My idea for the Knicks. I want to hear what Suns fans think.

KnicksManiac · Post #1 » by **KnicksManiac** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:06 pm

I'd really like to hear what Suns fans think of this. From my encounters with Suns fans on RealGM, you guys have been respectful, intelligent, and open so I'd like to hear what you guys think of this idea for my Knicks. I italicized the part about the Suns but you kind of need to read the whole thing to get the gist of it. Keep in mind, I was addressing fellow Knicks fans when I wrote this:

As we all know, it will be VERY difficult to trade Eddy Curry and Jared Jeffries this season without giving up assets that we do not want to give up (Gallinari, for example). Let's say that we are unable to trade either one by the deadline (a very possible and pretty likely scenario).

Fast forward to the offseason. June 24th, 2010 - the NBA Draft. We watch the Jazz draft a stud with our pick and we all get upset and complain. One week later, however, it's free agency time. As LeBron said, "July 1, 2010 is going to be a very, very big day." Not surprisingly though, Eddy Curry and Jared Jeffries have picked up their player options (wouldn't it have been nice of them to decline?). But guess what? They are now expiring contracts! This leads me to my point.

If you are the GM of the team with a major free agent, you KNOW that free agent is going to leave, AND you have little or no capspace in 2010, wouldn't it be better to get something rather than nothing for your departing free agent? A trade of 2 large expirings (Curry and Jeffries) + a few assets including the Knicks' 2011 first round pick FOR the departing free agent works for both the Knicks and the other team. Let's look at a possible option:

Suns: If Amare opts out, they would have about $47 million on their cap for 2010, not nearly enough to sign any impact player. Let's say Amare tells them he is not returning. Wouldn't it make sense for them to trade a fully re-signed Amare (max deal) for two large expirings, the Knicks 2011 first round pick, and maybe one of Douglas/Hill/Chandler?

This would obviously be a tough sell for other team's fans to see their star player traded for scrub expirings + a first round pick + a prospect but the intelligent fans would understand. Technically though, even if you're Cleveland, wouldn't a package of $18 million expiring (which could later be traded for a very good player to a team looking to shed capspace or just held on to for expiration at the end of the season), a first round pick, and a prospect for LeBron be better than nothing for LeBron? Again, this would only make sense if the team KNEW their star player was leaving.

This would be amazing for the Knicks. If we can get one star player via this sign & trade idea, it would still leave us with the caproom to sign a second max player plus an extra $10 million player. Am I going crazy at 5:09 in the morning or is something like this actually feasible? (Maybe it would be more feasible if the departing free agent said that not only was he going to leave, but that he was leaving for NY. That would force the team to make a sign and trade with NY so other teams would not be able to make more competitive offers.)

Thanks for reading, Suns fans. Let me know what you think.

justinb80 · Post #2 » by **justinb80** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:17 pm

Eh, the Suns would MAYBE consider this, briefly, since they have their pick for next year. However, it makes just as much sense, if not more, to just let Amare pick up his contract option, then let him walk after the 2010-2011 season and then they'd be a hell of a lot more competitive during the season than with Curry and Jeffries and still have similar cap space.

The Suns would do a sign & trade with Amare if they knew it would bring in some young talent, such as Galinari.

justinb80 · Post #3 » by **justinb80** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:20 pm

I don't think Toney Douglas, Wilson Chandler, or Jordan Hill is enough young talent to do the trick.

justinb80 · Post #4 » by **justinb80** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:27 pm

I do ultimately think the Suns' options will be to either re-sign Amare and keep him, or do a sign & trade, since the team is much more likely to get the proper talent back in a trade than in trying to snag someone via free agency. That almost never works out when it comes to upper-tier talent.

MaryvalesFinest · Post #5 » by **MaryvalesFinest** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:29 pm

I would do it but that's because Amare's not the same player he once was though. I have a hard time seeing any team pay him the max even ones that have capspace. Some days he puts up numbers where people say, max him but most of the time he doesn't show up not to mention his injuries.

DirtyDez · Post #6 » by **DirtyDez** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:30 pm

I think they need a distributing PG who can run in Mike D's system. Luke Ridnour would be my ideal choice for NY because he will be a FA next summer who can attract bigger names and is somewhat cheap. If LBJ, WADE and BOSH don't come to NY i'd pick up Joe Johnson and trade Chandler, JJ or Curry somehow to get better players or draft picks. Amare would also be a possibilty if they have enough $.

