Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20

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Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#41 » by cowboyronnie » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:27 pm

Bernman wrote:
cowboyronnie wrote:He can't get off the fence because he has no fluidity at all. He's just fist-clenched, brute power in everything he throws. Rory has half the power but can push Lima back exactly where Lima does not excel or want to be. Why? Cos he doesn't spend all day lifting weights and hitting Thai pads. His jab is telegraphed and muscled. How can you be the best striker in the division and not be able to control range or use a jab? Have you ever seen him throw a double jab other than to throw a right? He's senseless in there.


Ability to get off the fence shouldn't be conflated with his striking. He even has pretty good takedown defense, fights for unders well, and can turn his man. But then turns back because his opponent is much more intent to stay there since they're threatened by his striking while he lacks urgency. Doesn't break out of his methodical tempo. Might be a way to avoid nervousness is trying to keep calm at all times.

You tell me how he's the best striker in the division with his style? Because he continues to reinforce that he is. He keeps cruising on the feet against the likes of Larkin, Daley, Koreshkov, and Rory. He's being tested even more than he would be in Bellator when it comes to striking. You apparently think fighters should work out of a textbook and not tailor their style to their strength. He feints into leg kicks that destroy opponent's legs. He snaps a jab out to keep some distance, score, and does damage with it. Double-jab is dangerous in MMA because you miss you've telegraphed it and are getting socked with a much harder shot without puffy gloves on. He hits opponents with plenty of uppercuts when they're desperately diving at him to get a hold because they're scared of his power. He could shorten up, but the fact he prompts that reaction is very telling. He throws a good left hook to right straight combo. He throws the techniques he needs to and nobody can rationally argue against him being an elite striker in MMA at this point.


By ability to get off the fence, I don't mean out of the clinch but in striking. He gets pushed back because he can't control range, never throws feelers, never throws things at variable speeds, or with fluidity, and instead just meatheads the same kill strikes and combos. It's a huge deficit and why, for example, the Daley fight was such a 5 rd dud. He just sat on the fence waiting to throw kill combos.

That is NOT great striking.
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Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#42 » by REDDzone » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:39 pm

Cbr what do u think Lima does so well to put Rory in a hospital bed and have him say he's he toughest fighter he ever faced (Rory has probably fought the toughest WW schedule ever) if it's true that Lima is "senseless"? It doesn't seem like it's his grappling that makes him so effective.
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Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#43 » by Jasen777 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:44 pm

REDDzone wrote:Cbr what do u think Lima does so well to put Rory in a hospital bed and have him say he's he toughest fighter he ever faced (Rory has probably fought the toughest WW schedule ever) if it's true that Lima is "senseless"? It doesn't seem like it's his grappling that makes him so effective.


Lima is a good fighter of course, but Rory was just being nice there. Hard to make the case that Lima is tougher than the guys who actually beat Rory.
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Re: RE: Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#44 » by REDDzone » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:49 pm

Jasen777 wrote:
REDDzone wrote:Cbr what do u think Lima does so well to put Rory in a hospital bed and have him say he's he toughest fighter he ever faced (Rory has probably fought the toughest WW schedule ever) if it's true that Lima is "senseless"? It doesn't seem like it's his grappling that makes him so effective.


Lima is a goof fighter of course, but Rory was just being nice there. Hard to make the case that Lima is tougher than the guys who actually beat Rory.
Rory was temporarily broken in that third round last night. In Rory's long career he has only even been broken one time ever. Condit didn't do it, Wonderboy didn't do it. Lawler did in the second fight.

Regardless, my question stands even if you think Rory was being nice (GSP posted a picture of Rory in the hospital). Obviously Lima is an effective fighter. His record and title reign and wins over Larkin/Daley/Koreshkov etc show that. What makes him effective if he isn't submitting people and if his striking is senseless?
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Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#45 » by REDDzone » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:51 pm

Also, Bern, Ben outlands Lima 800-7 if they ever fought again.
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Re: RE: Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#46 » by cowboyronnie » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:10 pm

REDDzone wrote:
Jasen777 wrote:
REDDzone wrote:Cbr what do u think Lima does so well to put Rory in a hospital bed and have him say he's he toughest fighter he ever faced (Rory has probably fought the toughest WW schedule ever) if it's true that Lima is "senseless"? It doesn't seem like it's his grappling that makes him so effective.


Lima is a goof fighter of course, but Rory was just being nice there. Hard to make the case that Lima is tougher than the guys who actually beat Rory.
Rory was temporarily broken in that third round last night. In Rory's long career he has only even been broken one time ever. Condit didn't do it, Wonderboy didn't do it. Lawler did in the second fight.

Regardless, my question stands even if you think Rory was being nice (GSP posted a picture of Rory in the hospital). Obviously Lima is an effective fighter. His record and title reign and wins over Larkin/Daley/Koreshkov etc show that. What makes him effective if he isn't submitting people and if his striking is senseless?


