Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread

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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#801 » by Susan » Sun Jun 2, 2019 8:33 am

Gus has clearly slowed down since his latest comeback.

Pretty sure Chael is right here. Gus has some sort of injury and isn't the same fighter anymore.

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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#802 » by gigantes » Sun Jun 2, 2019 1:49 pm

Jasen777 wrote:
gigantes wrote:Honestly, if this is the end for Gus, I'm a bit sad. The man went from arguably winning the first Jones fight, which would have shocked the world, to a string of misfortunes against his following opponents. He was one of the very best at his peak, but I'm not sure if he'll be appreciated for that, in future. Meanwhile, plenty of worse, less-consistent fighters have held UFC gold at least once.

Ah well...


It's hard to say when he best fights were losses. His best win was 37 year old Glover I guess? He lost to all the other top tier fighters he fought. Jones, D.C, Rumble, even Davis. That doesn't make him "one of the very best" to me, though I guess it does depend on how you define the term because he's wasn't far off it.

Uh... his best fights, Jones1 and DC, were incredible fights that could have gone either way. That's why I said what I did about his misfortunes.

And in quoting me you left out the key words "...at his peak." See, that makes all the difference. He was right there with the big three for a few years, and that represents his peak.

But is Gus "one of the very best ever?" No, probably not. For one thing, it's just too silly to throw that phrase around so lightly in such a young sport, but more to the point-- he was a top contender, and that's it. There's always top contenders. That said, he was stuck behind two of the true greats, in DC and Jones.
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#803 » by lilfishi22 » Sun Jun 2, 2019 11:49 pm

Susan wrote:
REDDzone wrote:Gus is the biggest myth this side of Cain. He benefitted from fighting in the worst division in the worst era for said division ever, and was still outside of the top 3 for most of his career. And people laughed at me for saying Gus and Bader were in the same tier. Who would be the favorite if those two fought tomorrow? Legit question.


He showed that his top level was as high as pretty much anybody in the sport. His first fight against Jones and his fight against DC were absolute WARS and he embarrassed Glover pretty bad.

Top 4 LHWs of the past 4-5 years are clearly Jones, DC, Johnson, Gus but Bader is right there at 5.

To me, Gus is the Brandon Roy of the 205 division. At his peak, he was #3 behind Jones and DC but he was right there among the best of the best. As Reddzone mentioned, he was just never healthy enough to put the momentum he had after wins to go on a consistent run. He'd fight and then get injured and then has to sit out while the rest of the division got better and other fighters went on their on run.

But I truly think at his peak he was better than all but Jones and DC, even though I thought he beat Jones in the 1st fight (which seems like a lifetime ago now). With Bader, I thought he was good but not great right when Gus was going on his title run. Gus' peak was kind of between 2012-2014 (he only fought 3 times during that span) and during that time Bader got KO'd by Machida and Glover. It was after Gus got KO'd by Rumble did I start to think that he was on his decline. Bader at the same time started to really string some W's together before also getting KO'd by Rumble. But unlike Gus, Bader came back strong from that loss to KO Latifi and Little Nog and then went over to Bellator to become the Champ Champ.

I mostly agree with your list with one exception

Jones
DC
Gus
Rumble (even though he beat Gus, I thought he got embarrassed both times he got to the big stage)
Bader
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#804 » by cowboyronnie » Sun Jun 2, 2019 11:54 pm

Susan wrote:Gus has clearly slowed down since his latest comeback.

Pretty sure Chael is right here. Gus has some sort of injury and isn't the same fighter anymore.



Yeah, he reacted pretty dramatically to a shot to his ribs. And then went flat in the grappling, as if conceding.
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#805 » by AirCanadaMouse » Wed Jun 5, 2019 3:05 am

Someone has to say it, but I think Gus is one of the more overrated fighters in recent memory. If not the most overrated of all time...
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#806 » by lilfishi22 » Wed Jun 5, 2019 3:36 am

AirCanadaMouse wrote:Someone has to say it, but I think Gus is one of the more overrated fighters in recent memory. If not the most overrated of all time...

In what way?
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#807 » by AirCanadaMouse » Wed Jun 5, 2019 11:52 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
AirCanadaMouse wrote:Someone has to say it, but I think Gus is one of the more overrated fighters in recent memory. If not the most overrated of all time...

In what way?


I think he's a solid boxer with great cardio and a decent all around game aside from those traits, so maybe not so much overrated as a fighter...however, his legacy is very overrated. No debate.

That DC fight wasn't as close as people make it out to be either, and every big fight he had he blew it. I don't like Rumble at all, but you can't tell me he's better than him. His legacy is dependent on having a close fight with Jon Jones, but even then, Jones was a clear winner too.

Gus happened to be in LHW division at a very shallow time and still couldn't take advantage. While DC and Jones are a tier above everybody, Gus wasn't even better than the guys who were in that second tier (Phil Davis, Ryan Bader, Rumble, Glover etc). He wasn't a Brandon Roy in that sense, at all.

