Boxing Thread 3.0

HasheemThabeet · Post #421 » by **HasheemThabeet** » Tue May 29, 2012 4:46 am

I think Golden Boy would have to be on some hard core drugs to match Canelo up with Lara, don't want to kill the brand before it even grows. Kirkland and Molina seem like good choices since both are steps up in legit competition but not world beaters. Would Kirkland be ready for the fight if the sept 15 date is kept though?

On Bute: I can definitely see a Naz scenario where the guy just disappears into retirement

cowboyronnie · Post #422 » by **cowboyronnie** » Tue May 29, 2012 5:33 am

Butch718 wrote:It's going to be tough to regain confidence after a beat down like that. Unfortunately, real life isn't like a Rocky movie. Don't think you're going to be seeing a Clubber Lang like rebound from Bute here.

He arguably took a worse beating from Andrade.

Oh yeah, **** last Sats ref too. Why would he let that continue so long? And to give him simply a count at the very end? The guy apparently wanted a Benn-McClellan type situation.

Butch718 · Post #423 » by **Butch718** » Tue May 29, 2012 7:46 pm

Don't remember much of their fight except for that BS last round that the ref gift wrapped for Bute.

Back to Canelo, yeah I don't think GB matches up Canelo with Lara just yet. But it looks like they're willing to match him up with either Kirkland or Trout in September. I'd be very happy with either fight.

cowboyronnie · Post #424 » by **cowboyronnie** » Tue May 29, 2012 7:57 pm

Kirkland??? Why would they do that? Angulo just had his career shattered brawling with Kirkland. It's a terrible idea to put someone both talented/young and macho in there with the guy. It turns into a shoot-out, and your fighter loses years off his life/career.

Post #425 » by **Rich Rane** » Tue May 29, 2012 8:14 pm

Ugh...I just got caught up with the weekend's events outside the ring. My goodness...

Butch718 · Post #426 » by **Butch718** » Tue May 29, 2012 8:51 pm

Let's face it. They can't keep babying Canelo.

It's a good match up because Kirkland has an extremely problematic chin and Canelo hits like a damn mule. The biggest difference between Angula and Canelo is that Alvarez won't be stupid enough to get into a brawl. He'll box him, create distance and set up his power shots. I actually think Canelo picks Kirkland apart knocks him out in the later rounds. Another thing is that Kirkland is extremely susceptible to being hit. Not exactly a terrible match up.

Lara on the other hand would be an extremely problematic fight for Canelo.

Butch718 · Post #427 » by **Butch718** » Tue May 29, 2012 8:54 pm

I keep hearing people give credit to Anne Wolfe, and she deserves it. But she still hasn't done anything about all the holes in Kirkland's defense. Kirkland can get hit. The guy barely survived the first round against Angulo. And if he can be put down by the feather fisted Ishida, who's to say Canelo won't be able to do the same thing.

skflives · Post #428 » by **skflives** » Tue May 29, 2012 9:09 pm

HasheemThabeet wrote:I think Golden Boy would have to be on some hard core drugs to match Canelo up with Lara, don't want to kill the brand before it even grows. Kirkland and Molina seem like good choices since both are steps up in legit competition but not world beaters. Would Kirkland be ready for the fight if the sept 15 date is kept though?

On Bute: I can definitely see a Naz scenario where the guy just disappears into retirement

Kirkland was the first person they called and no he wouldn't have been ready by September.

skflives · Post #429 » by **skflives** » Tue May 29, 2012 9:12 pm

Butch718 wrote:Let's face it. They can't keep babying Canelo.

It's a good match up because Kirkland has an extremely problematic chin and Canelo hits like a damn mule. The biggest difference between Angula and Canelo is that Alvarez won't be stupid enough to get into a brawl. He'll box him, create distance and set up his power shots. I actually think Canelo picks Kirkland apart knocks him out in the later rounds. Another thing is that Kirkland is extremely susceptible to being hit. Not exactly a terrible match up.

Lara on the other hand would be an extremely problematic fight for Canelo.

I agree on all counts. Kirkland is a risky opponent but a manageable one. As for what you said about Wolfe, well sometimes a fighter is going to be what he is. Kirkland is powerful and talented with a ton of heart but he isn't the smartest fighter in the world. You can't really draw blood from a stone.

Butch718 · Post #430 » by **Butch718** » Tue May 29, 2012 9:42 pm

I think that's a bit of a cop out though. I think you can still improve one's technique and defense even if he is a brawler. I'm not expecting someone to change drastically, but there should be a little improvement. If you're still making the same mistakes that got you KTFO, that's a serious problem. The only notable difference I noticed under Wolfe is that Kirkland's stamina has been much better. It's the only reason why he survived that first round against Angulo. But really, he's lucky he even won that fight. Angulo left him an opening after he blew his load throwing all those punches.

skflives · Post #431 » by **skflives** » Wed May 30, 2012 12:39 am

I can see that but at the same time its reality. Not every trainer is Freddie Roach and not even Freddie Roach gets the job done with a fighter 100% of the time.

cowboyronnie · Post #432 » by **cowboyronnie** » Wed May 30, 2012 2:53 am

But Canelo can be hit too, is the problem.

