolutely HORRIBLE on the glass. Marion grabs a ton of rebounds, but he never boxes out. What he does get, he gets from out-jumping people. Add the fact that we lost KT and we have just gotten killed inside.
Shaq boxes out and he moves people. Overnight, PHX fixed their worst problem all year (rebounding and second chance points). Unfortunately, they further exposed another problem... defense. I guess the grass is not always greener.
I'd be lying if I didn't say I was a bit worried at how bad PHX looks and how Shaq really just can't jump and finish at all around the rim. But he is helping them on the boards and opening space for Amare.
The suns plays decent on the ball defense, but their team defense is just soooo bad. They all stand around with their hands down ALL game long leaving wide lanes and open passing lanes. They mostly play tough on the ball and fall asleep off the ball. It's a lack of concentration, hustle and discipline. Maybe that will change in the playoffs...
Next time you watch PHX, pay attention to how they play off ball defense. Nobody gets their hands out in the passing lanes. They aren't causing turnovers and they are allowing easy passes and open passing and driving lanes.
It's part desire and hustle, but it's also a bigger problem with discipline and focus.
If we had Shaq for this year and next, this is a good trade. But that extra year, could really end up killing us.
This year especially, PHX has played pretty solid D, but they've been absolutely HORRIBLE on the glass. Marion grabs a ton of rebounds, but he never boxes out. What he does get, he gets from out-jumping people. Add the fact that we lost KT and we have just gotten killed inside.
Shaq boxes out and he moves people. Overnight, PHX fixed their worst problem all year (rebounding and second chance points). Unfortunately, they further exposed another problem... defense. I guess the grass is not always greener.
I'd be lying if I didn't say I was a bit worried at how bad PHX looks and how Shaq really just can't jump and finish at all around the rim. But he is helping them on the boards and opening space for Amare.
The suns plays decent on the ball defense, but their team defense is just soooo bad. They all stand around with their hands down ALL game long leaving wide lanes and open passing lanes. They mostly play tough on the ball and fall asleep off the ball. It's a lack of concentration, hustle and discipline. Maybe that will change in the playoffs...
Next time you watch PHX, pay attention to how they play off ball defense. Nobody gets their hands out in the passing lanes. They aren't causing turnovers and they are allowing easy passes and open passing and driving lanes.
It's part desire and hustle, but it's also a bigger problem with discipline and focus.
If we had Shaq for this year and next, this is a good trade. But that extra year, could really end up killing us.
Re: truth about the trade...
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tsherkin
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Re: truth about the trade...
mckane wrote:
The suns plays decent on the ball defense
With the exceptions of Amare and Nash, this is true. Amare is among the worst man-on defenders I have ever seen. Nash tries hard but simply isn't quick enough to handle the elite point guards and scoring points of the league.
I'd be lying if I didn't say I was a bit worried at how bad PHX looks and how Shaq really just can't jump and finish at all around the rim. But he is helping them on the boards and opening space for Amare.
Shaq's been getting better... he's shot 10/16 over the last two games, in case you were wondering (4/6 and 6/10), which is 62.5% FG, as opposed to teh 45.5% or so he shot in the first three games after he hadn't played for two months. Let's not get overzealous about Shaq doesn't have the lift to finish anymore.
