Manny Pacquiao vs Juan Manuel Marquez IV

[Butch718]

BTW what did you think of Gamboa?

I know he hasn't boxed in15 months, but I was not impressed. All the quick hand speed and power in the world doesn't mean a thing when you have a suspect chin and leave yourself open to taking big shots. Broner would systematically pick him apart and knock him out. He's also fortunate that he pulled out of the Rios fight.

[Blame Rasho]

I took a peek at BS.com (because it is BS) a few years ago. Never again. I've never looked at ESB. FightHype might as well be a fanpage for Mayweather.

Go to badlefthook.com.

It is the only boxing site that I go to. Scott Christ is a great guy(along with a half of dozen supporting writers) and god bless him he will stay up to see a fight in Indonesia if it is relevant.

I post under the name Zocalo over there... so i would encourage all of you if you want to just get a quick boxing fix, bookmark it .

There are bunch of tools on the team boards. I would be liable to go bantastic on several posters and mods because of sheer boxing stupidity that get posted on those threads.

[Rich Rane]

BTW what did you think of Gamboa?

I know he hasn't boxed in15 months, but I was not impressed. All the quick hand speed and power in the world doesn't mean a thing when you have a suspect chin and leave yourself open to taking big shots. Broner would systematically pick him apart and knock him out. He's also fortunate that he pulled out of the Rios fight.

Honestly, he is what he is. We didn't really learn anything new about him. I still think his hand speed and power could trouble anyone.

I took a peek at BS.com (because it is BS) a few years ago. Never again. I've never looked at ESB. FightHype might as well be a fanpage for Mayweather.

Go to badlefthook.com.

It is the only boxing site that I go to. Scott Crist is a great guy and god bless him he will stay up to see a fight in Indoesia if it is relevant.

I post under the name Zocalo over there... so i would encorage all of you if you want to just get a quick boxing fix, bookmark it .

YES! Scott Crist is amazing. I go to four sites for my boxing fix: BadLeftHook, The Ring, ESPN, and Yahoo!. I only post here though.

There are bunch of tools on the team boards. I would be liable to go bantastic on several posters and mods because of sheer boxing stupidity that get posted on those threads.

Amen, sir.

[Blame Rasho]

BTW what did you think of Gamboa?

I know he hasn't boxed in15 months, but I was not impressed. All the quick hand speed and power in the world doesn't mean a thing when you have a suspect chin and leave yourself open to taking big shots. Broner would systematically pick him apart and knock him out. He's also fortunate that he pulled out of the Rios fight.

The thing about him is that he really doesn't impose his will on other fighters he is always out of position and gets hits in a way that he is liable to get knocked down.

I would have loved to see him vs Rios but I really think that he is what he is. He will get bullied by another fighters who are at his talent level. He is suppose to be the badass out there, and too often he isn't there.

[cowboyronnie]

It always pains me that HBO cuts to the F***ING COMPUSTATS before the ring scene is done. We miss so many amazing moments and in nearly every fight. They missed almost all the interaction between JMM and Pac as Pac sat on his stool. Save the stats til later. FFS. Cotto-Margarito II, I believe it was, we missed an amazing moment when the two met at center ring after the fight so Jim could give us the stat breakdown.

God damn, Manny is such a gracious guy. It's mind-boggling.

The reaction from the white-haired dudes at ringside as Manny fell was pretty funny.

So the steroid thing: JMM brought in a BALCO guy. Put on a lot of muscle. Had suspiciously large traps. You really hope this had nothing to do with steroids. Are there any unbiased articles on this?? I didn't follow any of the build-up to this fight.

[cowboyronnie]

That first KD from JMM was nuts: in like full superman mode, his left arm outstretched for max leverage into his right. Wow. Such incredible, beautiful movement.

[cowboyronnie]

I don't wish Larry Merchant a painful death, but a quick one...and soon.

[Butch718]

So the steroid thing: JMM brought in a BALCO guy. Put on a lot of muscle. Had suspiciously large traps. You really hope this had nothing to do with steroids. Are there any unbiased articles on this?? I didn't follow any of the build-up to this fight.

