UFC 119 Headliner: Nog vs. Mir

[Cammo101]

As soon as I heard Mir, before the prelims, talk about how he wants to prove he's not the worst wrestler in the division I knew we'd have a crappy match, because a) it's true and b) he won't ground Cro Cop. That's ego and not a tactic to win the fight... a fluke knee ended the fight, in which power strikes were in very short supply. If Dana didn't give him the bonus based on this, I understand it.

LOL WUT?

Mir taking Cro Cop to the ground had nothing to do with ego and everything to do woith a desire to not have his head kicked off his shoulders. Everyone in the world knew Mir was going to try to get the fight to the ground. What Mir, and the rest of the world, did not know, was that Cro Cop had no desire to fight. Mir is only the 3rd guy to ever KO Cro Cop and it was a highlight reel KO, and you think he shouldn't get KO of the Night because his strategy was not to KO him?

Mir fought a smart fight, he pushed forward and tried to take the fight to the ground. When he realized that would not work, he used his striking and dirty boxing more. It is not his fault his opponent would not engage him. If you and I fight and I run from you for three rounds, should you be punished for having a boring fight?

[SDM]

As soon as I heard Mir, before the prelims, talk about how he wants to prove he's not the worst wrestler in the division I knew we'd have a crappy match, because a) it's true and b) he won't ground Cro Cop. That's ego and not a tactic to win the fight... a fluke knee ended the fight, in which power strikes were in very short supply. If Dana didn't give him the bonus based on this, I understand it.

LOL WUT?

Mir taking Cro Cop to the ground had nothing to do with ego and everything to do woith a desire to not have his head kicked off his shoulders. Everyone in the world knew Mir was going to try to get the fight to the ground. What Mir, and the rest of the world, did not know, was that Cro Cop had no desire to fight. Mir is only the 3rd guy to ever KO Cro Cop and it was a highlight reel KO, and you think he shouldn't get KO of the Night because his strategy was not to KO him?

Mir fought a smart fight, he pushed forward and tried to take the fight to the ground. When he realized that would not work, he used his striking and dirty boxing more. It is not his fault his opponent would not engage him. If you and I fight and I run from you for three rounds, should you be punished for having a boring fight?

Because Cro Cop has been out there firing kicks at people since he came to UFC? Please. This should have been a squash match because Mir is simply on another tier. I don't think he should get it because he played part in one of the worst fights of the year, regardless of how it ended. I'm not absolving Cro Cop for his part, but Mir was in the ring too and was totally content on riding out a decision (and not even a convincing one) until he saw an opening and landed a shot. This fight was close until that point because Mir made it close. I'll just state that Mir is one of my favourite fighters. There's no blind hate here, just the same disappointment Dana has. From his pre-fight comments, it looked like Mir was looking past Cro Cop, as he should have. He just didn't fight like he wanted a decisive, convincing victory over him. If Sylvia tapped Monson, would he deserve a sub bonus? Hell no. Awful fight. Same goes with Silva landing a shot in the fifth against Maia. Would he deserve a KO bonus? No, and you know Dana would be the first to tell you that. Like those guys, Mir fought a poor fight against a guy he should have beaten a hell of a lot sooner.

And let's reserve the word "punished" for fighters who have experienced actual injustice and not a millionaire multi-time champion who put in a stinker of a performance for all but one second of a fight.

[Cammo101]

As soon as I heard Mir, before the prelims, talk about how he wants to prove he's not the worst wrestler in the division I knew we'd have a crappy match, because a) it's true and b) he won't ground Cro Cop. That's ego and not a tactic to win the fight... a fluke knee ended the fight, in which power strikes were in very short supply. If Dana didn't give him the bonus based on this, I understand it.

LOL WUT?

Mir taking Cro Cop to the ground had nothing to do with ego and everything to do woith a desire to not have his head kicked off his shoulders. Everyone in the world knew Mir was going to try to get the fight to the ground. What Mir, and the rest of the world, did not know, was that Cro Cop had no desire to fight. Mir is only the 3rd guy to ever KO Cro Cop and it was a highlight reel KO, and you think he shouldn't get KO of the Night because his strategy was not to KO him?

Mir fought a smart fight, he pushed forward and tried to take the fight to the ground. When he realized that would not work, he used his striking and dirty boxing more. It is not his fault his opponent would not engage him. If you and I fight and I run from you for three rounds, should you be punished for having a boring fight?

Because Cro Cop has been out there firing kicks at people since he came to UFC? Please. This should have been a squash match because Mir is simply on another tier. I don't think he should get it because he played part in one of the worst fights of the year, regardless of how it ended. I'm not absolving Cro Cop for his part, but Mir was in the ring too and was totally content on riding out a decision (and not even a convincing one) until he saw an opening and landed a shot. This fight was close until that point because Mir made it close. I'll just state that Mir is one of my favourite fighters. There's no blind hate here, just the same disappointment Dana has. From his pre-fight comments, it looked like Mir was looking past Cro Cop, as he should have. He just didn't fight like he wanted a decisive, convincing victory over him. If Sylvia tapped Monson, would he deserve a sub bonus? Hell no. Awful fight. Same goes with Silva landing a shot in the fifth against Maia. Would he deserve a KO bonus? No, and you know Dana would be the first to tell you that. Like those guys, Mir fought a poor fight against a guy he should have beaten a hell of a lot sooner.

