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Who do you think, in your opinion. Is a better player? Who would you rather have in Phoenix..?

There is absolutely zero question this season that Bosh is the better player.

Amare is a more explosive scoring threat and he's even not far from Bosh as a shooter, but Bosh's iso ability is still more effective and he's still superior at both defense and rebounding. From Phoenix's perspective, the Suns can look at how effective Bosh is in the iso-or-PnR offense the Raps run and see how that would translate if Bosh had better court spacing around him and Steve Nash instead of Jarrett Jack or Jose Calderon.

He runs like a deer in transition, has a little more range than Amare and he finishes well in traffic, too, while adding superior rebounding and defense. This is a no-brainer at the moment, unless Amare's little 16-game stretch keeps up. Though I was disappointed with 7 boards in 41 minutes against Utah, he had 3 offensive boards and 30 points, plus RoLo and Hill were cleaning the defensive glass. I was disappointed at how well Boozer was allowed to board, though, that was a little frustrating. 11 defensive boards? C'mon, Amare.

But anyway, I digress. Amare has the potential to be a more explosive scorer and he's been showing it a lot of late, but even if he stays a consistent 25 ppg player, the difference in defense and rebounding easily make up for the 2 ppg difference.

Amare is probably in my top 5 of favourite players but I have to agree with tsherkin. Bosh is a better overall player. He's a better rebounder, similar scorer, smarter defender and a much better leader. His has really stepped up his rebounder this season and that's most likely because of the work he put in during the off-season to bulk up. Amare is a more explosive player and possibly a better PnR player but Bosh can score at will in an iso situation - something Amare still has trouble doing.

Neither are guys that you can build around and expect them to lead you to a championship, so it's a wash.

tsherkin wrote:There is absolutely zero question this season that Bosh is the better player.

Amare is a more explosive scoring threat and he's even not far from Bosh as a shooter, but Bosh's iso ability is still more effective and he's still superior at both defense and rebounding. From Phoenix's perspective, the Suns can look at how effective Bosh is in the iso-or-PnR offense the Raps run and see how that would translate if Bosh had better court spacing around him and Steve Nash instead of Jarrett Jack or Jose Calderon.

He runs like a deer in transition, has a little more range than Amare and he finishes well in traffic, too, while adding superior rebounding and defense. This is a no-brainer at the moment, unless Amare's little 16-game stretch keeps up. Though I was disappointed with 7 boards in 41 minutes against Utah, he had 3 offensive boards and 30 points, plus RoLo and Hill were cleaning the defensive glass. I was disappointed at how well Boozer was allowed to board, though, that was a little frustrating. 11 defensive boards? C'mon, Amare.

But anyway, I digress. Amare has the potential to be a more explosive scorer and he's been showing it a lot of late, but even if he stays a consistent 25 ppg player, the difference in defense and rebounding easily make up for the 2 ppg difference.

I haven't had the ability to catch many TOR games lately, but I did have a few thoughts:

Defense
Bosh regularly holds the defensive crown in this discussion, but I honeslty have always thought this was a product of both the systems that each player has (solely) existed in their entire careers and the way that each player has been developed over that same period.

Simply put, Stoudemire wasn't asked (not that he shouldn't have tried/known better) to play any form of defense. D'antoni was a players coach with the lightest practices in the league. Amare never worked on his defensive footwork, which resulted in his perpetually poor position both in terms of defense and rebounding.

Offense
Here's where I give credit (and a slight edge in this regard) to Bosh. He has a back-to-the-basket game. You couple that with his ability to knock down shots face-to-the-basket, this makes him deadly and he gets, by virute of having more options, better looks at the basket.

Amare suffers when he tries to post someone. It may seems odd, but he's not "big" enough to battle a Gasol, Bynum, Jefferson, Bosh, Howard, etc. in the low post. It's just not going to happen. Opposing players and opposing teams know this.

