Bill Simmons: What if Sarver Payed the Luxury Tax

[asubennett]

Man, Bill Simmons makes me want to cry.

Bill Simmons ESPN

4. What if Suns owner Robert Sarver said, "Screw it, I'll pay the luxury tax every year?"

Well, the following three things would have definitely and unquestionably happened: The Suns would have used the No. 7 pick on either Luol Deng or Andre Igoudala in 2004 (instead of unloading that pick to Chicago for $3 million and the No. 21 pick in 2005); they would have used the No. 21 pick on Rajon Rondo in 2006 (instead of selling it to Boston for cash and the No. 27 pick in 2007); and they wouldn't have traded Kurt Thomas to Seattle along with their No. 1s in 2008 and 2010. Some people would throw in the Joe Johnson deal here (Johnson to Atlanta for Boris Diaw and two No. 1s), but that wasn't a luxury tax move; they made an effort to re-sign Johnson and he wanted to leave.

Just for the hell of it, let's give them Igoudala in that '04 draft because he's better than Deng, and they might have taken him anyway. And let's say they don't make the Shaq/Marion trade because they wouldn't have needed to dump Marcus Banks in the deal (they wouldn't have signed him if they had Rondo for one-fourth the price), and besides, they already have Kurt Thomas. Here's your 2008 Suns roster right now: Nash, Barbosa and Rondo as the guards; Igoudala, Hill and Bell at the swing spots; and Stoudemire, Marion, Diaw and Thomas up front ... as well as the rights to their No. 1 and Atlanta's No. 1 in this year's draft.

That's not even a pipe dream or an imagine-if-this-scenario-had-played-out roster. Lemme put this in caps for you, S.A.S.-style: PEOPLE, THAT WOULD BE PHOENIX'S ROSTER IF SARVER PAID THE LUXURY TAX ALL ALONG!!!!! Can you imagine? Is that the greatest 10-man rotation of all-time? Would they have won 75 games? We'll never know. What's tragic about the Suns' current situation is how close they came to being positioned for the short term and long term better than any franchise since the '86 Celtics: They would have been the runaway favorites this season, and they would have been set for an abnormally long time because of their young guys.

(Note to the Phoenix fans: You can now light yourselves on fire.)

[Mr. Sun]

Easy to say when you are not the owner paying the tax or have to make payments on over $200 million of debt.

[Sarlonus]

People realize that the Suns had the most debt in the NBA, right? Sometimes you have to make smart financial decisions. If you don't, teams risk on folding. If the Suns were not able to pay back their debt, it would put them in a worse situation.

The only bad moves were the 2004 pick (which I think had less to do with money and more to do with the Suns thinking that the Bulls would stink again in 2005). and the KT trade because it was two first with no protection. I didn't like Rondo going into the draft and I thought he would be bad. I don't fault them for that. Rondo has far exceeded expectations.

[mkot]

Sure Sarver doesn't want to pay $8 million ($16 million after tax) but that's understandable. What's unacceptable here is that Kerr had to unload KT along with two UNPROTECTED 1st rounders. If that's the best deal he can find to unload an EXPIRING contract, F him. I mean, what an unfathomable blunder by Kerr. What I especially love about the trade is that the second rounder the Suns received in return is CONDITIONAL. A CONDITIONAL SECOND ROUNDER? REALLY? How on earth can you not even manage to get an UNCONDITIONAL SECOND ROUNDER? And it's not like it would have made a difference. But it is the principle of the whole thing. Every way Seattle could screw us, they did. Kerr got owned. Everyone can quickly point at Sarver for not wanting to pay the tax, but it's Kerr job to negotiate deals and he failed big time.

Also, what about the infamous James Jones deal? While I was never the biggest James Jones fan, his low salary made his lack of contribution a lot more palatable. The fact that we had to give away ANOTHER 1st round pick just to unload his contract makes me almost as sick as the KT trade. Again, it's fine if you want to unload contract for financial purposes, I understand, but if that's the best way (throwing away picks) for Kerr to unload contracts, then he needs to be shot.

