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he is not only the most ridicolous man in the world...

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he is not only the most ridicolous man in the world... 

Post#1 » by schnakenpopanz » Tue Mar 9, 2010 10:33 pm

he is the all time best shooter this league has seen. and its not close.
with kind regards to mvf... ;)

Here's Hollinger's article on the top 10 shooters ever:



You'll often hear casual basketball fans lament the lack of shooting in today's game, especially from the free throw line. But actually, we have the opposite problem: The current NBA is littered with great shooters. In fact, several of the best shooters of all time are currently on NBA rosters, and most of them are more or less in their prime.

Without leaving the top half of the Western Conference standings, for instance, I can point out names like Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, Peja Stojakovic, Kevin Martin and Chauncey Billups, all of whom have put together multiple seasons that rank among the best shooting performances in history. That's to say nothing of the other great shooters in the league -- Ray Allen, Jason Kapono, free throw-record holder Jose Calderon, Ben Gordon, Kyle Korver ... the list goes on and on.

But which one is the best of the best? Aye, there's the rub. We've never had a clear metric for ranking the game's best shooters ... well, at least until today's ill-advised endeavor. That's right -- we're going to try ranking the best shooters in the game's history.

First, a caveat: By "history," we're limiting ourselves to the 3-point era. There were plenty of great shooters who played prior to that point, but we have no way to verify their cases statistically. In particular, it appears Calvin Murphy and Rick Barry -- two players from the 1970s who were renowned for their shooting range and rank among the top six free throw shooters of all time -- are slighted by today's methodology. Bill Sharman, Mike Newlin and Fred Brown also get my apologies.

OK, now for the method. My first step is to require players pass through a couple of fairly low "gates:" shooting 85 percent from the line with at least a 45 percent mark on 3s, or shooting 87.5 percent from the line with at least 42.5 percent made on 3s, or shooting 90 percent from the stripe with at least 40 percent made on 3s.

The point at this stage isn't to determine the best shooter of all time but to eliminate all the players we know darn well aren't the best shooter of all time. This does an efficient job, narrowing our list to 44 players.

From there, I set about creating a formula to rank the best shooters. I thought I'd have to dream up something very complex to adjust for all the variables involved, but it turned out a simple formula worked far better than any of my more exotic concoctions. I simply added a player's 2-point, 3-point and free throw percentages. We'll call this "Combined Shooting Rating," or CSR for short.

CSR works for a few reasons. First, the free throw is a pretty fair arbiter of shooting ability. It's the only true apples-to-apples measurement we have, because it's always 15 feet from the hoop and unguarded, regardless of what system the team runs or how the player is used. It's only one shot among many that need to be in a player's arsenal, but it's an important one.

Second, the yin and yang of 2-point and 3-point ability balance each other out. Some players are more effective midrange shooters than long-range marksmen, while others are more comfortable bombing away. And using this method makes the system more fair to players from the 1980s and early '90s, when teams didn't utilize the 3 as often or as effectively.

The one thing I left out was frequency. Obviously, players who pick their spots get higher-percentage looks than those who are the focal point of the offense on play after play. On the other hand, it's extremely difficult for players in the former group to shoot well enough from the line to crack the elite on this list, simply because of the lack of in-game repetition. Several snipers with great numbers from the floor (Brent Barry, for instance, or Hubert Davis) couldn't get into the top 10 because of free throw percentage, and even the second-ranked player on our list (one of the all-time snipers) has the worst free throw percentage of anybody in the top 10.

Also, I did set two minimum standards: 10,000 career minutes and 250 made 3-pointers. I didn't want anybody getting onto the list with a lengthy career sparsely populated with 3-point attempts; that seemed counter to the point of the exercise. While arbitrary, 250 nicely separated the truly deadly long-range shooters from the guys who merely hit midrange J's and made their free throws.

So now that our rather simple CSR method is clear, let's get to our list of the top 10 shooters, which also apparently doubles as a great predictor of post-career broadcasting, coaching and front-office opportunities. According to CSR, they are:

2-PT% 3-pt% FT% CSR
Steve Nash .515 .431 .903 1.894
Steve Kerr .494 .454 .864 1.812
Reggie Miller .525 .395 .888 1.807
Mark Price .501 .402 .904 1.807
Jeff Hornacek .515 .403 .877 1.795
Chris Mullin .533 .384 .865 1.783
Peja Stojakovic .485 .400 .895 1.779
Larry Bird .509 .376 .886 1.770
Ray Allen .482 .396 .893 1.770
Dana Barros .488 .411 .858 1.757



That's right: Steve Nash. By a mile.