And let's reserve the word "punished" for fighters who have experienced actual injustice and not a millionaire multi-time champion who put in a stinker of a performance for all but one second of a fight.

I guess I am just confused as to what you wanted Mir to do. No one expected him to be able to win a kickboxing match against Cro Cop, but he did. He is not a dynamite stand up fighter, that is not his game. You, me, and Dana White all knew this. Mir did the best he could with his striking.

I think it is crazy to think that because one guy does not want to fight, it is everyone's fault. If a trained MMA fighter is content to survive and take no chances, then there is not a whole lot the other guy can do to make that fight exciting...except of course to knock him out with a brutal knee.

Your examples of Sylvia and Silva are not the same situation, because both those guys were a large part of why their fight was boring. Sylvia and Silva were the guys not taking any chances. Mir showed A LOT more offense than those two guys did, he just is not a good enough striker to dominate Cro Cop standing.

[SDM]

I'm disappointed in the fight. Both fighters desperately needed some positive momentum and I'm not thrilled with how Mir got it. I was expecting him to stand and bang, seeing as he was successful against Kongo and CC hasn't looked dangerous in a long time. I might be wrong, but what I got from the pre-fight interview is his ego told him to wrestle so people would start talking about his wrestling in the same positive light people talked about his improved striking after the Nog fight. We're talking about a guy who usually lasts less than one round, win or lose, against the cream of the crop. Going almost 15 full minutes and not even decisively being ahead on the scorecards against a struggling CC is very, very underwhelming and while the KO was a thing of beauty, it had more of a "fight's over, we can go home" effect than a "wow, what a shot by a premier mixed martial artist" effect.

[Cammo101]

I'm disappointed in the fight. Both fighters desperately needed some positive momentum and I'm not thrilled with how Mir got it. I was expecting him to stand and bang, seeing as he was successful against Kongo and CC hasn't looked dangerous in a long time. I might be wrong, but what I got from the pre-fight interview is his ego told him to wrestle so people would start talking about his wrestling in the same positive light people talked about his improved striking after the Nog fight. We're talking about a guy who usually lasts less than one round, win or lose, against the cream of the crop. Going almost 15 full minutes and not even decisively being ahead on the scorecards against a struggling CC is very, very underwhelming and while the KO was a thing of beauty, it had more of a "fight's over, we can go home" effect than a "wow, what a shot by a premier mixed martial artist" effect.

Everyone was disappointed in the fight and clearly Mir did not get the upward momentum he wanted. But make no mistakes, his goal was always to take the fight to the ground. He said as much in his interviews leading up to the fight. Guys sometimes say they want to stand and bang with elite strikers, but they rarely do.

Also, to say Mir was not decisevely ahead on the cards is just crazy. Mir was winning those rounds with ease and would have coasted to a 30-27 on all three cards. Unless Cecil Peoples was involved.

[CPT]

Mir is one of the most underrated fighters in MMA history IMO. Because an injury took out some of his prime and also because the Pride HWs got all the hype for a long time, Mir has never really gotten his due.

KOs on Cro Cop and Big Nog, subs of Sylvia, Lesnar, and Abbott...his resume is much better than his hype.

Sylvia sucks, Lesnar was green, Big Nog had staph, CroCop was washed up, and he lost to a few guys when he was fighting on one leg after his motorcycle incident. [/mirhaters]

Wow. You guys are nuts.

He's consistently in main event or high profile fights, considered a top 5-10 HW, and he's underrated?

This guy made his whole career off a Lesnar victory that should not have happened. He was getting worked over, Mazzagatti decided he didn't like it, and a few seconds later, a big oaf in his 2nd pro fight giftwraps him a submission. Real impressive. After seeing what happened in their second fight (and what would happen every single time they fight again), I don't really see how the Lesnar victory should count for much. It was clearly a fluke.

Sylvia does suck, but that was a quality win back then.

We all know about Big Nog and Cro Cop. If you want to pretend those wins mean as much as they did 4-6 years ago, go ahead, but they don't.

Actually, take back everything I said. He subbed Tank **** Abbott. That's not an easy thing to do.

And don't worry about him getting completely outclassed by the best HWs in the division. As soon as he puts on and/or loses some weight, that won't happen again.

[CPT]

I'm disappointed in the fight. Both fighters desperately needed some positive momentum and I'm not thrilled with how Mir got it. I was expecting him to stand and bang, seeing as he was successful against Kongo and CC hasn't looked dangerous in a long time. I might be wrong, but what I got from the pre-fight interview is his ego told him to wrestle so people would start talking about his wrestling in the same positive light people talked about his improved striking after the Nog fight. We're talking about a guy who usually lasts less than one round, win or lose, against the cream of the crop. Going almost 15 full minutes and not even decisively being ahead on the scorecards against a struggling CC is very, very underwhelming and while the KO was a thing of beauty, it had more of a "fight's over, we can go home" effect than a "wow, what a shot by a premier mixed martial artist" effect.