Now this is where people might disagree. I think Amare's shot selection is more difficult. there are those who will say, "But Stoudemire has Nash feeding him the ball" and of course, they would be right. The Nash/Stoudemire PNR has been their bread & butter for sometime now. But, not every one of Stoudemire's dives into the lane is uncontested and he can't just dunk over everyone anymore.

I wish Amare knew how much easier the game would feel if he could develop any semblence of a low-post, finesse-style game more in the mold of Hakeem. Just some simple mis-direction and smart footwork could make his offensive life much more fluid. If people had to respect Amare's ability in both a face-up and back-to-the-basket game, he would be unstoppable.

Dreaming is fun, isn't it?

Bosh is shooting 52.5% on 16.6 shots per game for 24.5ppg
Stoudemire is shooting 55.1% on 15.1 shots per game for 22ppg

To me, that in and of itself, is not enough to crown Bosh. Obviously there are more offensive options in PHX that take away from Stoudemire's shot total. Again, in my opinion, a more difficult shot selection for Amare (due to the lack of respect defenses have for his low-post game) and, that considered, he's already shooting a higher fg%.

Defense:
Bosh

Offense:
Stoudemire

And I say that without reservation.

Sun Scorched wrote:I haven't had the ability to catch many TOR games lately, but I did have a few thoughts:

Good, because Bosh hasn't been IN many of them lately, heh.

Defense
Bosh regularly holds the defensive crown in this discussion, but I honeslty have always thought this was a product of both the systems that each player has (solely) existed in their entire careers and the way that each player has been developed over that same period.

Simply put, Stoudemire wasn't asked (not that he shouldn't have tried/known better) to play any form of defense. D'antoni was a players coach with the lightest practices in the league. Amare never worked on his defensive footwork, which resulted in his perpetually poor position both in terms of defense and rebounding.

I've no doubt Amare COULD be better. I also have no doubt that Bosh, independent of our weak defensive coaching, has added mass of his own accord and started fighting harder for defensive rebounds and in positional battles. Alex English is our big man coach; WTF does a SF know about playing big? He was a face-up guy. He's been great for Chris' offense, but has little to offer defensively. Jay Triano, Sam Mitchell, Kevin O'neill... Toronto hasn't had any defensive coaches who were any better than D'Antoni.

Offense
Here's where I give credit (and a slight edge in this regard) to Bosh. He has a back-to-the-basket game. You couple that with his ability to knock down shots face-to-the-basket, this makes him deadly and he gets, by virute of having more options, better looks at the basket.

It is a small gap, no doubt. Bosh's main advantage is that he's got a better mid-post game and that he is more comfortable with his handle slashing to the rim. The jumpers aren't that different. Bosh has a LITTLE more range, but not much.

Dreaming is fun, isn't it?

Henry David Thoreau once said, "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you’ve imagined."

And I say that without reservation.

I'm still inclined to disagree that Amare is better than Bosh offensively. The FG% is a direct product of his set-up man; the difference between Nash and Jarrett Jack or Calderon is significant, as is the difference in team pace and the nature of the looks they get. As is the difference in team offensive environment. Richardson by himself is better than any other Raptor as a scorer, let alone the additions of Nash, Hill and Dragic in terms of their offensive value. The two offensive environments are VERY different.

I'll take Amare.

tsherkin wrote:I've no doubt Amare COULD be better. I also have no doubt that Bosh, independent of our weak defensive coaching, has added mass of his own accord and started fighting harder for defensive rebounds and in positional battles. Alex English is our big man coach; WTF does a SF know about playing big? He was a face-up guy. He's been great for Chris' offense, but has little to offer defensively. Jay Triano, Sam Mitchell, Kevin O'neill... Toronto hasn't had any defensive coaches who were any better than D'Antoni.

To expand on my impression of Mike as a coach, and with specific regard to Amare, I would add that he was almost too much of a players coach and any confrontation or challenge from his direction seems like it would be more of a passive-agressive style of motivation. It was no secret that his workouts were light on the intensity scale and, though that allows aging vets to stay fresh and a 7 man rotation to keep from wearing out, it does little to physically challenge a young, 6'10" manchild of a power forward.