[asubennett]

Sure Sarver doesn't want to pay $8 million ($16 million after tax) but that's understandable. What's unacceptable here is that Kerr had to unload KT along with two UNPROTECTED 1st rounders. If that's the best deal he can find to unload an EXPIRING contract, F him. I mean, what an unfathomable blunder by Kerr. What I especially love about the trade is that the second rounder the Suns received in return is CONDITIONAL. A CONDITIONAL SECOND ROUNDER? REALLY? How on earth can you not even manage to get an UNCONDITIONAL SECOND ROUNDER? And it's not like it would have made a difference. But it is the principle of the whole thing. Every way Seattle could screw us, they did. Kerr got owned. Everyone can quickly point at Sarver for not wanting to pay the tax, but it's Kerr job to negotiate deals and he failed big time.

Also, what about the infamous James Jones deal? While I was never the biggest James Jones fan, his low salary made his lack of contribution a lot more palatable. The fact that we had to give away ANOTHER 1st round pick just to unload his contract makes me almost as sick as the KT trade. Again, it's fine if you want to unload contract for financial purposes, I understand, but if that's the best way (throwing away picks) for Kerr to unload contracts, then he needs to be shot.

Very well said. If Kerr had waited until February to trade Kurt Thomas he could have got Brent Barry and a first round draft pick and kept his two.

[Seattlesun]

you could make coulda/woulda arguments for every team in the nba. simmons is on a suns hater mission, stop posting his BS in here.

i would much rather the suns stay fiscally responsible to allow for future maneuvering. spending the most money doesnt win in the nba - see dallas, ny. and see SA

[OzzyAZ]

Sarver wasn't the owner when we swapped picks with Chicago, was he? Thought that was 100% a Colangelo move.

[ma_falaa_50]

there is a reason why simmons is a writer not a GM.

[mkot]

i would much rather the suns stay fiscally responsible to allow for future maneuvering. spending the most money doesnt win in the nba - see dallas, ny. and see SA

So they traded away THREE 1st round draft picks? I'm sorry but that's not an excuse to give away draft picks like that. We're getting old so fast and that's something you should NOT do.

[asubennett]

you could make coulda/woulda arguments for every team in the nba. simmons is on a suns hater mission, stop posting his BS in here.

i would much rather the suns stay fiscally responsible to allow for future maneuvering. spending the most money doesnt win in the nba - see dallas, ny. and see SA

I am as postive as they come in regards to the Suns but the enthusiasm you express above borders on complete homerism, maybe insanity.

I mean honestly, how can you justify trading Thomas and two 1st round picks that are unprotected in the offseason, when SA GAVE Seattle a first round pick and Brent Barry for Thomas the same year?

[Seattlesun]

-= original quote snipped =-



I am as postive as they come in regards to the Suns but the enthusiasm you express above borders on complete homerism, maybe insanity.

I mean honestly, how can you justify trading Thomas and two 1st round picks that are unprotected in the offseason, when SA GAVE Seattle a first round pick and Brent Barry for Thomas the same year?

because kt was not worth 8 mill + lux hit $$ for what he brings and because it is assumed that suns' 1st round picks are going to be late in the round thus producing players that are not really difference makers.

i know alot of you hate the losing of picks but a history of being a suns fan has taught me that their best teams have not been built through draft picks but through free agency and trades. we are not the bucks, nets, sonics, etc. phx has a built in luxury of being a desirable team to play for. whatever flexibility we lose with the picks, we make up for by signing guys like grant hill. i have no concerns with this team moving forward because they have financial viability and they are the Suns.

so basically, I'm arrogant.

[Seattlesun]

-= original quote snipped =-



I am as postive as they come in regards to the Suns but the enthusiasm you express above borders on complete homerism, maybe insanity.

I mean honestly, how can you justify trading Thomas and two 1st round picks that are unprotected in the offseason, when SA GAVE Seattle a first round pick and Brent Barry for Thomas the same year?

as for this, no one has a crystal ball in pro sports so to selectively pick bad moves to criticise is simply hindsight being 20-20. why not point out how great it was to draft shawn, or amare at #9? getting LB for nothing? or getting boris and a #1 for JJ when he was gonna leave anyway? or unloading banks and matrix who was gonna leave anyway and getting shaq? if you're gonna point out the mistakes, point out the correct moves. the day pro sports becomes an exact science is the day we stop watching.

and be real in regards to Deng and Iggy. NOONE thought or even guessed either would be what they have become. AND, they likely would not have become what they have on the Suns anyway.