PG: Ridnour, Douglass
SG. Joe Johnson, Hughes
SF: Chandler, Jeffries
PF: Gallinari, Jordan Hill
C: Amare, Curry

-- Lee, Harrington, Darko, Mobley, Duhon and Nate's contracts all expire this year so they could prob sign JJ and Amare to almost-max deals. Just don't see Lebron or Wade playing for NY. But i think the lineup above would make them top 5 in the East for many years. Just a though....

justinb80 · Post #7 » by **justinb80** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:33 pm

The real fix to the Knicks' problems: Mr. Walsh needs to ask Mr. Dolan for a lot of money, then pay a lot of money to a scientist to invent a time machine, then go back in time and draft Brandon Jennings instead of Jordan Hill.

KnicksManiac · Post #8 » by **KnicksManiac** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:58 pm

I agree, Dirty Dez. I good point guard is essential for us being competitive next season. I'd love to get Nash from you guys too!

I was so upset when he decided to re-sign with Phoenix last off-season. With him as our point guard, we'd be in much better shape.

Eddy Curry (11 million expiring), Jared Jeffries (7 million expiring), Wilson Chandler, Toney Douglas, and 2011 First Round Pick, 2013 First Round Pick
FOR
Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire

Nash
LeBron
Gallinari
Lee
Amare

A man can dream, right? :lol:

justinb80 · Post #9 » by **justinb80** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:06 pm

I don't think the Knicks are too far off from competing again. They do have a top-notch coach and a good GM now. Gallinari could be an all-star, and Wilson and Hill are good young talent. They'll have lots of cap space either this summer, or the summer after that to make a splash. While I don't think they'll get LeBron or Wade, they'll land someone good, whether it's Joe Johnson, Amare, Bosh, etc.

The two things that REALLY hurt: drafting Hill over Brandon Jennings, Jrue Holiday, or Ty Lawson; and NOT having their pick in the upcoming draft.

KnicksManiac · Post #10 » by **KnicksManiac** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:16 pm

justinb80 wrote:Eh, the Suns would MAYBE consider this, briefly, since they have their pick for next year. However, it makes just as much sense, if not more, to just let Amare pick up his contract option, then let him walk after the 2010-2011 season and then they'd be a hell of a lot more competitive during the season than with Curry and Jeffries and still have similar cap space.

I mentioned that this trade would only make sense if Amare wanted to leave. Obviously it would be much better for you guys if he was willing to pick up his option.

justinb80 wrote:The Suns would do a sign & trade with Amare if they knew it would bring in some young talent, such as Galinari.

I don't think Toney Douglas, Wilson Chandler, or Jordan Hill is enough young talent to do the trick.

My point was that IF Amare says he's leaving and he wants to go to NY, getting one of Hill, Douglas, Chandler plus a first round pick plus $18 million expiring would be better than getting nothing for him IMO.

justinb80 wrote:I do ultimately think the Suns' options will be to either re-sign Amare and keep him, or do a sign & trade, since the team is much more likely to get the proper talent back in a trade than in trying to snag someone via free agency. That almost never works out when it comes to upper-tier talent.

Yup, who knows? This off-season is going to be crazy.
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justinb80 · Post #11 » by **justinb80** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:19 pm

Oops, sorry. I thought you meant if he picked up his option for next season. Same deal, though. Might as well just let him walk, or sign & trade with another team. I don't think Kerr would do the deal with the Knicks unless it involved Gallinari. Unfortunately, the Knicks just don't have a whole lot of talent to trade.

justinb80 · Post #12 » by **justinb80** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:20 pm

I would be shocked if Amare opted out this summer. I personally think he'll be traded or re-signed to an extension this offseason, but if for some reason that did not occur, I think Amare would rather be the big dog available in the 2011 offseason, rather than one of a bunch of great free agents this summer.

KnicksManiac · Post #13 » by **KnicksManiac** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:21 pm

MaryvalesFinest wrote:I would do it but that's because Amare's not the same player he once was though. I have a hard time seeing any team pay him the max even ones that have capspace. Some days he puts up numbers where people say, max him but most of the time he doesn't show up not to mention his injuries.

You watch him every day and I just watch him occasionally so I have to take your word for it. He didn't look to good against the Knicks but I just assumed it was an off day.