His recent wins were severely underwhelming too, the Jan fight was forgettable and he had to constantly poke Glover in the eye before he got a KO. I don't think people realize just how many times he had poked him in the eye either, there was a reason why Gus was landing the uppercut at will, Glover couldn't see at all (as he stated on his most recent MMA hour appearance with Ariel, he even said it was worse than Jones' pokes). On top of this, his constant injuries never helped his momentum either.

You can't consider Gus one of the best LHW when he consistently fell short time and time again. While his performance against Jones was amazing, that's really all to his career, and I mean it.

He's just that. A good, solid fighter. Not great, not elite, and any narrative that he is will continue to diminish as time goes on. I take the Chuck Liddel's, the Tito Ortiz's and the guys from the era before him as far as legacy goes over Gus. The Manuwa win is the best on his resume, that doesn't cut it for me. Overrated.

And I don't care how little you have in the tank, you can't lose to Anthony Smith at any point in your career if you want to be considered one of the best LHWs. That hurts his legacy even further. Shite performance. Seems like he had a lot of those near the end, it completely overshadows the good one's he had earlier in his career for sure.
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#808 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jun 6, 2019 12:19 am

AirCanadaMouse wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
AirCanadaMouse wrote:Someone has to say it, but I think Gus is one of the more overrated fighters in recent memory. If not the most overrated of all time...

In what way?


I think he's a solid boxer with great cardio and a decent all around game aside from those traits, so maybe not so much overrated as a fighter...however, his legacy is very overrated. No debate.

That DC fight wasn't as close as people make it out to be either, and every big fight he had he blew it. I don't like Rumble at all, but you can't tell me he's better than him. His legacy is dependent on having a close fight with Jon Jones, but even then, Jones was a clear winner too.

Gus happened to be in LHW division at a very shallow time and still couldn't take advantage. While DC and Jones are a tier above everybody, Gus wasn't even better than the guys who were in that second tier (Phil Davis, Ryan Bader, Rumble, Glover etc). He wasn't a Brandon Roy in that sense, at all.

His recent wins were severely underwhelming too, the Jan fight was forgettable and he had to constantly poke Glover in the eye before he got a KO. I don't think people realize just how many times he had poked him in the eye either, there was a reason why Gus was landing the uppercut at will, Glover couldn't see at all (as he stated on his most recent MMA hour appearance with Ariel, he even said it was worse than Jones' pokes). On top of this, his constant injuries never helped his momentum either.

You can't consider Gus one of the best LHW when he consistently fell short time and time again. While his performance against Jones was amazing, that's really all to his career, and I mean it.

He's just that. A good, solid fighter. Not great, not elite, and any narrative that he is will continue to diminish as time goes on. I take the Chuck Liddel's, the Tito Ortiz's and the guys from the era before him as far as legacy goes over Gus. The Manuwa win is the best on his resume, that doesn't cut it for me. Overrated.

And I don't care how little you have in the tank, you can't lose to Anthony Smith at any point in your career if you want to be considered one of the best LHWs. That hurts his legacy even further. Shite performance. Seems like he had a lot of those near the end, it completely overshadows the good one's he had earlier in his career for sure.

The LHW division was shallow and had been shallow for some time but for much of his UFC tenure, he was one of the best guys. Looking at the guys he's lost to, he's only lost to undisputed champs and title contenders (Smith and Rumble). He's beaten everyone else they put in front of him. I don't know why he can't be considered one of the best in his division only losing the the cream of the crop. I put him in that same group of fighter like Frankie and Uriah who were considered one of the best and only lost in title fights until basically towards the tail end of their UFC career.

You talk about the eye poke on Glover but how about the headbutt from Rumble? He's not the best but he's absolutely one of the top guys in that division.
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#809 » by Jasen777 » Thu Jun 6, 2019 3:57 am

AirCanadaMouse wrote:The LHW division was shallow and had been shallow for some time but for much of his UFC tenure, he was one of the best guys. Looking at the guys he's lost to, he's only lost to undisputed champs and title contenders (Smith and Rumble). He's beaten everyone else they put in front of him. I don't know why he can't be considered one of the best in his division only losing the the cream of the crop. I put him in that same group of fighter like Frankie and Uriah who were considered one of the best and only lost in title fights until basically towards the tail end of their UFC career.


Frankie won the title a weight class (or more) above his natural weight. Faber won the title in WEC when they had the best smaller fighters. Gus is in the same range as Bader and Davis, certainly not clearly above them and no where near Frankie or Uriah.


lilfishi22 wrote:You talk about the eye poke on Glover but how about the headbutt from Rumble? He's not the best but he's absolutely one of the top guys in that division.