I've always written that his shooting is his most underappreciated skill, but even so, this blows me away.

It makes sense, though -- run through the numbers, and Nash crushes every possible competitor. And it becomes even more impressive when one considers nearly all his shots from the field have come off the dribble. Nash and the fourth-ranked player on this list, Mark Price, are the only two players in history to shoot better than 50 percent on 2s, 40 percent on 3s and 90 percent from the line for their careers. And as it happens, Nash's general manager in Phoenix, Steve Kerr, is second on the list.

One strong point of this list is that it acknowledges a few of the game's great midrange shooters. Neither Chris Mullin nor Jeff Hornacek shot the 3 with great frequency, for instance, but both were deadly accurate when they did, and they were exceptional from 2-point range.

Fans of "Larry Legend" undoubtedly will be disappointed to see him ninth on this list and to see one player of his own size -- Stojakovic -- rank just ahead of him. But Bird's greatest asset was his ability to make high-difficulty shots, which would need to be part of a different list entirely -- a list that would include different players. (Kobe Bryant, for one obvious example, is nowhere close on the above list but would have to rank high on any list of tough-shot makers.)

If you're wondering about Nowitzki, he is 13th, and easily the best among players 6-foot-10 or taller. Players 11 to 20 on this list are Barry, Hersey Hawkins, Nowitzki, Davis, Korver, Mo Williams, Danny Ainge, Allan Houston, Scott Skiles and Glen Rice.

Before I exit, some players who didn't make my list warrant mentioning.

The first is Drazen Petrovic, who just missed my minutes cut-off because of his untimely death in 1993. Petro's rating of 1.799 would have put him fifth on the list, a fact that becomes even more impressive when one considers he was only 28 when he died -- most players improve their numbers on the above criteria well into their 30s.

The second is Calderon, who needs only 779 more minutes to crack the list; his 1.805 career mark would place him fifth. Calderon also has only 238 made 3s on his career and needs to make 12 more of those. You might think his free throw percentage carries him into the top 10, but actually it's his amazing 2-point field goal percentage that does it. Calderon has shot 53.4 percent for his career on 2-point shots, the best mark of any of the 44 players in this study.

Finally, two young players on the Golden State Warriors have established a great chance of finishing their careers near the top of this list. Rookie Stephen Curry is at 1.770 thus far in his brief career, and should that number hold up, he'll finish his career in the top 10. Since players' shooting often improves dramatically in their second through fifth seasons, he could finish as one of the top-ranked players of all time.

Then again, he also might finish second among current Warriors. Curry's teammate, Anthony Morrow, has played two NBA seasons as a part-time starter, and posted career marks of 48.8 percent on 2s, 45.9 percent on 3s and 87.6 percent from the line. That's good for a CSR of 1.822, which is better than every other player in history except Nash.

Obviously we're dealing with smaller sample sizes with those two, and it's possible they'll regress in future seasons. But when we discuss the great all-time shooters, those two are worth tracking in future seasons to see if they warrant a spot in the conversation.
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Re: he is not only the most ridicolous man in the world... 

Post#2 » by Sun Scorched » Tue Mar 9, 2010 10:52 pm

Two things:

1. Wow. The 6'3" Canadian out of Santa Clara. If there is a better example of hard work and determination in professional sports (I'm bias here obviously), I'd like to hear it.

2. I want (and have for some time now) Anthony Marrow in a Suns uniform when his current contract is up. He has a team option for 2010/2011 for a little over $1m after which he becomes a FA at the same time that Richardson's contract expires..... hmmm.
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On Steve Nash:
G35 wrote:He may run a great offense but I wouldn't choose him over Amare to start a team.
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Re: he is not only the most ridicolous man in the world... 

Post#3 » by schnakenpopanz » Tue Mar 9, 2010 11:03 pm

i am very well into statistics, i work on data in our university, in comparison to other works form hollinger this one is very valid. he emphasizes on long term performances and combines the shooting in all forms. so it is not hard to predict that nash will sta on the top for a while.
and he is not doing this the easy way by only straight up shooting like others on the list.
his shots are not easy and mostly contested. and if we add the facts that he delivers the ball so well and makes his teammates better he is one of the best players in the history of the game. so he has his flaws on the defensive end but his offensive skillset is unmatched in my point of view.
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Re: he is not only the most ridicolous man in the world... 

