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Hey guys,

Chad Ford just pretty much ripped the Shaq trade on ESPN.com today and pretty much blamed it for the Suns collapse.

Do you agree or disagree?

Christopher PHX: Would things be different in Phoenix if D'Antoni was still around?

SportsNation Chad Ford: (1:20 PM ET ) Maybe. D'Antoni is a great coach. But he had lost his team a bit. They needed to lose him to recognize how much they needed him. The bigger mistake was bringing Shaq in. That set the dominos in motion. Remember the Suns were atop the Western Conference standings before that trade. They've fallen apart since. Shaq's actually played really well. But the chemistry just never worked. Now Shaq wants a trade ... hilarious.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=25411

In my opinion, it's VERY unfair to blame Shaq entirely for the Suns collapse. Chad is forgetting to mention some important facts.

1. It was D'Antoni, not Kerr, who pushed for that trade.

2. The pre-trade team was just 8-12 against the top teams in the NBA last year before the big trade.

3. The Suns played VERY well towards the end of last season with Shaq by winning 15 of their last 20 games and only Boston had a better record over the last 20 games of the regular season.

4. They were a Tim Duncan 3 pointer away from winning Game 1 and getting home-court advantage against the Spurs

5. The team's best all-round player got hurt right before the playoffs and it was a CRUSHING blow.

The Duncan 3 pointer and Hill's injury destroyed all the momentum the Suns built up towards the end of last season.

Kerr, Porter, and bad luck is why the team has collapsed, not entirely Shaq.

I wish the Suns kept Diaw/Bell, made Gentry the coach from the beginning and I wish Amare never got hurt.

The team would have a MUCH better record.

This isn't Shaq's fault at all. When Shaq was traded to the Suns they won most of their games that second half of the season and had great chemistry, remember Amar'e was averaging close to 30 points that second half of the season and the Suns were playing great.

The real problem is on the other players like Bell, Nash, etc. When Porter was hired they never bought into his system, never gave him a chance and wanted him out from day 1. I wouldn't be surprised if they tanked some games just to get him fired. Sure it could be Porter's fault also that the chemistry wasn't there but if you read what was going on most of the Suns players never bought into his system.

I agree that Nash and Bell acted VERY unprofessionally by complaining so early during Porter's time as Head-Coach, but at the same time, they realized that Porter's style wasn't a good fit for the team.

Just look at how much better offensively the Suns have looked whenever they've played up-tempo this year.

They were simply stating that Porter needed to let the team run more because that's the style of play that suits the team the best.

Porter tried to fix something that wasn't broken.

They were wrong to speak out, but at the same time, I can understand their frustration.

MaryvalesFinest wrote:This isn't Shaq's fault at all. When Shaq was traded to the Suns they won most of their games that second half of the season and had great chemistry, remember Amar'e was averaging close to 30 points that second half of the season and the Suns were playing great.

The real problem is on the other players like Bell, Nash, etc. When Porter was hired they never bought into his system, never gave him a chance and wanted him out from day 1. I wouldn't be surprised if they tanked some games just to get him fired. Sure it could be Porter's fault also that the chemistry wasn't there but if you read what was going on most of the Suns players never bought into his system.

Every Suns problem according to Maryvales = Steve Nash

Would you have bought into Porter's system, or his "thinking?" He was totally lost out there and had no clue what he was doing. Let's take our greatest attribute, and make it a minus so that we look we are a better defensive team. Porter , like Kerr, greatly set this team back. At least Gentry knows the team, and how to make adjustments. Porter was brought to the brink until he would make even the slightest changes. Dude was so stubborn. The Suns were playing so well the year before, BECAUSE of D'Antoni.

What did Nash exactly say or do that would indicate to you that he wasn't giving full effort?? Please elaborate.

toucansma wrote:

MaryvalesFinest wrote:This isn't Shaq's fault at all. When Shaq was traded to the Suns they won most of their games that second half of the season and had great chemistry, remember Amar'e was averaging close to 30 points that second half of the season and the Suns were playing great.

The real problem is on the other players like Bell, Nash, etc. When Porter was hired they never bought into his system, never gave him a chance and wanted him out from day 1. I wouldn't be surprised if they tanked some games just to get him fired. Sure it could be Porter's fault also that the chemistry wasn't there but if you read what was going on most of the Suns players never bought into his system.

Every Suns problem according to Maryvales = Steve Nash

Would you have bought into Porter's system, or his "thinking?" He was totally lost out there and had no clue what he was doing. Let's take our greatest attribute, and make it a minus so that we look we are a better defensive team. Porter , like Kerr, greatly set this team back. At least Gentry knows the team, and how to make adjustments. Porter was brought to the brink until he would make even the slightest changes. Dude was so stubborn. The Suns were playing so well the year before, BECAUSE of D'Antoni.

What did Nash exactly say or do that would indicate to you that he wasn't giving full effort?? Please elaborate.

There were reports out all season before Porter was fired that Nash wasn't listening and talking back to him, remember on that national TV game in like Decemeber Nash was screaming at Porter? The main culprit was Nash along with Bell, Diaw (before they were traded) and Hill. Those four guys were causing most of the trouble.

