Bellator General Discussion and Info

Jasen777 · Post #1361 » by **Jasen777** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:53 am

King Mo vs. Ishii tonight or it's already happened but it'll be on Spike tonight.

ShowtimeFan · Post #1362 » by **ShowtimeFan** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 5:59 pm

Don't get me wrong, I watch nearly every Bellator show, but they are soooo minor league it is funny... The best thing is that they are now picking up UFC cast-offs...

Bernman · Post #1363 » by **Bernman** » Fri Jan 20, 2017 10:51 pm

Don't know if tomorrow's Bellator is worth it's own thread, or not. Not really interested in Sonnen-Ortiz, outside the theater. But it has a pretty compelling under card in the cage - Ward/Daley, Sanchez/Karakhanyan, Kato/Gracie, and Anderson/Campos are all pretty good fights. Ward/Daley should have some theater too. And the prelims are good for a Bellator card too. You got Corrales/Bollinger, Millender/Cisneros, Chinzo Machida, Casey-Berry, Jack May, and a bunch of guys with decent records. Could well be a good night of fights from the alternative. UFC is off, so they'll have the night and weekend to themselves.

Post #1364 » by **spykelee** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:00 am

Go away Chael

REDDzone · Post #1365 » by **REDDzone** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:23 am

You guys know it annoys the sh*t out of me when people yell fixed fight. And I do not think it was fixed. But watch that finish, Chael literally lifts his chin and allows the choke to get deeper at one point. No clue wtf he was doing. The whole fight was more sketchy that Shamrock/Kimbo imo.

I won't lie and pretend like I cared enough to watch that fight or any other on the card, but did see the finish gif and now highlights.

REDDzone · Post #1366 » by **REDDzone** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:27 am

I knew when Chael started talking about how important beating Tito was to him that he would f*ck it up. Just like he did every title fight he ever had when that was the most important thing to him.

REDDzone · Post #1367 » by **REDDzone** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:31 am

Also, how terrible some of these wrestlers look on their backs is equally as embarrassing as how terrible some of these bjj guys look on their feet going for takedowns. Giving up that mount that easy was ridiculous.

Jasen777 · Post #1368 » by **Jasen777** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:40 pm

Daley with a flashy knockout.

cowboyronnie · Post #1369 » by **cowboyronnie** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 4:44 pm

God damnit. You have a responsibility when you sign to fight Tito. He gets to retire on a win now? After being barely .500. ****, Chael.

LOL, did he just, "O'Doyle Rules!" it? LOL He called on his 3 sons and shouted, "Ortiz rules!"

cowboyronnie · Post #1370 » by **cowboyronnie** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:13 pm

REDDzone wrote:You guys know it annoys the sh*t out of me when people yell fixed fight. And I do not think it was fixed. But watch that finish, Chael literally lifts his chin and allows the choke to get deeper at one point. No clue wtf he was doing. The whole fight was more sketchy that Shamrock/Kimbo imo.

I won't lie and pretend like I cared enough to watch that fight or any other on the card, but did see the finish gif and now highlights.

I was worried in advance that it was fixed. Not because that is a standard in the industry but because it's Chael

-Chael vs Rashad looked super sketch a couple years ago
-Chael loves pro wrestling, uses the words, "work" and "shoot" constantly, etc. Loves the biz/entertainment side.
-Chael has not a fibre of integrity in his being. A liar, a salesman.
-It's a realistic possibility that Chael only returned as a quick cash grab. Wants to minimize injury, fight superfights.
etc.
-Company man, yet went to Bellator
-Bellator has had fixed fights

The fight certainly didn't rule that out. A bunch of strange transitions. He had the guillotine position from mount, fell to his back? Against Tito Ortiz?? Took a couple forearms, and then immediately gave up his back? Let the choke go from a face crank to slide right under his neck? Looked like total bull.

A counter-point, though, is that this really dashes a fight with Fedor. Which would have been huge. Maybe Fedor's biggest possible fight (ever?).

Jasen777 · Post #1371 » by **Jasen777** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:42 pm

cowboyronnie wrote:-Bellator has had fixed fights

???

Chael is a bit sketchy, sure. He hadn't fought in 3 years though so rust could be an issue, who knows how he trained. Even then he hit a nice reversal on Tito's takedown to start, and dropping to finish a guillotine (I don't think he had mount?) is a standard move though of course it can back fire if you don't get it. Giving your back up to avoid mount and strikes from mount is not uncommon and maybe he did panic a bit with Tito on him like that. The choke defense was terrible, but Chael has never had good submission defense, I wonder if he even trains for someone having his back. And maybe he was like, **** it, that's enough to earn my 50k.

Fixed though implies an agreed upon outcome before the fight, and I really don't see why anyone would do that. And Bellator would have much rather had the guy who isn't retiring win.

Cammo101 · Post #1372 » by **Cammo101** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:18 pm

I don't think that fight was fixed as much as it was two over the hill part timers just looking bad. But, it is a bad look for Bellator that these "high profile" Saturday night cards keep ending with fans and other fighters thinking the fix is in. Maybe the fix to that is to stop putting on these novelty fights with guys so over the hill or bad that they tap to headlocks. Bellator has great fighters, let's get them out in front.

cowboyronnie · Post #1373 » by **cowboyronnie** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:07 pm

Jasen777 wrote:
cowboyronnie wrote:-Bellator has had fixed fights

???