Post#4 » by impulsenine » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:45 am

Here's a stat I've been looking for an excuse to post:

If Steve Nash were to continue shooting free throws at his usual pace, he will be the greatest career free-throw shooter in the NBA/ABA, ever. Ever.

Mark Price is the current leader, at 2,135 for 2,362 (90.3895%).

Steve Nash is currently at 2,538 for 2,811 (90.2882%).

Nash is currently shooting a career-best 172 for 183 on the season, a staggering 93.989%. This isn't far from the all-time single-season record, set by Calvin Murphy, who shot 206 for 215 (95.81%).

If he shoots a similar percentage (93%) for just his next 200 free throws (186 for 200) to make 2,722 of 3011, he will have the record at 90.4018%.



The more time he spends above 90.34% in his career, the more inevitable his overtaking this record. For most people, that would be almost impossible. For Nash, it's routine: In the last eight seasons, he's had two in which he has not made that mark ('06-'07 at 89.9% and '04-'05 at 88.7%).
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Re: he is not only the most ridicolous man in the world... 

Post#5 » by Biff » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:01 am

impulsenine wrote:
Nash is currently shooting a career-best 172 for 183 on the season, a staggering 93.989%. This isn't far from the all-time single-season record, set by Calvin Murphy, who shot 206 for 215 (95.81%).
.


Calderon shot 98.1% last season.
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Re: he is not only the most ridicolous man in the world... 

Post#6 » by DaDragicShow » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:21 am

Nash is just amazing. Is there anything he cannot do? I bet he great at sex too. :O
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Re: he is not only the most ridicolous man in the world... 

Post#7 » by hunterxaz » Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:46 am

Biff wrote:
impulsenine wrote:
Nash is currently shooting a career-best 172 for 183 on the season, a staggering 93.989%. This isn't far from the all-time single-season record, set by Calvin Murphy, who shot 206 for 215 (95.81%).
.


Calderon shot 98.1% last season.


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Re: he is not only the most ridicolous man in the world... 

Post#8 » by blackjays1 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:14 am

Im a huge Nash fan and all but no espn "stats" can convince me he's a better shooter than Bird. Larry Bird is a top 5 all-time player BECAUSE of his shooting alone, thats how good he was.
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Re: he is not only the most ridicolous man in the world... 

Post#9 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:59 am

blackjays1 wrote:Im a huge Nash fan and all but no espn "stats" can convince me he's a better shooter than Bird. Larry Bird is a top 5 all-time player BECAUSE of his shooting alone, thats how good he was.


You're getting mixed up. Just because Bird is top 5 of all time, does not mean his shooting put him there nor does it make him a better shooter than Nash, even though his stats are off the chart. Besides, his shooting wasn't what made him great, it was his versatility and overall game that made him great. He was a heck of a shooter, which is evident if you look at his stats, he was a damn good rebounder for his size, position and athletic ability, he was probably one of the most clutch player of all time, he was an excellent playmaker and he had the ability to take over games.

This article has stats to back it up and it makes a judgment within the allotted criteria based on facts and figures. From those figures and the selection criteria, Nash is the best shooter. You're looking at it from a subjective point of view, like how some people say Bird or Magic is the GOAT while most say it's MJ. It depends on how you look at statistics, which statistic you want an emphasis on and how much weight you put on personal accolades.

But please, don't say it like stats don't mean s**t.
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Re: he is not only the most ridicolous man in the world... 

Post#10 » by rsavaj » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:12 pm

blackjays1 wrote:Im a huge Nash fan and all but no espn "stats" can convince me he's a better shooter than Bird. Larry Bird is a top 5 all-time player BECAUSE of his shooting alone, thats how good he was.


To say that Larry Bird is a top-5 all-time player because of his shooting alone is an insult to Larry Bird.
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Re: he is not only the most ridicolous man in the world... 

Post#11 » by impulsenine » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:00 am

Biff wrote:
impulsenine wrote:
Nash is currently shooting a career-best 172 for 183 on the season, a staggering 93.989%. This isn't far from the all-time single-season record, set by Calvin Murphy, who shot 206 for 215 (95.81%).
.


Calderon shot 98.1% last season.


I think there's a minimum of 200, although that doesn't detract from Calderon's accomplishment. Either that, or NBA.com hasn't updated their stats. And he definitely hasn't done that every season (his average is 88.6%). If he keeps improving, though, he may get there, but it looks like this season he's coming back to Earth.
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