I posted this in the Knicks forum in response to a poster that thought the idea of Marquez possibly doping was a ridiculous notion. My post has a link to a German documentary on doping featuring Memo Heredia. It shows his injecting EPO into his stomach. It also has a link to the a NY Times article pertaining to his testimony and past history of dealing former clients and talking about how easy it is for PED's to go undetected.

Honestly, if it weren't for his physical trainer Angel Hernandez aka Memo Heredia, I don't think anyone would be questioning Marquez's integrity, or his newly acquired physique at the age of 39. Memo Heredia is a known PED dealer that got immunity from prosecution when he testified and ratted out his clients. Plus he's on record saying how easily it is to get PED's undetected. Since the boxing commission hasn't implemented a competent drug testing system, it's really easy for boxers to cheat these days. The ones that got caught recently(Berto, Lamont Peterson), volunteered and agreed to more stringent/strict drug testing protocols.

Here's the link to a German documentary on doping featuring Heredia. It basically shows how easy it is to acquire PED's over the counter in Mexico. It also shows him injecting EPO into his stomach. The guy has a shady history. There's a reason why people don't trust him or take him at his word. This is who Marquez is currently training with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 0GbnVdWaIU

He said he used family connections to pharmacies and labs in Mexico to help his business. For years, Mr. Heredia said, he helped his clients flout the rules and easily avoided detection. Substances like human growth hormone and the blood booster erythropoietin, or EPO, are still virtually impossible to detect, and “it is still easy to use testosterone” with fast-acting creams, he said.

“You combine all these things — boom! — you get amazing results,” Mr. Heredia said.

Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/13/sports/13doping.html?ref=othersports&pagewanted=all

The thing that sucks is that there are so many great athletes out there that have been caught or have admitted to using PED's. Sometimes it's difficult to achieve truly great accomplishments in today's sporting world without a cloud of suspicion hanging over that athlete. Especially when it comes to boxing. If you look at this from an unbiased POV, could you imagine what kind of criticism and accusations Pacquiao would have faced if Heredia was his trainer? He would never have heard the end of it. Especially from the Mayweather clan and their supporters. But when people question Marquez, it's called sour grapes.

For the record, I think the knock out was legit. Manny was getting to aggressive and got completely careless trying to take out Marquez. You don't have to be on PED's in order to nail someone with the perfect punch.

[cowboyronnie]

HBO crew straight up said that Marquez is on roids during his ring walk

Yeah, that's what I picked up too. I hadn't previously heard the controversy. But they practically conceded it, sort of apologetically. LOL. I don't understand it. Victor Conte is still training athletes and is almost undoubtedly a clean trainer. But also an excellent one. What's so different about this other BALCO guy?

It was the size of JMM's traps that was also suspicious. They're obscure muscles you tend not to train unless you're lifting for anatomy or doing an insane amount of power cleans...or juicing.

[Butch718]

I'll make sure to check out Badlefthook. Thanks.

[cowboyronnie]

So the steroid thing: JMM brought in a BALCO guy. Put on a lot of muscle. Had suspiciously large traps. You really hope this had nothing to do with steroids. Are there any unbiased articles on this?? I didn't follow any of the build-up to this fight.

I posted this in the Knicks forum in response to a poster that thought the idea of Marquez possibly doping was a ridiculous notion. My post has a link to a German documentary on doping featuring Memo Heredia. It shows his injecting EPO into his stomach. It also has a link to the a NY Times article pertaining to his testimony and past history of dealing former clients and talking about how easy it is for PED's to go undetected.

Honestly, if it weren't for his physical trainer Angel Hernandez aka Memo Heredia, I don't think anyone would be questioning Marquez's integrity, or his newly acquired physique at the age of 39. Memo Heredia is a known PED dealer that got immunity from prosecution when he testified and ratted out his clients. Plus he's on record saying how easily it is to get PED's undetected. Since the boxing commission hasn't implemented a competent drug testing system, it's really easy for boxers to cheat these days. The ones that got caught recently(Berto, Lamont Peterson), volunteered and agreed to more stringent/strict drug testing protocols.