Kimbo vs Shamrock

Jasen777 wrote:Chael is a bit sketchy, sure. He hadn't fought in 3 years though so rust could be an issue, who knows how he trained. Even then he hit a nice reversal on Tito's takedown to start, and dropping to finish a guillotine (I don't think he had mount?) is a standard move though of course it can back fire if you don't get it. Giving your back up to avoid mount and strikes from mount is not uncommon and maybe he did panic a bit with Tito on him like that. The choke defense was terrible, but Chael has never had good submission defense, I wonder if he even trains for someone having his back. And maybe he was like, **** it, that's enough to earn my 50k.

Chael has been competing in grappling, though. And he nevertheless made a whole sequence of bad moves that ended up with him tapping.

Jasen777 wrote:Fixed though implies an agreed upon outcome before the fight, and I really don't see why anyone would do that. And Bellator would have much rather had the guy who isn't retiring win.

I do not doubt that Chael and Rashad had, at the least, a gentleman's agreement to stick to just grappling in their fight. They were friends, they did not want to go for KO shots. That fight looked like **** too.

Bernman · Post #1374 » by **Bernman** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:01 pm

REDDzone wrote:You guys know it annoys the sh*t out of me when people yell fixed fight. And I do not think it was fixed. But watch that finish, Chael literally lifts his chin and allows the choke to get deeper at one point. No clue wtf he was doing. The whole fight was more sketchy that Shamrock/Kimbo imo.

I won't lie and pretend like I cared enough to watch that fight or any other on the card, but did see the finish gif and now highlights.

I saw it at the time and thought it was very fishy. Lifts chin and pulls Tito's arm further.

Also, for a very prolonged period of time he was holding a guillotine from half or no guard. No guard no guillotine. Shael is an experienced fighter and analyst. He knows that.

Doesn't need to be fixed by Bellator, or hell agreed upon by the fighters themselves. Just could be taking a dive to avoid damage. Bellator hasn't had fixed fights by them. That would be organizational suicide. They aren't some upstart relying on one guy so heavily like EliteXC were. And Tito winning doesn't benefit them.

One or two last sizable paycheck off Bellator for Shael, then the bad cowboy rides off into the sunset. Stephan Bonnar told him they're good marks.

Bellator is becoming more and more of a farce. That flying knee by Daley was nice and well set up. But the card was a disappointment that ended on a sour note. A couple of the fights it was bad luck they were average because they were entertaining as paper. But the main event and Kato-Gracie, now knowing Ralek is such a one-dimensional bjj guy, were predictably bad. They are going more for name than game. Viacom hasn't had a plan from the beginning, they took over Bjorn's baby, and have progressively bastardized it. People don't care until the freak fights, then they don't care after.

REDDzone · Post #1375 » by **REDDzone** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:23 pm

IDK man. I think there are four legitimately questionable things in this fight that makes it look like a complete work. First, Chael has a nice head and arm from top, Tito literally taps Chael and at that second, Chael switches position. Then, Chael gives up mount for no reason. Then when Tito was going RNC, Chael overtly lifts his chin and slides directly into the choke. Then he taps from a position that would have made Sage Northcutt blush.

REDDzone · Post #1376 » by **REDDzone** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:29 pm

Cammo101 wrote:I don't think that fight was fixed as much as it was two over the hill part timers just looking bad.

Cam, be objective for a second here. You were arguing that Shamrock/Kimbo was fixed despite people on this board telling you what happened in that sequence from a technical perspective. Additionally, you were arguing at the time that Ken would know how to do an RNC despite the fact that he hadn't done one in competition for like 20 years or something. :lol:

Now Tito and Chael have the most sketchy fight in bellator history and its just two over the hill fighters? Since Chael last fought, he's been grappling with the likes of Andre Galvao (the current ADCC superfight champion) and Babalu, and frankly he looked much better against both than he did Tito Ortiz. Nothing about this fight makes sense.

I think you would be arguing the other side if you weren't a big Chael fan tbh.

NFSW language:

Watch on YouTube

REDDzone · Post #1377 » by **REDDzone** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:36 pm

BTW, the data shows that old fighters are much less likely to be subbed than young fighters. Chin and submission defense actually have an inverse relationship in that regard. As fighters age, their chins decline, but age and submission defense have a strong positive correlation. So the old over the hill fighters argument actually goes against the trend for the majority of fighters.

cowboyronnie · Post #1378 » by **cowboyronnie** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:54 pm

I noticed a separate ghost tap from Tito as well, I think.

cowboyronnie · Post #1379 » by **cowboyronnie** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:58 pm

I assume it's highly illegal and prosecutable to have any kind of agreement as to the outcome of a fight. Given gambling. And actual hard evidence might be around of any type of communication you and the other guy have had. You would have to be so damn stealthy.

Chael has been in a couple prosecutors' offices at this point. Apparently (via Rogan), the federal government got involved when he hit for EPO.

Jasen777 · Post #1380 » by **Jasen777** » Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:04 pm

cowboyronnie wrote:Kimbo vs Shamrock

They could have done better if they were trying to fix a fight. Shamrock had said he hadn't trained RNCs in like a decade, it was just an embarrassing spectacle.

Maybe Sonnen took a dive, either planned ahead of time or once it got going and he just didn't want it. But that's not a fixed fight if no one else was in on it. There's about a 0% chance these guys could fix a fight without it coming out, so if people saying it was fixed re right, all we have to do is wait.

cowboyronnie wrote:I noticed a separate ghost tap from Tito as well, I think.

It did look like he was trying to tap at one point, but presumably he was signaling the reef he was ok.