HasheemThabeet · Post #433 » by **HasheemThabeet** » Wed May 30, 2012 3:47 am

that's why I thought the Paul Williams fight would've been a good one, his defense hasn't been that tested yet in his career and lets other guys dictate the pace at times. That was a problem vs. Alfonso Gomez for a couple of rounds.

Should just fight the Spinks/Bundrage winner

Butch718 · Post #434 » by **Butch718** » Wed May 30, 2012 12:21 pm

cowboyronnie wrote:But Canelo can be hit too, is the problem.

Not as big a problem as Kirkland getting hit. If Kirkland gets caught by one of Canelo's power shots, he's going down. The guy has no chin. Plus he's a naturally aggressive fighter which plays into Canelo's ability to counter punch. It's a good match up. I know Mosley is completely shot but I was impressed in the manner in which Canelo systematically pick him apart. It's time to test this kid a little. Can't keep giving him soft balls.

cowboyronnie · Post #435 » by **cowboyronnie** » Wed May 30, 2012 10:31 pm

Kirkland quite possibly just ended the career of a young, super strong, macho Mexican. Angulo's promoters really screwed up. A couple of us on here in anticipation of that fight called it: one of these guys will never be the same. And it came true. Angulo lost years off his life/cogency and has not fought since.

Canelo is better than Kirkland, but also has way more to lose should it get into a brawl. That's my main point. Canelo is Golden Boy 2.0, except with machismo and suspect defense and a willingness to get hit, so why put him in with a headhunter who ruins fighters? I understand the match-up favors him, but I also can't think of too many more dangerous fighters in boxing. Again:

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?cat=bo ... _id=288697

Butch718 · Post #436 » by **Butch718** » Thu May 31, 2012 12:04 am

Come on man. Angulo's promoters didn't mess up. Angulo did. Plain and simple.

Angulo had that fight won in the first round, but he foolishly blew his load by throwing all those punches. Instead of picking his spots, he gassed himself out. That was his mistake. Canelo won't be foolish enough to do the same thing. That's not his style. For a guy in his early 20's, Canelo possesses much better ring IQ than Angulo ever will. Angulo was a straight up brawler. Canelo is turning out to be a fantastic counter puncher that feels his opponents out before he starts setting them up for his power shots. That's the difference between the two fighters.

Style wise, it's a terrific match up for Canelo. You don't become a star in this sport by not taking risks. The only question I pose to those that don't like this fight for him, if not now then when? How long do they keep throwing him softballs before he faces some real competition? When exactly is a good time to face someone like Kirkland? Canelo may be young but he's been fighting professionally for 6 years now(41 bouts under his belt) and has a good amateur background to boot. He's not exactly a fish out of water anymore.

HasheemThabeet · Post #437 » by **HasheemThabeet** » Thu May 31, 2012 2:13 am

+1 man.
Canelo has been brought on supremely slow, guy has 40 fights under his belt and the level of competition has been such a slow, gradual increase. I'm okay with GB avoiding Lara right now who himself might be the future at that division but you eventually got to put him up against a gatekeeper. I guess Kirkland can ruin Alvarez potentially but it's not like Alvarez isn't the clear favorite in that fight with some good advantages

cowboyronnie · Post #438 » by **cowboyronnie** » Thu May 31, 2012 10:49 am

His 40 pros don't mean the same. He has 40 pro fights and _zero amateur fights_.

Most guys literally have a hundred plus amateur fights before their first pro.

skflives · Post #439 » by **skflives** » Thu May 31, 2012 2:17 pm

HasheemThabeet wrote:+1 man.
Canelo has been brought on supremely slow, guy has 40 fights under his belt and the level of competition has been such a slow, gradual increase. I'm okay with GB avoiding Lara right now who himself might be the future at that division but you eventually got to put him up against a gatekeeper. I guess Kirkland can ruin Alvarez potentially but it's not like Alvarez isn't the clear favorite in that fight with some good advantages

I think that's a little harsh. Sure he was brought up slow but he's faced progessively tougher veterans over the past few years. At the very least he's been facing much tougher opposition than Julio Caesar Chavez Jr in my honest opinion. But at the same time I think it would be nice to see him fight another top young prospect at this point in his career. That way he can say he beat another guy whose career was heading up rather than beating guys on their way out.

Butch718 · Post #440 » by **Butch718** » Thu May 31, 2012 6:42 pm

cowboyronnie wrote:His 40 pros don't mean the same. He has 40 pro fights and _zero amateur fights_.

Most guys literally have a hundred plus amateur fights before their first pro.

He has 20 amateur bouts under his belt, in which he was a junior national champion in 2005. He also won a silver medal during the junior Mexican national championships in 2004. Whether it's 100 amateur fights or 20, the kid has a good amateur background. He didn't need 100 bouts because he was already ahead of the curve. It's not about the amount of fights, but what he accomplished during that period of time.