I admit he's effective. But he's not a "great" striker. He is senseless in that he has little beyond power and timing. But range, control, set-ups...he's nothing special. He's not MacGregor or Holloway or TJ or Whitaker or Gus, all guys who are unbelievably light on their feet and never where they don't want to be...landing things their opponents don't even anticipate.
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Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#47 » by Bernman » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:22 pm

Jasen777 wrote:Lima is a good fighter of course, but Rory was just being nice there. Hard to make the case that Lima is tougher than the guys who actually beat Rory.


Of course I thought Lima did beat Rory, and so does Rory's face or that face on his leg.

But who is one fighter not only beat but tooled, unlike Lima? It's the guy who is the current UFC champ, who has found a way to not technically lose to all the others himself.
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Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#48 » by Bernman » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:22 pm

REDDzone wrote:Also, Bern, Ben outlands Lima 800-7 if they ever fought again.


objection: relevancy
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Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#49 » by cowboyronnie » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:52 pm

Bernman wrote:
Jasen777 wrote:Lima is a good fighter of course, but Rory was just being nice there. Hard to make the case that Lima is tougher than the guys who actually beat Rory.


Of course I thought Lima did beat Rory, and so does Rory's face or that face on his leg.

But who is one fighter not only beat but tooled, unlike Lima? It's the guy who is the current UFC champ, who has found a way to not technically lose to all the others himself.


Oh damage not the judging criteria. Let's overrule the latter anytime it's convenient?
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Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#50 » by REDDzone » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:37 pm

cowboyronnie wrote:
Bernman wrote:
Jasen777 wrote:Lima is a good fighter of course, but Rory was just being nice there. Hard to make the case that Lima is tougher than the guys who actually beat Rory.


Of course I thought Lima did beat Rory, and so does Rory's face or that face on his leg.

But who is one fighter not only beat but tooled, unlike Lima? It's the guy who is the current UFC champ, who has found a way to not technically lose to all the others himself.


Oh damage not the judging criteria. Let's overrule the latter anytime it's convenient?


I agree with you and scored it for Rory. Yo be fair though Bern is consistent with scoring it that way. Also to be fair, Rory would probably agree with Bern lol.
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Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#51 » by Bernman » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:42 pm

cowboyronnie wrote:
Bernman wrote:
Jasen777 wrote:Lima is a good fighter of course, but Rory was just being nice there. Hard to make the case that Lima is tougher than the guys who actually beat Rory.


Of course I thought Lima did beat Rory, and so does Rory's face or that face on his leg.

But who is one fighter not only beat but tooled, unlike Lima? It's the guy who is the current UFC champ, who has found a way to not technically lose to all the others himself.


Oh damage not the judging criteria. Let's overrule the latter anytime it's convenient?


Yes, I'm consistent about that criteria, who would you rather be/damage, and I thought you were of that belief as well, to wit scored it for Lima. You just like to be contrarian?
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Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#52 » by cowboyronnie » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:53 am

REDDzone wrote:
cowboyronnie wrote:
Bernman wrote:
Of course I thought Lima did beat Rory, and so does Rory's face or that face on his leg.

But who is one fighter not only beat but tooled, unlike Lima? It's the guy who is the current UFC champ, who has found a way to not technically lose to all the others himself.


Oh damage not the judging criteria. Let's overrule the latter anytime it's convenient?


I agree with you and scored it for Rory. Yo be fair though Bern is consistent with scoring it that way. Also to be fair, Rory would probably agree with Bern lol.


That's ridiculous because the fighters aren't fighting for that criterion. Like saying, yeah, sorry Warriors, I only count them as 3 pt shots if they're from such and such a distance. Recalculating your historic season, you only won 71 games
...by my retroactive standard.

Where, if that were the actual standard, they would have played differently. Taken higher percentage shots for 2 or stepped back further for 3s.
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Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#53 » by REDDzone » Fri Feb 2, 2018 3:25 pm

Lima said on the mmahour that he didn't try to get back up because he was waiting on the ref to step in and stand them up. "I didn’t want to lose position and locked him in my guard, waiting for the referee to stand us back up again."

This is why ref standups are a problem. They make fighters stall MORE rather than less. As opposed to having an active guard, or doing what I said and playing butterfly guard or pushing off the hips, or doing what Askren said and turning away from Rory to get back to his feet, he just holds on for dear life and plays for a ref standup.

Its completely against the spirit of the sport. I'm glad it didn't work out for him and IMO its what lost him the fight.
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Re: Bellator 192: Lima vs. MacDonald, 1/20 

Post#54 » by Bernman » Fri Feb 2, 2018 5:17 pm

Lima has always been tactically suspect and often times hasn't shown the requisite urgency to gain requisite separation in multiple ways. The only thing that kept a few fighters in fights with him or even having them outduel him in a technical sense. Has the best combo of ability, fundamentals, and fighting instincts of any ww in the world (imo) and that puts him among the elites. But he can beat himself, while others play the game and maximize what they got.

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