Here's the link to a German documentary on doping featuring Heredia. It basically shows how easy it is to acquire PED's over the counter in Mexico. It also shows him injecting EPO into his stomach. The guy has a shady history. There's a reason why people don't trust him or take him at his word. This is who Marquez is currently training with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 0GbnVdWaIU

He said he used family connections to pharmacies and labs in Mexico to help his business. For years, Mr. Heredia said, he helped his clients flout the rules and easily avoided detection. Substances like human growth hormone and the blood booster erythropoietin, or EPO, are still virtually impossible to detect, and “it is still easy to use testosterone” with fast-acting creams, he said.

“You combine all these things — boom! — you get amazing results,” Mr. Heredia said.

Source:http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/13/sports/13doping.html?ref=othersports&pagewanted=all

The thing that sucks is that there are so many great athletes out there that have been caught or have admitted to using PED's. Sometimes it's difficult to achieve truly great accomplishments in today's sporting world without a cloud of suspicion hanging over that athlete. Especially when it comes to boxing. If you look at this from an unbiased POV, could you imagine what kind of criticism and accusations Pacquiao would have faced if Heredia was his trainer? He would never have heard the end of it. Especially from the Mayweather clan and their supporters. But when people question Marquez, it's called sour grapes.

For the record, I think the knock out was legit. Manny was getting to aggressive and got completely careless trying to take out Marquez. You don't have to be on PED's in order to nail someone with the perfect punch.

Good stuff.

The fact JMM's 39 when he developed this newfound physique, yeah, it's really really suspicious. Your test levels are dropping every year after 30. You're not going to recover from weight lifting to the point of building a brand new physique unless something exceptional happens.

As Roy described it, those lunging punches are helped by the weight-lifting muscles.

[Butch718]

Eh I feel so dirty for even doubting Marquez. I just wish he hadn't associated himself with Memo Heredia. It's just really hard to look past and ignore his history.

In a perfect world, every boxer would follow Nonito and subscribe to voluntary Olympic style drug testing protocols. Actually in a perfect world the boxing commission would make it mandatory for fighters to subscribe to stricter drug testing programs all year round.

[Blame Rasho]

I'll make sure to check out Badlefthook. Thanks.

http://www.badlefthook.com/2012/12/9/37 ... oxing-news

Well that is how I felt...lol

[Butch718]

BTW what did you think of Gamboa?

I know he hasn't boxed in15 months, but I was not impressed. All the quick hand speed and power in the world doesn't mean a thing when you have a suspect chin and leave yourself open to taking big shots. Broner would systematically pick him apart and knock him out. He's also fortunate that he pulled out of the Rios fight.

The thing about him is that he really doesn't impose his will on other fighters he is always out of position and gets hits in a way that he is liable to get knocked down.

I would have loved to see him vs Rios but I really think that he is what he is. He will get bullied by another fighters who are at his talent level. He is suppose to be the badass out there, and too often he isn't there.

Yup. He's an exciting fighter, but I have a feeling he's going to go by the way of Khan. All the flash in the world can't save a suspect chin. Being knocked down 6 times in 22 fights are definitely signs for concern.

[StartingBench]

I'm shocked. Marquez just hit Pac with two great shots. Pac needs to retire. Pronto. Marquez proved who was the better fighter tonight. Decisively.

I wouldn't say decisively. Marquez was losing the fight at that point. It's like Pac and Marquez switched places. The earlier fights, Pac had knockdown power which gave him the upper hand in points, but throughout the rounds, Marquez was outboxing him. In this fight, Marquez had the knockdown power and Pac was the one outboxing Marquez.

I would love to see another fight at this point, but my guess is Marquez retires a happy man.

[GS Warriors 1]

Late to this thread but damn, what a fight!

The best fight in the series and it ends with a dramatic knockout with 1 second left in the 6th. It's definitely KO of the Year and it also overtakes Rios-Alvarado as Fight of the Year. That was just a short, brutal shot that Pacquiao jumped into. I wouldn't mind seeing a 5th fight but this result justifies it for me. Marquez is better than Pacquiao in my view because I've never had him losing to Pacquiao(albeit I had 1 and 2 closer than 3) and yes, this result is decisive. You score a KO like that, case closed. If not a 5th fight, there is still plenty of options for Marquez, like maybe moving down to the stronger 140 lb. weight class in addition to possibly continuing as a welter. I think Pacquiao really needs to think about retirement. He's 33, been in a lot of great battles, and a KO like that is something that is very difficult for fighters to recover from.