Those were "reports" As we know they are often embellished or eve sometimes plain made up. Every team has issues, heck Nash and D'Antoni sometimes got into it. I think reports of Nash being the mutineer (is that even a word ) are way overblown.

There were reports out all season before Porter was fired that Nash wasn't listening and talking back to him, remember on that national TV game in like Decemeber Nash was screaming at Porter? The main culprit was Nash along with Bell, Diaw (before they were traded) and Hill. Those four guys were causing most of the trouble.

The one who wasn't listening to Porter was Raja; Peter Vescey is the one who reported that information.

Diaw was unhappy, but never said it publicly. However, he took some shots at Porter AFTER he was traded.

It was also revealed by one player (we don't know who) that Shaq and Hill wanted Porter gone, but those two were professional this year, played hard, and bought into the system.

However, Porter HAD to go because he had lost the team.

We had Dragic, Bell, Nash, Amare, and Barnes all complaining publicly about him, and then it was reported that Shaq and Hill wanted Porter gone too.

And Diaw took a shot at him after he was traded saying the Suns turned "into a half winning team that isn't exciting anymore" under him.

But let's get back on topic; is Chad Ford right? Does Shaq deserve all of the blame for the Suns collapse since he's come?

Should they have kept Marion despite that 8-12 record against the top teams in the NBA?

I agree with Diesel first post. good take. I also blame marion for his b****ing and whining that he did not get the max deal that he was not even worth. Look at what he is doing now?? it was a good thing we did not sign him to a max deal. Shaq has played above my expectations and should not be blamed for this teams fall out of contention. I blame the team, the organization etc for not adjusting. The problem with this team as we all knew is that they were horrible on D. Most applauded the porter signing and the players failed except for Shaq. Even if we did not let MD go, traded for shaq, this team would be only a few spots up at beast. It is over and was over last year. They do not have the right pieces to win it all anymore. Other teams have figured them out and have caught up to them and surpassed them.

The sad thing is, this team basically was were Portland is. Young exciting team with a lot of talent, got the vet leader in nash and took off. Problem is, we did not build this team in the right way. We did not draft well, we did not resign the right FA’s. We had a coach that had a great system and made the nba fun again, but was ignorant and would not play more then 6 or 7 players. We have an owner who I will say was one of the top payers in the nba, but did not want to go to far over that line to pay for it all. I don’t blame him because the head coach/moron would not pay them, so why pay for guys who sit on the bench? It’s a combination that this team went down the wrong road.

I would have never signed Q and took the draft pick that year.

I would have resigned JJ at the original rate of 50 mil

I would have drafted Rondo and Fernadez.

I would have traded for KT, but would have waited for the trade deadline where his contract was more voluble

Resigned TT

Signed Hill too, and I would have signed Raja

Nash/ rondo/barbs
JJ/ Bell/ Fernadez
Marion/ Hill
TT/ KT/Lou
Amare/ Beditris (sp) maybe Jefferson.

naah, im dreaming

Bill Simmons and Chad Ford love to criticize trades when they don't work out in the end and create crazy scenarios of "what they should have done" like they posses some kind of crystal ball. In 2004 the Suns traded their picks to clear cap room in order to sign Steve Nash and Quentin Richardson, an all-star point guard and a young swing man that just came off a career year with the Clippers. At the time they may have thought that they wanted a promising and more proven player in Richardson then say...Luol Deng or Andre Iguodala. It sounds weird right now, and to me it sounded weird in 2004, but you can argue. Then when they lost Joe Johnson they got Boris Diaw in return, Amare goes down, so they flip Richardson around into a Kurt Thomas, signed Eddie House, James Jones, and Raja Bell to add some more outside shooting at a decent price. The only thing I didn't get was why they traded Rondo and then signed Marcus Banks. At the time those two had their similarities but it wasn't like Banks proved himself in the league and Rondo was more affordable.

Looking at the above two posts is like reading my therapist's transcripts.


faulty leadership, inexperienced GM/front orfice, poor judgement of talent, arrogant owner.....

nut meet shell.

To blame Shaq is a convinient out for 4+ years of bungled manuevers

Frank Lee wrote:To blame Shaq is a convinient out for 4+ years of bungled manuevers

+1

Shaq has stayed relatively quiet considering his history. He's done what was asked of him and when we didn't need him (2nd half of last season), he took a defensive role and grabbed rebounds and defended opposing bigs while letting Amare rip. When we did need him (Porter's system and Amare's injury) he delivered. I think blaming Shaq for the way we are now just shows how short-sighted Chad Ford is.

This organization has sold picks, given away players + picks, low-balled good players and brought in terrible management and leadership. There is no way Shaq could've had a hand any of those past mistakes. If the Suns did do things right and kept and developed young talent, Shaq would've no doubt took us over the top. If anything Shaq has been good for us.

In my opinion this SSOL crap is the reason the team sucks.

Look at any of the other top teams, they are all half-court offenses and most of them are defensive minded.