There is no question in my mind that Amare has the length and the capacity to still develop a finesse game. Up to and including right now, his game has been almost based entirely around his explosive power and speed... not strength necessarily, but a kind of vicious, change-of-pace power that most people aren't prepared for when in context of the normal pace of a game.

If he can develop into more of a high shooting %, finesse back-to-the-basket pf (and I'm not talking anywhere near prolific in this regard), I think he can extend his career (sans the microfacture consideration) for at least 3-4 more years than his current style of play will allow.

It is a small gap, no doubt. Bosh's main advantage is that he's got a better mid-post game and that he is more comfortable with his handle slashing to the rim. The jumpers aren't that different. Bosh has a LITTLE more range, but not much.

Well I honestly can't tell the difference in range. I guess I don't see Stoudmire taking any baseline jumpers, which I have seen Bosh do countless times. His jumper operates almost exclusively in the mid-to-upper key and his range seems to extend out comfortably a few feet beyond the top of the key.

Henry David Thoreau once said, "Go confidently in the direction of your dreams. Live the life you’ve imagined."

One of my favorites. Straight-forward and uplifting.

I'm still inclined to disagree that Amare is better than Bosh offensively. The FG% is a direct product of his set-up man; the difference between Nash and Jarrett Jack or Calderon is significant, as is the difference in team pace and the nature of the looks they get. As is the difference in team offensive environment. Richardson by himself is better than any other Raptor as a scorer, let alone the additions of Nash, Hill and Dragic in terms of their offensive value. The two offensive environments are VERY different.

Is there that much difference in pace anymore? Obviously, the disclaimer in this entire conversation is that we haven't seen Amare in anywhere near the "void" that Bosh is in at stretches. But it's not hard to imagine Amare on a team like GS where a fluid style of offense creates looks as opposed to any one ball-handler. His fg% might decline marginally without a PNR partner (not that he and Ellis couldn't pull it together), but I'm not so sure his true fg% would decline. Once Amare refined his jumper, he's been close to automatic with his efficiency.

I also think that without a good set-up man Amare would be forced to develop his own shots more. I know it may look painful when he tries to put the ball on the floor right now, but when your playing alongside the best passing PG in the game that's not really your focus. In fact, it'd be a waste of energy to try and create on his own when he's got Nash next to him.

Bosh is soft like frye. Amare when he decides to commit to defense he is pretty good. ill take amare.

Chris Bosh: 24.5ppg 11.7rpg 1.1bpg
Amare Stoudemire: 22ppg 8.7rpg 1.0bpg

So he's soft?

Oh ya one of those guys plays with Steve Nash.

Sun Scorched wrote:To expand on my impression of Mike as a coach, and with specific regard to Amare, I would add that he was almost too much of a players coach and any confrontation or challenge from his direction seems like it would be more of a passive-agressive style of motivation. It was no secret that his workouts were light on the intensity scale and, though that allows aging vets to stay fresh and a 7 man rotation to keep from wearing out, it does little to physically challenge a young, 6'10" manchild of a power forward.

And the coaches the Raptors have had have been simply inadequate to the task of teaching the team HOW to play fundamental defense, so the net effect is the same. When we've been decent on defense, it has been a result of individual defenders like Rasho, Anthony Parker, Shawn Marion, etc.

If he can develop into more of a high shooting %, finesse back-to-the-basket pf (and I'm not talking anywhere near prolific in this regard), I think he can extend his career (sans the microfacture consideration) for at least 3-4 more years than his current style of play will allow.

I don't disagree that Amare does have some potential to expand his game; a fadeaway on the baseline would go a long way to making him a more complete offensive player, for example, and some better lower-body strength, too.

Well I honestly can't tell the difference in range. I guess I don't see Stoudmire taking any baseline jumpers, which I have seen Bosh do countless times. His jumper operates almost exclusively in the mid-to-upper key and his range seems to extend out comfortably a few feet beyond the top of the key.

