Do belts in MMA even matter anymore?

REDDzone · Post #1 » by **REDDzone** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:31 pm

This is a question I've been pondering for awhile, and one that has come up in the media circles in the MMA content that I consume as well. Do belts even matter anymore?

I feel like it used to be the end-all, be-all, now it seems like nobody cares and titles are de-valued. This isn't a fully fleshed out opinion, at the moment, just curious as to everyone's' thoughts. Here is some evidence, many of which are anecdotes, but throw it all together and I think you can see a trend:

Cammo101 · Post #2 » by **Cammo101** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 4:39 pm

Unless you are one of the elite PPV draws like Conor or Brock, then the belts still mean what they always did. It's the way that 99% of the fighters in the UFC can get the most money and the biggest fights. There are a handful of guys tops who don't play by these rules.

Post #3 » by **Headliner** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:52 pm

Belts mean a lot IMO, only a very select few have risen above belts.

Guys like Bones, Silva, GSP, Fedor, they are the four legends of the sport. They do not need a belt, they've surpassed that in their careers and their name is worth more than a title.

Guys like Randy, Chuck, W.Silva, Henderson raised above belts by sheer volume/library of names that they fought and beat.

Connor is the lone guy that has rise above belts by using style and the promoting aspect to sell his fights. This model will be replicated by many others in the future, and may begin to water down its ability to rise above belts, but for now, he's the lone guy able to do it.

Other than those guys though, I think belts matter for the rest. Especially for heavyweights and the lighter divisions.

Bernman · Post #4 » by **Bernman** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:55 pm

You forgot to mention Bisping has one now. That's the day belts lost all their meaning.

Bernman · Post #5 » by **Bernman** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:53 am

In all seriousness, a contingent in combat sports has always looked at themselves as prizefighters, because of the mere nature of the business. And it's natural once you get older to receive that financial security, plus you don't necessarily think you can compete with the best anymore.

Due to USADA testing, there was a sea change, there was also a sea level change, so that caused some flux, and maybe the perception that titles don't mean as much anymore. Give it time to level off and for the true champs to emerge, maintain.

I think Zuffa was star, big fight chasing too because there was that lull in draws. That could return back to normal or they could just shift the philosophy permanently because they don't want to fix what's not broken.

Titles are never not going to matter entirely or not significantly ever though. There's allure in being the best in sport, especially MMA, where you can be viewed as the baddest man on the planet. For them - save us Bjorn.

REDDzone · Post #6 » by **REDDzone** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:20 am

Maybe my question is meant to be more relative than it came off. Of course belts matter. I'm just wondering if they matter less as compared to how they much they used to.

Its mostly spurred by how some of the biggest stars (GSP, Conor) in the sport are pursuing big name fights and super fights as opposed to chasing belts, while at the same time embarrassing title fights like those including Dan Henderson and random tuf winner #427 are being made.

REDDzone · Post #7 » by **REDDzone** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:23 am

Maybe its just me. I have shared this before but I was a fan of the sport early on, and then when I came back to my modern fandom, there seemed to be a lot of dominant champs --- BJ, GSP, Silva, etc. And not very many of them, BTW. These days there are 10 champions, plus any random BS interim champs, plus talk of adding additional divisions. And the belts seem to pass around like hot potatoes.

Bernman · Post #8 » by **Bernman** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:58 am

I'm mostly saying it's probably timing from a confluence of factors and it should pass in time. You'll likely have it the way you prefer in the future. If not from the UFC, then elsewhere. Bjorn will emerge from the Mexican bunker he's been hiding in and you'll get tournament MMA on ESPN or wherever.

That's another factor in all this. Look at how their #1 competitor, Bellator, is behaving. They barely care about titles themselves. They are more interested in putting on freakshows. They get #1, and sometimes #2 billing as well. Before UFC had Bjornator and Strikeforce to keep them honest. Now they have little from a talent and pure sport perspective.

Post #9 » by **CPT** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:18 am

Good question, but I don't know if I have a good answer.

One thought that came to mind, however, is to look at the list of current UFC champs, and see how many of them are truly the best in their division. By that I mean they would be favoured (or at least 50/50) against every fighter in their division.

WSW: JJ (I think so)
WBW: Nunes (I don't think so)
FLW: Johnson (by far the strongest champ)
BW: Cruz (I think so)
FW: McGregor (I don't think so)
LW: Alvarez (Nope)
WW: Lawler (Maybe)
MW: Bisping (LOL)
LHW: DC (Jones complicates things, but that's the reality, so I'm gonna say no)
HW: Miocic (sometimes forget he is champ)

That's not a particularly inspiring group if you're talking about the legitimacy of championship belts.

Jasen777 · Post #10 » by **Jasen777** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:06 pm

Nunes, Alvarez, and Miocic were fairly legitimate "next one up challengers." It's not the UFC's fault for Jones' problems. Given the late notice, I'd even give the a pass on Bisping - but parlaying that into a Hendo shot is unforgivable, and I'm probably done with the sport if that's the new norm. They should have stripped McGregor (when he wanted the Diaz rematch) but how would Aldo look as champ after that loss?

But the GSP/Silva/Jones era of long running champions may be over. What would that do to the idea of the belt if 2 successful defenses was the exception?