Gus also eye poked Rumble, which was a mistake, as immediately post- eye poke Rumble is the GOAT.
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#810 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jun 6, 2019 4:47 am

Jasen777 wrote:
AirCanadaMouse wrote:The LHW division was shallow and had been shallow for some time but for much of his UFC tenure, he was one of the best guys. Looking at the guys he's lost to, he's only lost to undisputed champs and title contenders (Smith and Rumble). He's beaten everyone else they put in front of him. I don't know why he can't be considered one of the best in his division only losing the the cream of the crop. I put him in that same group of fighter like Frankie and Uriah who were considered one of the best and only lost in title fights until basically towards the tail end of their UFC career.


Frankie won the title a weight class (or more) above his natural weight. Faber won the title in WEC when they had the best smaller fighters. Gus is in the same range as Bader and Davis, certainly not clearly above them and no where near Frankie or Uriah.


lilfishi22 wrote:You talk about the eye poke on Glover but how about the headbutt from Rumble? He's not the best but he's absolutely one of the top guys in that division.


Gus also eye poked Rumble, which was a mistake, as immediately post- eye poke Rumble is the GOAT.

Neither Bader nor Phil got to fight for a UFC title.
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#811 » by Jasen777 » Thu Jun 6, 2019 5:32 am

lilfishi22 wrote:Neither Bader nor Phil got to fight for a UFC title.


I'm sure they could have lost also.

Bader was just as deserving after beating Davis and Evans as Gus was after beating Thiago and washed up Shogun. The main difference is Gus avoided Rumble until after his title shot and Bader didn't. Davis has that win over Gus, and also only didn't get a title shot beacuse he ran into Rumble first.

Rumble is clearly the #3 LHW in the Jones/DC era.
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#812 » by lilfishi22 » Thu Jun 6, 2019 6:00 am

Jasen777 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Neither Bader nor Phil got to fight for a UFC title.


I'm sure they could have lost also.

Bader was just as deserving after beating Davis and Evans as Gus was after beating Thiago and washed up Shogun. The main difference is Gus avoided Rumble until after his title shot and Bader didn't. Davis has that win over Gus, and also only didn't get a title shot beacuse he ran into Rumble first.

Rumble is clearly the #3 LHW in the Jones/DC era.

Respectfully disagree. It's close but I put Gus in front of him because of the way he lost his title fights. That's my subjective opinion
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#813 » by REDDzone » Thu Jun 6, 2019 12:54 pm

I'd go towards Rumble, personally. Just because Rumble literally only lost to DC at LHW and had wins over Gus himself, Davis, Bader, Glover. Whereas Gus had losses to Rumble, Jonesx2, DC, Davis, Anthony Smith and his best wins were Glover and...old Shogun I guess? Gus just doesn't have the quality wins.
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#814 » by NO-KG-AI » Thu Jun 6, 2019 1:00 pm

Yea, Rumble put a beating on every one of the other guys vying for the 3rd spot. He's the easy 3rd guy.
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#815 » by AirCanadaMouse » Thu Jun 6, 2019 2:04 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
Jasen777 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Neither Bader nor Phil got to fight for a UFC title.


I'm sure they could have lost also.

Bader was just as deserving after beating Davis and Evans as Gus was after beating Thiago and washed up Shogun. The main difference is Gus avoided Rumble until after his title shot and Bader didn't. Davis has that win over Gus, and also only didn't get a title shot beacuse he ran into Rumble first.

Rumble is clearly the #3 LHW in the Jones/DC era.

Respectfully disagree. It's close but I put Gus in front of him because of the way he lost his title fights. That's my subjective opinion


I think you need to watch that DC fight again. As I said already, it really wasn’t that close


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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#816 » by AirCanadaMouse » Thu Jun 6, 2019 2:06 pm

AirCanadaMouse wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
Jasen777 wrote:
I'm sure they could have lost also.

Bader was just as deserving after beating Davis and Evans as Gus was after beating Thiago and washed up Shogun. The main difference is Gus avoided Rumble until after his title shot and Bader didn't. Davis has that win over Gus, and also only didn't get a title shot beacuse he ran into Rumble first.

Rumble is clearly the #3 LHW in the Jones/DC era.

Respectfully disagree. It's close but I put Gus in front of him because of the way he lost his title fights. That's my subjective opinion


I think you need to watch that DC fight again. As I said already, it really wasn’t that close. His resume isn’t all that impressive in retrospect. I just think people were surprised with his ability to wrestle amongst Jones and DC, but easy fights to score at the end.


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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#817 » by REDDzone » Thu Jun 6, 2019 2:50 pm

It wasn't close decision wise but he did have the moment when he dropped DC. I thought briefly he was going to finish him.
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#818 » by cowboyronnie » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:20 pm

Tonight's event is terrible. But remarkable for having some of the all-time punishment-takers:

KZ
Barbarena (how is he back so soon after that insane fight against Luque)
...and the return of...MATT WIMAN
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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#819 » by GoRapstheoriginal » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:01 pm

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Re: Non-threadworthy UFC Events Thread 

Post#820 » by cowboyronnie » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:54 pm

Has Ngannou left his French trainers to work with...Dewey Cooper?? As his head trainer?

Dude.
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