Everyone was disappointed in the fight and clearly Mir did not get the upward momentum he wanted. But make no mistakes, his goal was always to take the fight to the ground. He said as much in his interviews leading up to the fight. Guys sometimes say they want to stand and bang with elite strikers, but they rarely do.

Also, to say Mir was not decisevely ahead on the cards is just crazy. Mir was winning those rounds with ease and would have coasted to a 30-27 on all three cards. Unless Cecil Peoples was involved.

Mir would have been ahead on the cards because the judging system is garbage. Nobody won those rounds, and they should have been rolled over to the 3rd round by giving 10-10 scores. If Mir had not fallen ass backwards into a KO and the fight ended as a draw, good.

[CPT]

Don't want to go 3 posts in a row, but I also have to say that the idea that GSP, Silva, Couture, etc did not get any flak for having boring fights is completely laughable. You either have a really short memory or are being intentionally disingenuous to defend Frank Mir of all people.

[REDDzone]

We all know about Big Nog and Cro Cop. If you want to pretend those wins mean as much as they did 4-6 years ago, go ahead, but they don't.

Was he or was Nog not the interim champion with recent wins over the likes of Herring, Sylvia, and Barnett when Mir became the first man to ever finish him?

Was Mir not able to knock CroCop out cold? Something that neither Pat Barry, Overeem, nor JDS (all three K1 level strikers) were able to accomplish despite fighting him recently.

I'm not saying Mir is better than OWGP level Cro Cop here. All I'm saying is that Mir has a pretty nice resume (Lesnar, Cro Cop, Nog, Sylvia, Kongo, etc.), and for Dana to even have cutting him cross his mind is pretty stupid...even for Dana.

[CPT]

We all know about Big Nog and Cro Cop. If you want to pretend those wins mean as much as they did 4-6 years ago, go ahead, but they don't.

Was he or was Nog not the interim champion with recent wins over the likes of Herring, Sylvia, and Barnett when Mir became the first man to ever finish him?

Was Mir not able to knock CroCop out cold? Something that neither Pat Barry, Overeem, nor JDS (all three K1 level strikers) were able to accomplish despite fighting him recently.

I'm not saying Mir is better than OWGP level Cro Cop here. All I'm saying is that Mir has a pretty nice resume (Lesnar, Cro Cop, Nog, Sylvia, Kongo, etc.), and for Dana to even have cutting him cross his mind is pretty stupid...even for Dana.

Alright, we can exchange biased accounts of Mir's resume all day, just as you can twist any fighter's record to make him look better or worse than he really is.

I just think the notion that he is underrated is ridiculous, especially given the attention he gets, and the fact that a lot of his wins seem to be a result of him being in the right place at the right time.

As for Dana talking about cutting him, it's really nothing to get worked up about. He's said the same about Anderson Silva, and I'm sure he's said it about other fighters as well. I think he sees it as a motivational tactic, or perhaps just his way to show the fighters and fans that he was not pleased with the fight.

[REDDzone]

1) I'm making an argument, of course I chose a side but I don't understand how my account can be biased since all the support I gave it were straight up facts.

2) If our argument is whether Mir is underrated, then we don't have one, because I never said he was underrated.

I'm simply responding to you saying that I was "nuts." I don't think I have made any unreasonable argument in this entire thread to be honest.

[CPT]

1) I'm making an argument, of course I chose a side but I don't understand how my account can be biased since all the support I gave it were straight up facts.

2) If our argument is whether Mir is underrated, then we don't have one, because I never said he was underrated.

I'm simply responding to you saying that I was "nuts." I don't think I have made any unreasonable argument in this entire thread to be honest.

You responded in support of Cammo's claim that Mir is one of the most underrated fighters in MMA history. I guess I just assumed you agreed with his claim.

[cowboyronnie]

This sums up my opinion perfectly. Couture can lean on guys all night and he is a hero. Anderson Silva can dick around in multiple fights and he is great. GSP seems more than fine with just laying on pretty much everyone for 5 rounds and winning decisions. But, Mir has one lackluster fight (which is mainly not his fault) and Dana White is talking about cutting him? What garbage. Mir went forward all night against Cro Cop, is it his fault Cro Cop gave no resistance?

Mir has been one of the UFC's most consistently exciting fighters since he showed up on the scene. It is insulting that Dana took his anger over a bad show out on Mir. Mir has KOed Big Nog and Cro Cop, yet somehow he is a boringf fighter. It is (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

Bro, you are going off the Vera fight and I agree, but most of the time Couture does not lean guys on the cage all night.

I have seen pretty much every fight Couture has had, and he leans guys against the cage and dirty boxes in a great majority of them. Maybe not quite asd much lately because he has been fightoing a lot of guys bigger than him lately (Sylvia, Lesnar, Coleman...), but Couture's bread and butter has been leaning on guys in the clinch and dirty boxing and getting takedowns from it.

Let's not rewrite history here to make Couture seem like some guy who stands in the middle of the ring and bangs. He only does that when he has to or when it is obviously the right strategy.

What an ass****!