[walkingart]

Very well said. If Kerr had waited until February to trade Kurt Thomas he could have got Brent Barry and a first round draft pick and kept his two.

very well said? If Kerr had waited till the deadline the Suns would have saved $16 million by adding Elson and Barry!!! NOPE. How many teams were under the cap and willing to take KT? Currently there are two teams below the cap. Two! Memphis and Charlotte and neither one of them is going to take on $8 million in salary even if they could get two 1st round picks in the 20's with him.

Let's face it, KT had no value and no one wanted him. Sure, he is better than Elson and some player the Spurs would have drafted and left in Europe; but that's about it. What did he ever do for us? Hold Duncan to 30 points a game without any double teams? I am sure there were better deals for KT, value wise, but I highly doubt any of them brought back $0 in salary.

Let's point our fingers at the real culprit, Bryan Colangelo! The man who OVERPAID Richardson, and then refused to give Joe a similiar extension. Richardsons' bloated contract turned into KT, and all along they should have known that Amare was going to get a max contract and they would approach the lux tax. He is also the same man who traded the #7 pick away to save as much money as possible in hopes of signing Kobe! How did that work out for him?

Let's all jump off Kerr's back and let him work his way out of all the bad contracts Colangelo and Mike D stuck him with!

[asubennett]

-= original quote snipped =-



because kt was not worth 8 mill + lux hit $$ for what he brings and because it is assumed that suns' 1st round picks are going to be late in the round thus producing players that are not really difference makers.

i know alot of you hate the losing of picks but a history of being a suns fan has taught me that their best teams have not been built through draft picks but through free agency and trades. we are not the bucks, nets, sonics, etc. phx has a built in luxury of being a desirable team to play for. whatever flexibility we lose with the picks, we make up for by signing guys like grant hill. i have no concerns with this team moving forward because they have financial viability and they are the Suns.

so basically, I'm arrogant.

Evidently you have not paid much attention to our team over the years.

Best Players the Suns have drafted 90's forward

Luol Deng (Traded)
Amare Stoudemire
Shawn Marion
Capt. Stephen Jackson (Traded)
Michael Finley
Steve Nash

Best Free Agent Signings

Steve Nash
Grant Hill
Tim Thomas
? ? ? ? Not sure who else to put here
Tom Gugliotta?
Q-Rich

Best Trades

Jason Kidd
Barkley (Ill give you that one)
Marbury (Gave Kidd to get him) Not Smart

Bottom line is the quality of players we drafter far exceed anybody we have signed in recent years. Mortgaing draft picks is fine IF they are protected. Giving up a 26-30 pick means little. Giving up a lottery pick can alter the course of a franchise.

[asubennett]

[quote="walkingart"][/quote]

Again this is homerism. Teams salivate for expiring contracts at years end. And there are quite a few contending teams with sizeable trade exceptions. If you think we could not have done better you are sadly mistaken.

[Seattlesun]

-= original quote snipped =-



because kt was not worth 8 mill + lux hit $$ for what he brings and because it is assumed that suns' 1st round picks are going to be late in the round thus producing players that are not really difference makers.

i know alot of you hate the losing of picks but a history of being a suns fan has taught me that their best teams have not been built through draft picks but through free agency and trades. we are not the bucks, nets, sonics, etc. phx has a built in luxury of being a desirable team to play for. whatever flexibility we lose with the picks, we make up for by signing guys like grant hill. i have no concerns with this team moving forward because they have financial viability and they are the Suns.

so basically, I'm arrogant.

Evidently you have not paid much attention to our team over the years.

