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jaypo wrote:I've noticed since the Shaq trade that Phoenix fans are very very loyal to their players. However, it seems that that loyalty is stronger than their desire to produce a championship. I by no means intend to start a war here, and I'm not stating anything that I think is negative.

Ninjafish wrote:

jaypo wrote:I've noticed since the Shaq trade that Phoenix fans are very very loyal to their players. However, it seems that that loyalty is stronger than their desire to produce a championship. I by no means intend to start a war here, and I'm not stating anything that I think is negative.

No, it's true. When I was cheering for the Suns in 05 and 06 and 07, I wanted the Suns to win a championship, but more than anything I wanted these groups of guys to win a championship. These guys who were underdogs but had such tremendous heart. Suns fans developed a bond with those players. It just feels completely wrong to trade them all away to get a better chance at a championship. It's almost like we're betraying them and just tossing them aside.

I'd definitely rather have stuck with the same guys even if it means our chances would be less.

There's also no way in hell I could root for the Suns over a theoretical New York team consisting of say D'antoni, Nash, Marion, Bell, Tim Thomas, and I really don't understand how anyone who rooted for the Suns 06 team could.

Ninjafish wrote:

jaypo wrote:I
There's also no way in hell I could root for the Suns over a theoretical New York team consisting of say D'antoni, Nash, Marion, Bell, Tim Thomas, and I really don't understand how anyone who rooted for the Suns 06 team could.

jaypo wrote:I understand. I remember when Shaq was drafted, I watched the Magic for a few years and loved the team. I was devistated when Shaq signed with the Lakers. I started watching the Lakers and got used to them also. But I started to get pizzed everytime they failed to make it to the finals, and when they finally made it, they were without a few of the teammates that I grew accustomed to watching, but watching Shaq hoist that trophy made it worth it.

I would have loved to see Diaw and Bell next to Shaq, Nash, and Amare holding the O'brien trophy. But I still want to see the Suns hold up that trophy, and I can live with it if only a few of them are still in that crowd. I'd much rather see Nash, Shaq and Amare sharing the trophy with JRich instead of watching them next to Diaw and Bell with their heads down on the bench as the last game of their season ends in a 1st round defeat.

Ninjafish wrote:That's a lot of adjusting for a team that used to be one of the best in the league a few years ago. Before Kerr started working his magic.

GMATCallahan wrote:It seems as if Kerr is sort of lurching, without a consistent philosophy to guide him. For instance, he and Porter have advocated defensive improvement, but now Kerr has dealt away all the solid defenders from the '06-'07 Suns (James Jones, Kurt Thomas, Shawn Marion, Marcus Banks, Raja Bell, and Boris Diaw). So whereas that team at least ranked thirteenth in Defensive Rating (points allowed per 100 possessions) at 106.4, now Phoenix is down to twenty-fourth in Defensive Rating at 109.7.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2007.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2009.html
And with Bell and Diaw gone (perhaps the Suns' best defenders at guard and forward, respectively) and Richardson and Dudley replacing them, more defensive slippage is possible. So is Kerr really being guided by the notion of defense, or not? Likewise, what is the Suns' offensive identity at this point? They seem caught in the middle between running and half-court play, struggling to blend their various tactics due to the lack of a prevailing philosophy or an encompassing strategy.
Part of the reason why the D'Antoni/Colangelo philosophy worked so effectively is that they developed a vision for how they wanted the Suns play and then brought in players that could fit that vision and complement one another, starting with the signing of Nash in the summer of 2004. No one anticipated consecutive MVP awards for the former Dallas point guard, but it certainly made sense to acquire a veteran All-Star playmaker who already possessed experience in a fastbreak system and who could feed young, athletic finishers and scorers in Amare Stoudemire, Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, and to a lesser degree Leandro Barbosa. Furthermore, Phoenix then inked another player who could run, shoot, and finish in that kind of game plan, namely swingman Quentin Richardson. Under D'Antoni and Colangelo, he Suns weren't just haphazardly bringing in talented parts, but rather adding players who would particularly fit the system and vision that they were building and who would mutually enhance one another. As a result, discrete instruments melded into a collective orchestra.

