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Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:25 am
by plonden
I got another post at my blog you might be interested in. I've quoted a couple paragraphs but there is a lot more if you click the link below. As usual any feedback is definitely appreciated.
When discussing the best shooters in the game today, two names are commonly mentioned more often than others: Steve Nash and Ray Allen. Both are proficient from virtually anywhere on the court, including from the free throw line and from downtown. They are often in the games during clutch situations and both players have an impressive portfolio of clutch shots on their resume. Even more telling, both players are often heralded for their jump shots by coaches and analysts alike.
Ultimately, discussions of great shooters ultimately lead to a few questions. Who is the better shooter now? Who has been the better shooter over the course of their career? And how does the better of the two shooters stack up against some of the other historically great shooters of the three point era? And what can we learn about the players from looking at the numbers?
Ray Allen versus Steve Nash
They are often referred to as natural shooters ostensibly because they have some innate abilities that allow them to shoot the ball at an exceptional clip. But that is only part of the story. Both Ray and Steve are renowned for their work ethic and their practice routines. Allen routinely knocks down 247 out of 250 shots before every game and credits a lot of his practice work ethic to his college coach at UConn, Jim Calhoun. Nash credits his work ethic during practices and the offseason as one of the primary reasons he was even able to be successful in the League, as he wasn’t blessed with extraordinary athleticism or size that is normally a prerequisite for NBA hopefuls.
Full Post of the League's Best Shooters at Basketball Free For All
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:28 am
by Kerrsed
Wrong link i think.
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:44 am
by plonden
Kerrsed wrote:Wrong link i think.
Nice catch. Thanks for the heads-up, Kerrsed. It's fixed now.
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:57 am
by Kerrsed
Great article, as you are a wonderful writer.
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:20 am
by Risensun
Very well written article and analysis. Quite frankly Nash in his prime is arguably the best shooter the league has seen.
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:10 am
by albasuna
Good article.
I wouldn't say Nash is the best shooter ever, or even the best shooter today. I'd say he's the best shot selector and a very efficient shooter. Very seldom do you see Nash throw up a bad shot, hence very very high shooting percentages. Ray Allen, Dirk Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, they all shoot a very high percentage even taking into account bad shot selection (contested shots) and the sheer volume of shots they take. It's hard to say Steve Nash is the absolute best shooter.
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:24 am
by MrCheckOne2
albasuna wrote:Good article.
I wouldn't say Nash is the best shooter ever, or even the best shooter today. I'd say he's the best shot selector and a very efficient shooter. Very seldom do you see Nash throw up a bad shot, hence very very high shooting percentages. Ray Allen, Dirk Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, they all shoot a very high percentage even taking into account bad shot selection (contested shots) and the sheer volume of shots they take. It's hard to say Steve Nash is the absolute best shooter.
But, me personally, I would consider shot selection being part of being a good shooter, so if you factor that in Nash is definitely at the top.
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:25 am
by MrVince
Awesome article. Good work.
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:57 am
by lilfishi22
MrCheckOne2 wrote:albasuna wrote:Good article.
I wouldn't say Nash is the best shooter ever, or even the best shooter today. I'd say he's the best shot selector and a very efficient shooter. Very seldom do you see Nash throw up a bad shot, hence very very high shooting percentages. Ray Allen, Dirk Nowitzki, Kobe Bryant, they all shoot a very high percentage even taking into account bad shot selection (contested shots) and the sheer volume of shots they take. It's hard to say Steve Nash is the absolute best shooter.
But, me personally, I would consider shot selection being part of being a good shooter, so if you factor that in Nash is definitely at the top.
There's a small bit about shot selection in the article. Being a PG, defenders expect Nash to pass (and considering his pass-first mentality, they would be right most of the time) meaning they don't tend to guard Nash as hard as they would against SG, who are expected to contribute by scoring. Nash's main role on the floor is not to score but to run the team and defending him means mainly to get into his passing lanes and deny the pass to the intended man. Stopping his scoring is not really the main priority for defenders, making Nash's role as a scorer much easier and therefore giving him more freedom and choices when considering shot selection.