Best Players the Suns have drafted 90's forward

Luol Deng (Traded)
Amare Stoudemire
Shawn Marion
Capt. Stephen Jackson (Traded)
Michael Finley
Steve Nash

Best Free Agent Signings

Steve Nash
Grant Hill
Tim Thomas
? ? ? ? Not sure who else to put here
Tom Gugliotta?
Q-Rich

Best Trades

Jason Kidd
Barkley (Ill give you that one)
Marbury (Gave Kidd to get him) Not Smart

Bottom line is the quality of players we drafter far exceed anybody we have signed in recent years. Mortgaing draft picks is fine IF they are protected. Giving up a 26-30 pick means little. Giving up a lottery pick can alter the course of a franchise.

A) there is no one on this planet that has paid more attention to this team than me over the years so do not go there.

Draft picks:

Shawn: Great Sun, got us Shaq
Amare: Great Sun
Jackson: A nothing player at the time and nothing for several years after leaving the Suns. Credit him for working hard, but also realize he is an idiot.
Finley: Great Sun, turned into Jason Kidd
Nash: Drafted while Suns had KJ and Kidd and was nothing more than a good shooter. Traded for a pick that became Marion. GREAT move.

FA's:

How about the first EVER - Tom Chambers. Reinvigorated a franchise. Penny was one of the original sign and trades, didnt work out perfect but a tremendous move at the time. Ever heard of Danny Manning, Wayman Tisdale? Steve Nash = 2XMVP. Sorta good signing

Trades:

Larry Nance for Kevin Johnson, Mark West, Ty Corbin and a pick that became Majerle??? Horny and Trash for Chuck? Kidd for Steph had to happen if you were in tune to the team at the time. But Steph and Penny for cap space that became Nash? again 2XMVP. JJ gonna leave anyway, but now we have a lottery 1st round pick this offseason? Matrix and a bad contract for Shaq? Love the move right now - Shaq has brought a look we needed and Matrix was gone anyway. Banks was a bad contract. KT was a bad contract also, when he played, we lost. Look it up. Why pay 10+mill for a guy that you lose when he plays?

There has been the bad, Gilliam, Bedford, DJ for Roby. But again, in pro sports you make decisions based on where you are at the time and nothing is guaranteed. You make moves and hope for the best, some of the Suns' moves during the last few years have not worked out by I support the moves because I believe they are motivated by a desire to win now and a desire to be fiscally responsible which i greatly support.

[ma_falaa_50]

All I know is when LBJ becomes a free agent Shaq's 20 million is off the books. Steve nash's salary is off the books.

Right now Steve Kerr has done 2 things put Marion in his place by telling him the suns wont overpay for his services. Second, trading for a TRUE center which was something the "great colangelos" never did.

I dont know what the future holds for Kerr but telling Marion to shut it and just play and trading for Shaq is pretty ballsy. If it doesnt work out no one can really say Kerr didnt try. As for trading picks, this is the first time in like 3 yrs we actually drafted guys and kept them so I dont see what you guys are whinning about.

You guys wanted a big man, Kerr got Shaq. you wanted FA they went after barry. This current FO has done pretty much evrything the fans thought they needed. Get of their backs man!!!!!

last time I checked Sarver paid Amare, steve, Boris big bucks because they wanted them and I know what happened to shawn and JJ but both guys were more about being a star than being great players.

I loved Marion but when he inked his big money deal his shooting has gone down and he basically was stuffing his stat sheet. Shaq pretty much grab the same amount of boards that shawn has been getting but somehow the suns were always outrebounded.

[mkot]

How can anyone defend the KT trade? KT doesn't worth $8 million, yes I don't disagree, so they do whatever to dump his contract? If that's the attitude they'll have from here on, we're f**ked. How can you give up two first round picks to trade away a player in the last year of his contract? Those are COMMODITIES in this league. The fact that we had to give away TWO UNPROTECTED draft picks to unload an expiring contract is crazy. I'd have given a 2nd rounder with one 1st rounder, but NOT two first round picks.