What would you say is a better option for the Knicks at PF next season. David Lee (putting up 18 and 10 this season) at $8 million or Amare at $16 million?

justinb80 · Post #14 » by **justinb80** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:22 pm

Lee is an efficient player, but Amare is a "sexy" player and I think New York really needs a "sexy" player.

KnicksManiac · Post #15 » by **KnicksManiac** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:22 pm

justinb80 wrote:I would be shocked if Amare opted out this summer. I personally think he'll be traded or re-signed to an extension this offseason, but if for some reason that did not occur, I think Amare would rather be the big dog available in the 2011 offseason, rather than one of a bunch of great free agents this summer.

That's a good point, but SO many teams are going to be under the cap this off-season that you'd think at least one would be willing to give him a max deal. For example, if the Knicks lose out on LeBron, Wade, and Bosh, I think they would almost be forced to give Amare the max (whether I like that or not).

NashtyNas · Post #16 » by **NashtyNas** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:51 pm

I would rather play 2 cardboard cut out's of Stoudemire if he walks than have to take on Eddy Curry/Jefferies. Why would we want expirings when we could have PURE cap space? So we can earn a late 1st rounder? Hell no. Make it 1st/Lee/Hill for Amar'e/2nd and then your talking. Other than that, goodbye.

MaryvalesFinest · Post #17 » by **MaryvalesFinest** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:52 pm

KnicksManiac wrote:
MaryvalesFinest wrote:I would do it but that's because Amare's not the same player he once was though. I have a hard time seeing any team pay him the max even ones that have capspace. Some days he puts up numbers where people say, max him but most of the time he doesn't show up not to mention his injuries.

You watch him every day and I just watch him occasionally so I have to take your word for it. He didn't look to good against the Knicks but I just assumed it was an off day.

What would you say is a better option for the Knicks at PF next season. David Lee (putting up 18 and 10 this season) at $8 million or Amare at $16 million?

This year I would say he only had 3-4 games where you would look and say that guy deserves the max, for the other 21 or so games he's played good in some of them but for wanting 20M a year that doesn't seem good enough.

I think that's why he's still with the Suns because no other team thinks he's worth the max. Management has been trying to trade him for about a year so I don't think they plan to sign him to the max. I could see him walking and ending up having to take less since no one would pay him. As for Lee vs Amare, I'm not a fan of Lee or Amare these days really so the best thing I think is for you guys to Give Jordan Hill about 35 minutes per game and see what numbers he can put up, if not there are always solid bigs in the draft.

RunDogGun · Post #18 » by **RunDogGun** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:58 pm

I'm not sure how you can include a 2011 first round pick when you will be watching the Jazz take your 2010 pick. That can't happen, not two years in a row.

KnicksManiac · Post #19 » by **KnicksManiac** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:05 am

sd1306 wrote:I would rather play 2 cardboard cut out's of Stoudemire if he walks than have to take on Eddy Curry/Jefferies. Why would we want expirings when we could have PURE cap space? So we can earn a late 1st rounder? Hell no. Make it 1st/Lee/Hill for Amar'e/2nd and then your talking. Other than that, goodbye.

Because you would only have $3-$6 million of "PURE" cap space if Amare walks. That is not enough to sign an impact player. With my idea, you get a first round pick (and with the Knicks, you never know where that pick is going to be), a prospect (Chandler, Hill, or Douglas), and $18 million in expirings (no need to even attach Jared Jeffries or Eddy Curry's name to that).

Then, in the 2011 offseason, you would have 3 new first round picks (2010 Suns, 2011 Knicks, and 2011 Suns), Barbosa, Nash, one of Wilson Chandler/Jordan Hill/Toney Douglas, Earl Clark, Goran Dragic, Robin Lopez, maybe Dudley, and about $25 million in cap space. Not bad, eh?

KnicksManiac · Post #20 » by **KnicksManiac** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:07 am

RunDogGun wrote:I'm not sure how you can include a 2011 first round pick when you will be watching the Jazz take your 2010 pick. That can't happen, not two years in a row.

There is a way around that. The way it really works is "you can't trade two FUTURE first round picks in a row." So, after the 2010 draft, the Knicks will have their pick in 2011, 2012, and 2013. Since the 2010 draft would be in the past, the Knicks would indeed be able to trade their 2011 pick. Weird rule, I know.