Bernman · Post #11 » by **Bernman** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:26 pm

Jasen777 wrote:Nunes, Alvarez, and Miocic were fairly legitimate "next one up challengers." It's not the UFC's fault for Jones' problems. Given the late notice, I'd even give the a pass on Bisping - but parlaying that into a Hendo shot is unforgivable, and I'm probably done with the sport if that's the new norm. They should have stripped McGregor (when he wanted the Diaz rematch) but how would Aldo look as champ after that loss?

But the GSP/Silva/Jones era of long running champions may be over. What would that do to the idea of the belt if 2 successful defenses was the exception?

They could have had Holloway vs. Edgar. One never lost to Conor, the other a while ago while he was super young and had a busted foot from the outset (of course Conor himself tore his acl though). I think that would have been marketable. I think if Conor was going to chase money in other divisions and they themselves were going to chase "super-fights", then they had concede the belt. Conor never should have fought for it in the first place if that was his plan, and they shouldn't have let him. Made him switch to 155 straight away if he wasn't long for 145. Never understood the concept of fighting for a belt before leaving a weight class. You get it, you defend it when available.

I for one don't find belt turnover to be a negative. Makes things interesting. For the longest time, Jon Jones, Jose Aldo, and GSP's fights, weren't. Anderson was the only dominant champion who was good for the sport, IMO, because he was entertaining, and his hold on the title still managed to be tenuous. Parity is a good thing. It produces great fights more often, and other sports even build-in rules to create it.

REDDzone · Post #12 » by **REDDzone** » Wed Jul 13, 2016 12:00 am

I agree in general its more exciting. But IMO the most exciting moments in the sport are when two guys on the warpath who seem invincible are slated to fight each other. Think Cormier/Bones I, fights like that.

I think ufc devalues the titles by not encouraging the champs to fight the best fighters in the division. Conor should have fought Edgar or vacate as you say. Additionally, I thought Ariel made a great point on his show this week, Bisping has had seven years to avenge the Hendo loss. You shouldn't become champion and then start calling for personal fights like that. You should be ready and willing to face the number one guy and the next guy in line.

REDDzone · Post #13 » by **REDDzone** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:30 am

Bumping to see if anyone feels differently about this now that we have had 5-6 months under WME.

We have interim belts for fake versions of belts. We have interim belts being made for champions who fought within the last month (Khabib is saying he was offered interim title vs Ferguson). We have a women's 145 lb division with 2 blown up 135ers competing for the belt, one I've never seen fight and the other coming off two straight losses.

Belts are watered down and actually mean way less than when I first made this thread.

ShowtimeFan · Post #14 » by **ShowtimeFan** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:00 pm

Do belts in MMA even matter anymore?

They do to the Champions...!

Jasen777 · Post #15 » by **Jasen777** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:08 pm

ShowtimeFan wrote:They do to the Champions...!

Not for long at this rate.

REDDzone · Post #16 » by **REDDzone** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:56 pm

ShowtimeFan wrote:Do belts in MMA even matter anymore?

They do to the Champions...!

What about interim champs? What about fighters who hold fake versions of interim belts?

phanman · Post #17 » by **phanman** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:24 am

REDDzone wrote:
ShowtimeFan wrote:Do belts in MMA even matter anymore?

They do to the Champions...!

What about interim champs? What about fighters who hold fake versions of interim belts?

I don't think the interim label matters at all for these fighters. They can still say they were once champions of their respective divisions. I heard Max say that at least being interim champ gives the holder a clear path to set up a unification bout and become the actual champion. Which is huge nowadays with title shots being given out based off story-lines and matchups as opposed to merit.

The interim tag is all about making fighters happy at the end of the day though.

UFC 189 - Conor was happy winning his first belt over Mendes
UFC 189 - Mendes was happy to fight for the FW belt a third time and winning would have set up an immediately set up Aldo/Mendes 3

UFC 200 - Aldo was happy because he thought winning the interim belt would lead directly to that elusive rematch with Conor
UFC 200 - Edgar was happy to fight for his 2nd belt.

UFC 206 - Pettis happy to fight for his 2nd belt - though he missed weight
UFC 206 - Holloway happy to finally get his first belt and similar to Aldo's thinking it directly sets up a matchup with Jose, whom he thinks has been dodging him.

Nemesis21 · Post #18 » by **Nemesis21** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:43 pm

Great question and topic to discuss!

NZB2323 · Post #19 » by **NZB2323** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:20 pm

They certainly matter less, but they still matter. It depends on the belt, I suppose. Mighty Mouse has defended his belt 9 times. Dominick Cruz holds the BW belt and has 5 title defenses. The HW belt has the mystic of belonging to the baddest man on the planet, and the record for UFC HW title defenses is 2.

All the other belts are watered down in meaning, for one reason or another, with Max Holloway's belt being the most watered down, but the silliness of giving Holloway a FW belt for being a guy who wasn't at FW while there was already an interm champion doesn't diminish the worth of Mighty Mouse's belt.

REDDzone · Post #20 » by **REDDzone** » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:27 pm

I think Mouse is at worst the second best fighter on the planet. Now that that's out of the way. Does his belt really mean as much as the 170 or 155? The division is just so weak and limited. And hell I'm not even just talking subjectively, I'm talking, number of fighters in the division is literally limited.

If Holly Holm wins the 145 belt, will that mean anything? She will be the queen of a division with two fighters and coming off a losing streak in a lower weight division.