Similarly, during the next summer (2005), the Suns added relatively anonymous players named Raja Bell, Eddie House, James Jones, and Boris Diaw. When they all proved successful during the '05-'06 season, some imagined that Nash had just magically turned chicken waste into a feast of chicken. The reality, however, is that D'Antoni and Colangelo targeted specific players whose shooting or passing skills would make them smart fits in the Suns' system and who would complement Nash, opening the floor for him and thus allow him to create open shots for them, which they in turn could cash into baskets. By possessing a cogent vision, the Phoenix brass managed to select just the right kinds of players needed to form an elite roster, even if those players were not flashy names.
With Kerr, conversely, I don't see any kind of coherent strategy. If the Suns are trying to be more of a defensive team, the general manager hasn't helped matters by shipping out so many of the better defenders. If the Suns are trying to be more of a half-court team, Kerr perhaps should have stuck with one of his few post-up players (Diaw) rather than acquiring a swingman who plays best in the open floor (Richardson). Instead, it seems as if Kerr is just grabbing at this and then grabbing at that, sort of like Isiah Thomas in New York and Danny Ainge in Boston prior to the summer of 2007. Thomas only sullied his name and his franchise, and while Ainge eventually figured matters out, it took him four years of struggle and some excellent fortune (Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett hitting the trade market in the same summer) before he found his way. Perhaps Kerr's rather haphazard approach will reveal some method through its madness or fortune will be on his side, but if not, he may be dragging this franchise through his own learning process.

Kenny Smith basically made this point tonight (prior to the Boston-Washington game) about the Suns' lack of identity or philosophy and how without that clarity of vision, a team doesn't really know how to acquire and assemble the right personnel.

Barkley didn't understand what the Suns were doing, either.

enigmatics wrote:Wow. Suns fans choosing players over the franchise.

These guys have had their chance and it didn't work out for whatever reason. At least somebody has the balls to take a chance and go into a different direction - one which stylistically is PROVEN to win championships.

visions wrote:I think it would take bigger balls to try and win it all with the SSOL system and show the rest of the league that you can be entertaining and still win a championship. Going down the predictable old road of the Spurs, Pistons etc is not taking any risks at all.

Also, I can understand where you are coming from with your comment about fans choosing players over the franchise but at the same time I don't think there is anything wrong with fans getting emotionally attached to certain players. It's part of following any team sport.

Why is it ok for some to bash guys and ask for them to be traded when they aren't performing but not ok for others to wish those guys were still around and want to follow their progress with their new team?
Either way the players in question have inspired some sort of emotional response in said fans.

Ninjafish wrote:What can I say? I'm a fan of teams and players, not cities.

They really didn't get much of a chance. A healthy team of Nash, Amare, Marion, Bell, Thomas, and Diaw had 1, exactly 1 year together. And we all know what happened that year.

Someone wanting to take a team that went to the WCF twice and lost to the best team the following year in controversial fashion and go in a different direction with it is someone who is incredibly stupid. The team needed to be tweaked, not changed entirely.

mkot wrote:Kerr makes moves based on what he sees, and its usually on point. $arver wanted to cut 8mil off the book so he did whatever he could to dump KT. We needed a big to counter the Gasol trade and since they weren't intend to extend Shawn, so they traded him for Shaq. We needed a backup PG to play behind Nash so he did everything he could to sign the second best PG in the draft. We needed a athletic and explosive scoring 2 so he traded two unhappy players to get us one.

I think he does have a somewhat good handle on things, but that doesn't always translate into sound basketball moves. The Shaq deal hasn't paid off, and J-Rich hasn't play a game in a Suns uni but so far he hasn't impressed me at all. He's done more bad moves than good moves that totally destroy this team now and the future so I'd say he's a moron so far.