Bosh is comfortable enough to take threes from time to time. He's not Dirk or anything and he's only shooting a hair under 30% from 3 on his career, but that's still 10.5% better than Amare's percentage on his threes and Bosh's stroke from there actually looks pretty decent. He's shooting 32% since and including the 06-07 season on 125 total attempts (and counting).

He's got more range than Amare. It's a few feet, but it's a difference-maker at times.

Is there that much difference in pace anymore? Obviously, the disclaimer in this entire conversation is that we haven't seen Amare in anywhere near the "void" that Bosh is in at stretches. But it's not hard to imagine Amare on a team like GS where a fluid style of offense creates looks as opposed to any one ball-handler. His fg% might decline marginally without a PNR partner (not that he and Ellis couldn't pull it together), but I'm not so sure his true fg% would decline. Once Amare refined his jumper, he's been close to automatic with his efficiency.

This year? There's only a difference of 2 possessions per game. It's not huge, so the number of scoring opportunities aren't that different. But the relentless pace that Nash sets compared to the slow-down BS of Jose Calderon or the mid-tempo game of Jarrett Jack certainly don't create the same TYPE of opportunities, which are pace-related as well. It's not the volume of shots, it's the kind of shots. Again, because we're talking about degrees of difference here, most of the variations are small, subtle things, not yawning chasms of environment and opportunity.

I also think that without a good set-up man Amare would be forced to develop his own shots more. I know it may look painful when he tries to put the ball on the floor right now, but when your playing alongside the best passing PG in the game that's not really your focus. In fact, it'd be a waste of energy to try and create on his own when he's got Nash next to him.

That's possible, but what that amounts to is that he doesn't have the skills that Bosh does RIGHT NOW, which means he's incapable of performing as well in the same situation, ergo he doesn't have the same kind of ability and isn't as good.

Amare's a really phenomenal player who's got an interesting combination of athleticism with his mid-range J. But he flat-out doesn't have the ability to do what Bosh does, not for 82 games a season without Nash. Not yet, anyhow. He certainly showed the ability to work on his game; he couldn't shoot worth a damn when he hit the league and he looks like an over-30 Karl Malone these days. Maybe a little less range, but only a foot or two, really.

This year:
1. Dirk
2. Bosh
3. Z-BO
4. Amare

RuPaul Bosh is soft as cake.

Amare plays in the Western Conference were ALL of the top low post players are besides Howard.

Amare puts up numbers on real comp.

Amare and the Suns win games and are a lock for the playoffs.

Toronto is barely even in the playoffs at the moment in a terrible Eastern Conference playoff picture.

STAT has had real playoff success not just stat stuffing regular seasons.

Chris Bosh gets a lot of boards but after that this is a CAREER scoring year for him at a little over 24ppg.

Amare has averaged over 25 twice and 2 bpg not to mention made All NBA teams before and after surgery.

Bosh is at his peak athletic health and is still not on Amare's level.

Amare is a better athlete and better finisher around the rim. He also finishes with POWER.

Bosh is good but I am taking STAT anytime. Playoffs are what matter not regular season.

tsherkin wrote:That's possible, but what that amounts to is that he doesn't have the skills that Bosh does RIGHT NOW, which means he's incapable of performing as well in the same situation, ergo he doesn't have the same kind of ability and isn't as good.

Touche'

Great post. I think that sums up the situation pretty well.

Sun Scorched wrote:Touche'

Great post. I think that sums up the situation pretty well.

Thanks. I do want to say, though, that Amare's potential ceiling is certainly higher than Bosh's because he is stronger and more athletic. If he ever DOES start adding the little wrinkles and fundamentals to his game, even post-surgery, he'll be truly scary.