No team in NBA history has sold picks for cash like the Suns have the past decades (that's including the Colangelos) and I absolutely hate it. And you don't need to tell me how poor Sarver is because I've defend the guy on this board countless time. I understand why he does what he does, but that's doesn't mean what he's done is right/smart moves. I know teams do throw away draft picks for various reasons but probably not at our pace. For instance, Detroit drafted Darko with the #2 overall in 2003 they got in 1997 (2010 pick could have a similar effect..) from Memphis in the Othis Thorpe trade, or our Amare, selected with our own pick, but after we got it back in the Bo trade, since we sent it to Orlando in the Penny move. Still, the strategy of using multiple picks to unload contracts is not used by a lot of teams besides the Suns - Googs, Jahidi White, JJones, KT... 6 picks in total.

I don't believe trading the Deng/Iggy had anything to do with our free agent signings that offseason. You're talking about a rookie salary of roughly 2-2.5 mil. And if we had Iguodala or Deng, its questionable whether we'd have needed Q for $48M. We should've had Q and Deng/Iguodala. Even BC admitted the suns screwed up. They traded the pick not for more money, but because they didn't think Iguodala would be there. What really turns the knife in me is that they traded the pick the night before the draft and after Dallas moved up into the top 5. At that time, the last thing Dallas needed was a swingman and they were going for either a center (Podkolzine, a smokescreen) or a PG to succeed Nash, which they ended up taking in Devin Harris. So regardless, one of those guys would've dropped down. And if not? Whats the worse that can happen? You take a Childress? Or put the pick up for sale during the draft? I doubt anyone would've turned us down for a 7th pick.

Yes, every move is a gamble, that's why you don't just throw away draft picks like they're nothing. Deng/Iguodala, and now Rondo looks like he could be a pretty decent backup 1. When will this franchise learn? And I didn't under-estimate the looming LT bill that the Colangelos left for Sarver and Co. to clean up. The deals signed by Amare, Marion, Nash and Q-Rich mortgaged the future to a certain extent, and that led to the low-balling of JoeJ, the trade for Boris and the other cost cutting measures that followed. Sure, I'd LOVE Sarver to throw more and more money at a Matrix/Amare/KT/Nash/JoeJ line-up but that's probably what, $60-65 million right there so I'd understand. Their real problems have been letting affordable bench players and draft pick get away in exchange for short-term savings and that's not smart. Everything we've done wrong the past 3 years regarding the draft has come back to bite us in the a**. Some of us here knew it, now its just being proven. Look how the KT trade get dumber and dumber everyday and the Sonics still haven't use the two draft picks.

[Seattlesun]

All I know is when LBJ becomes a free agent Shaq's 20 million is off the books. Steve nash's salary is off the books.

Right now Steve Kerr has done 2 things put Marion in his place by telling him the suns wont overpay for his services. Second, trading for a TRUE center which was something the "great colangelos" never did.

I dont know what the future holds for Kerr but telling Marion to shut it and just play and trading for Shaq is pretty ballsy. If it doesnt work out no one can really say Kerr didnt try. As for trading picks, this is the first time in like 3 yrs we actually drafted guys and kept them so I dont see what you guys are whinning about.

You guys wanted a big man, Kerr got Shaq. you wanted FA they went after barry. This current FO has done pretty much evrything the fans thought they needed. Get of their backs man!!!!!

last time I checked Sarver paid Amare, steve, Boris big bucks because they wanted them and I know what happened to shawn and JJ but both guys were more about being a star than being great players.

I loved Marion but when he inked his big money deal his shooting has gone down and he basically was stuffing his stat sheet. Shaq pretty much grab the same amount of boards that shawn has been getting but somehow the suns were always outrebounded.

What a great post, I love you. Post more.

except, lose the fire DA thing. He is a good coach.

[ClosAZ]

^ Yep. Also, most professional teams don't go into the luxury tax zone because after all this is a business and the owners are businesss men at the end of the day. I'm sure profit margin is on top of the priority list for most owners whether its the NBA, NFL, MLB etc...

If you're a team that happens to have Steinbrenner, Cuban, etc..as your owner or in general live in a big market (NY, Boston, LA for example)consider yourself lucky because you obviously have a leg up on the Milwaukee Bucks' of the world and will overspend and not care.

Outside of selling our draft picks and not developing our young talent (falls on Dantoni here) I'm happy with the Suns management as a whole. Sure we've made some mistakes (Diaw, 9million per) but at least our management has been willing to spend the money.