You can't win it all jacking up bricks all game. It's pretty obvious.

The problem is similar to what Miami went thru. Everyone is counting on Shaq, at 37 years old, to clean up the defensive deficiency of the rest of the team. In Miami, everyone was injured, including Shaq. Opposing guards and forwards were torching the Heat, but everyone pointed to Shaq and said he quit on the team. However, opposing Centers, Yao and Dwight included rarely went off against them. It was the fact that the guards and forwards were having a clear path to the hoop, and Shaq had to foul and wound up on the bench most of the time in foul trouble. In Phoenix, he is healthy and averaging the same numbers as Yao, but a number of guards have posted career numbers against us, including Roy dropping half a century on us. Is that Shaq's fault? Is it his fault that Nowitzki dropped 34 on us the other night? Shaq scored 21 and the opposing centers didn't even break double digits as far as I know. Against the Spurs Sunday, Duncan scored 17 and Shaq scored 14, I think. However, Parker had his way with the defenders. I think he scored in the 30's, correct?

So to blame Shaq is foolish. I've been saying from the beginning that if we had a guard that was good defensively and could facilitate a normal offense efficiently, we'd be 100 times better than with Nash. People always say that Shaq never did anything to improve his conditioning or free throw shooting. Well, look at him this year. He's shooting a career high in FT% and is in the best shape of his life. Has Nash ever done anything to improve his main weakness? He seems to be getting consistently worse. Nash had a couple of good years because he had Marion cleaning up his mess on the defensive end. When he won his MVPs, Shaq should have won the 1st year and Kobe the 2nd year because (and I'm agreeing with ESPN on this) I think Shaq and Kobe were not only playing on 1 side of the ball. They both impacted the game on both ends of the court. Nash was a product of the system. We can all see that now. Shaq and Kobe were the system those 2 years. I say Chris Paul had a way better season last year than Nash had either of those years and he still didn't win the MVP.

I also blame Amare. With the physical tools this guy has, he should be at the top in rebounds and a candidate for DPOY. But he lacks 1 little thing- desire. He has not improved defensively despite being as atheletic or moreso than KG. He has not improved his rebounding. He only cares about scoring.

All that being said, before people place the blame on Shaq, they should look at the Suns' 2 main players first. Not to mention ownership!

That Game 1 Double OT loss to the Spurs was the beginning of the end. That loss ruined everything.

I STILL haven't gotten over it.

I have to agree with jaypo to a certain extent. Shaq is not the problem. Our biggest problem right now is our player rotations...........

I think the reason Ford blames Shaq is because he thinks the Suns were a better team with Marion than they are with Shaq. I think so too, but obviously you guys seem to disagree.

When I first heard the Suns were trading for Shaq, all I thought was why? they aren't going to get anywhere with him. So far I have been right.

I think the reason Ford blames Shaq is because he thinks the Suns were a better team with Marion than they are with Shaq. I think so too, but obviously you guys seem to disagree.

When I first heard the Suns were trading for Shaq, all I thought was why? they aren't going to get anywhere with him. So far I have been right.

Honestly, as much as I love Shaq, it WAS probably a mistake because the guy who really wanted him (D'Antoni) is no longer the coach.

It's unfortunate because I wanted to see what this team could with Shaq under Mike D with a training camp and a full season together because they showed a lot of promise towards the end of last season.

Unfortunately, Hill got injured and Tim Duncan hit that 3 pointer and those two things just crushed all the momentum they built up towards the end of the season.

If this team had a better coach, kept Raja and Boris, and stayed healthy, they would have a MUCH better record.

Shaq is being blamed for this collapse when it's really not his fault. His time in Phoenix has been ruined by bad luck and bad decisions.

- Grant Hill's injury

- Tim Duncan's 3 pointer

- The hiring of Terry Porter

- Trading Raja and Boris

- Lopez and Dragic have been busts so far (They should have drafted Mario Chalmers)

As Johnny Ludden said- and I posted the column which said this in another thread - the Suns have failed Shaq more than he has failed them.

He's done everything asked of him and more. He's played much better than anyone could have imagined, but he will take the blame for the collapse of the Suns.

It's Terry Porter and Steve Kerr's fault, not his.

Iputsomepantson wrote:I think the reason Ford blames Shaq is because he thinks the Suns were a better team with Marion than they are with Shaq. I think so too, but obviously you guys seem to disagree.

When I first heard the Suns were trading for Shaq, all I thought was why? they aren't going to get anywhere with him. So far I have been right.

Actually, alot of us were on the fence about the trade. On one hand we needed a big in the worst way, and there are none more dominant than Shaq, on the other hand, most people never really realized how much Marion ment to "this" team. His versatility and defense for us was unmatched. If you look at the end of last season we were on a serious roll and Amare was unstoppable. Had we continued on that path, we would be on top of the league not just the west. Had Porter not made the changes he made and left the offense alone, we would have played both styles to near perfection. So really it's hard to make the assertion that we would not have gotten anywhere with Shaq because the circumstances are different and Porter set us back quite a bit. So realistically you can't really draw a conclusion either way.........yet........