Amare played on a crap team in HS, look at the highlights and it seems the team plan was throw the ball to Amare all the time.
I disagree that Bosh has better range than Amare, Amare has a very good shooting stroke and he has shown the ability to hit the 3 but he just doesn't take that many shots unless the clock is winding down and he happens to have the ball at the 3pt line.
I have been saying this for some time now but I want to see the team run 3pt plays for Amare from time to time, I don't want him jacking threes all the time but at least once in a game it'd be nice for him to attempt a 3.
Also Mike's system never really utilized post play it was pretty much all a face up offensive system and Amare fits the offense perfectly since he has a reliable jumper so he hasn't really had to develop much of a post game.
I think a lot of his current deficiencies could have been corrected had he been coached in the fundamentals right when he entered the NBA, had he gone to college I think he would have been a much better player right now though a lot of it does have to do with personal commitment and dedication to practice and whatnot.

garrick wrote: I disagree that Bosh has better range than Amare, Amare has a very good shooting stroke and he has shown the ability to hit the 3 but he just doesn't take that many shots unless the clock is winding down and he happens to have the ball at the 3pt line.

*shrugs*

That's nice?

You're wrong. Statistically speaking and just from basic observation. Sorry if that sounds callous, your disagreement is noted, but it also irrelevant. The difference in range is real, even if it isn't something either showcases a great deal or would want them to. It does make a difference, though. More importantly, Bosh shoots a nearly identical percentage to Amare on jumpers despite being assisted on 9% fewer of his attempts and gets blocked less often, too.

FWIW, on mid-range jumpers so far this season:

Bosh (194 attempts): 46.4%
Amare (198 attempts): 42.4%

And I don't even need to bother with 3s, but Amare's 1-3 and Bosh is 6/16 (e.g. just under 38%).

This is a short sample, but it's also a microcosm of their respective shooting ability; Bosh is a little better and has a little more range. Period.

Also Mike's system never really utilized post play it was pretty much all a face up offensive system and Amare fits the offense perfectly since he has a reliable jumper so he hasn't really had to develop much of a post game.

Ironically, when D'Antoni was still the coach, pre-injury Amare had a semi-competent fallaway and a baseline spin that worked pretty well. Just about nothing else, and the fadeaway wasn't really good, but he used it to counter if the spin was denied, and no one could stop the spin because of his speed.

I think a lot of his current deficiencies could have been corrected had he been coached in the fundamentals right when he entered the NBA, had he gone to college I think he would have been a much better player right now though a lot of it does have to do with personal commitment and dedication to practice and whatnot.

Like I said to Sun_Scorched, while it is true that there are a lot of what-ifs and much potential about Amare, none of it really matters at the moment. Bosh IS a better shooter and iso scorer, he IS a more fundamentally sound defender, he DOES put in more effort defensively and on the glass, etc, etc. These are all things that are true, now. Not "if he had a better coach" or whatever. Phoenix has been winning, came up short of some Finals appearances on a few occasions. Amare's had all the incentive he needed to work even without the guidance of a coach, but he failed to take advantage of those opportunities while Bosh has added a new wrinkle to his game every season and has busted tail in order to improve while laboring on mediocre to the bad Raptors over in the EC.

But it doesn't matter what Amare COULD have been. Derrick Coleman COULD have been the best PF of all-time, but he wasn't. Amare COULD have been a better defender and rebounder, but he ISN'T. That's all that matters. He could still get better, and at such a time, it would change the argument, but I wouldn't even blink before taking Bosh at this stage of their respective careers.

When Amare is a 100% and playing at his best I easily take him over Bosh.

Bottom line though is I take Bosh bc of Amare's injury history.

Bosh isn't a guy who will win you a title, neither is Amare, they're both crucial pieces though. Given Amare's history with us, his history, dedication, and how he has been performing the past few seasons, I'd tak ehim no matter what over Bosh. Bosh is a great player but he's a great player surrounded by terrible players. We have Amare who is great, and can co-exist with other star talent, like Nash.

hunterxaz wrote:Bosh isn't a guy who will win you a title, neither is Amare, they're both crucial pieces though. Given Amare's history with us, his history, dedication, and how he has been performing the past few seasons, I'd tak ehim no matter what over Bosh. Bosh is a great player but he's a great player surrounded by terrible players. We have Amare who is great, and can co-exist with other star talent, like Nash.

That makes no sense; you're punishing Bosh for having played without talent around him and rewarding Amare for having good teammates?