Ray Allen, on the other hand, is a scorer first and distribution of the ball is not part of his resume. If he isn't scoring, his role and worth on the team is diminished so there's always the pressure on him to produce when he's on the court. He isn't paid to average 6-7 apg but to average 20ppg. This limits his options in terms of contributions to his team and that limitations allows defenders to concentrate on stopping his scoring. Since he is expected to score and defenders will do everything they can to make it hard for him, bad shot selections are inevitable. It's not unusual for SG's to have lower FG% than PG's because of the pressure they have on them to score on every possession.
I think Ray Allen and Dirk Nowitzki are tied for the best shooter among the pure scorers. Nash is still he best shooter overall however.
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:09 pm
by plonden
Thanks, fellas.
I probably could have expanded on the shot selection aspect but lilfishi22 has a nice, more in-depth explanation above.
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:23 pm
by Sandra
Last September or October, I read another article on the same subject. Discussing the best shooters in the league (Nash, Ray Allen, Dirk, Durant, Bryant, and some others; about a dozen all together), the author says that usually assisted shots are easier to make and examines the percentage of assisted shots for those players. Don't remember the numbers, but for most players on the list it varies from like 30% to 70%, IIRC. For Steve Nash, however, only about one tenth of his shots are assisted
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:27 pm
by lilfishi22
plonden wrote:Thanks, fellas.
I probably could have expanded on the shot selection aspect but lilfishi22 has a nice, more in-depth explanation above.
You got your point across, which is the important thing. My bit was just a little extra.
It was a nice read.
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:00 pm
by plonden
Sandra wrote:For Steve Nash, however, only about one tenth of his shots are assisted
That is an interesting argument as well. I may have to look into these numbers (can be found at Hoop Data) and see what they say but the argument makes logical sense to me on the face of it.
Also, for those interested I posted a link on the Celtics side too to see what they said. They were surprisingly pretty much in
agreement with my conclusions.
Here was the most common comment over there, which I more or less agree with:
Patterns wrote:Nash is a better shooter off the dribble. Allen is a better set shooter.
Nash is overall the better shooter.
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:42 pm
by watch1958
Out of all the players who shot 40%+ on 3's last year(50+ attempts), Nash was only assisted on 36% of his 3's. Next lowest, Billups at 54%. No one else under 60%. The vast majority of top 3Pt shooters (23 out of 32) were assisted on 85%+.
Only 5 players in the league were assisted on less than 50% of their successful 3FGs. Nash shot .439. The next highest? James, at .344. Then Wade .317, and Butler and Williams at .310.
So yes, volume shooters like Allen do lose some % because of contested shots. On the other hand, though, part of being a great shooter isn't just the stroke, it is the ability to create space, hit fallbacks, get the ball off quickly, etc. Having the ability to turn a dribble into an open 3 then hitting it at a rate that would be the envy of every pitch-a-tent-at-the-arc spot up shooter....... I think that tips any debate in Nash's favor.
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:08 pm
by plonden
^ Very interesting numbers, watch1958. I think the assisted-on differential more than makes up for the percentage hits from contested shots that Allen faces. Like you mentioned, your numbers definitely clinches the debate in Steve's favor (at least in my mind).
Re: Nash and the League's Best Shooters
Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:32 pm
by Risensun
An NBA player shooting 90ft%/50%FG/40% 3's in a season is ridiculous. Only 2 players in basketball history have done it at least twice. Steve Nash and Larry Bird. Nash has done it 4 times already.
One of things that isn't looked at enough is that most shooters are coming of screens or V-cuts while Nash is shooting off the dribble which makes it much harder. The fact that Nash has been able to shoot those percentages without often being wide open is remarkable.
Multiple players and coaches(including Grant Hill) have said that if Nash wanted to he could lead the NBA in scoring. This doesn't happen because Nash is at his best when creating for others. But if his role was changed to being strictly a scorer with multiple plays designed to give him good looks, I'm fairly certain that the open shots off screens would counter much of the (if any) drop in % due to the increased volume.
While there are a few 3point specialist throughout history I'd rank above him like Steve Kerr(Shrieks). As far as the best shooter overall I'd have to give it to him. Even a Boston fan had to admit that Nash was a better shooter then Larry Bird and the best in NBA history.
Or to simply quote Kanye...
Kanye West: Yo Ray Allen, I’m really happy for you…I’mma let you finish. But Steve Nash is the best shooter of all time! The best shooter of all time!