Bellator 180 (6/24): Wand v. Chael (PPV @ MSG)

Bernman · Post #1 » by **Bernman** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:51 pm

This is Bellator's 2nd foray into the ppv medium. The first one was a surprising success when it eclipsed 100k buys and was hailed as wildly entertaining. But that was in a different era a few years ago.

It's their first attempt at staging fights in newly accessible NY let alone Madison Square Garden.

I'm not normally one for fights between past their primes legendd, but I think I'll be kind of into this. There's a lot of history between those two individuals. They have a score to settle. And if Chael wants the easy way out I'm not sure Wand will let him have it.

The co-main event which was just announced is the previously dissolved match-up between Fedor Emelianenko and Matt Mitrione when Meathead fell ill just before the event was to take place.

The rest of the card is not yet known, however Coker claims "this is going to be the biggest fight card put together by any company so far in the pay-per-view business". He's a promoter, but that's still big talk for one. So they must be trying to do it up, in their eyes.

Bellator reportedly intends to debut a portion of their new signings. One that they just made which could appear is Darth Bader. Not exactly a fan favorite, but a name, good fighter, and opponent they should use for one of their fighters with more upside to try and build their name off, if they're smart (which they aren't, usually). Larkin vs. Lima is a potential landing spot for this card, although it would be upstaged by 2 non title-fights, in typical Bellator fashion.

REDDzone · Post #2 » by **REDDzone** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:02 pm

IDK about biggest ever but I'm sure Coker will do his best to stack the deck as much as possible. Think of when Strikeforce was on cbs, for example. Fedor, Mousasi, King Mo, Shields, Mayhem, etc. across multiple title fights.

Larkin is a huge get for them, IMO. I'm a late arrival on the Lorenz train (bern was early IIRC), but man he looked great in his last little UFC run. Especially if you scored that Tumenov fight for him which I believe I did.

Bernman · Post #3 » by **Bernman** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:34 pm

I liked Larkin, because of his techniques and setups, as well as his tdd + overall performance displayed against Carmont when he was a contender and Larkin got robbed, but subsequently he had a hard time figuring out when to pull the trigger. He got gun-shy in his fights and suffered a couple losses from it. But he's on a nice little heater. Bellator got him when his career was on the upswing and was not a UFC reject by any means. I think he was rising to contender there.

Signs point to James Gallagher being on this card. I thought that would happen seeing as though it's on the east coast and he has a big Irish following. He's going to have to face a real opponent. A fight vs. Justin Lawrence would be cool.

NZB2323 · Post #4 » by **NZB2323** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:23 pm

I'm excited for this card. If they're really stacking the deck it could be a really good card.

REDDzone · Post #5 » by **REDDzone** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:19 pm

NZB2323 wrote:I'm excited for this card. If they're really stacking the deck it could be a really good card.

I'm curious if commercial establishments are going to buy the ppv. Pretty much the only way I would watch live.

NZB2323 · Post #6 » by **NZB2323** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:23 pm

REDDzone wrote:
NZB2323 wrote:I'm excited for this card. If they're really stacking the deck it could be a really good card.

I'm curious if commercial establishments are going to buy the ppv. Pretty much the only way I would watch live.

If it gets enough hype I could see BWW picking it up. It's also the only way I would watch it live.

Jasen777 · Post #7 » by **Jasen777** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:25 pm

Dave and Buster's?

REDDzone · Post #8 » by **REDDzone** » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:36 pm

^ Good point.

cowboyronnie · Post #9 » by **cowboyronnie** » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:33 am

Wanderlei rd 1 RNC

Bernman · Post #10 » by **Bernman** » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:45 pm

Officially added Lima/Larkin and Chandler/Primus as title fights underneath the borderline freak fights.

If it was me, I would have arranged it like: Chael/Wand, Chandler/Patrico Pitbull, Lima/Larkin, Fedor/Rampage; in that order. Then you put your title fights more in the spotlight and there's plenty of saleability. Chael and Rampage could get out in the mainstream and sell it. You have rivalries to sell between Chael/Wand and Chand/Pitbull bros. Show what clips of the background you could show. They apparently will have Gallagher on the card somewhere. Sign Duffy and put Dillon Danis on there to help fill MSG with drunk, jingoistic Irishmen. Put Demi Lovato's boyfriend Guillherme Bomba on the prelims so she Tweets and talks about it in the mainstream. I think the first ppv did better than expected because Rampage got on Craig Ferguson and ESPN.

Vis a vis the title fights, Lima vs. Larkin they got right. That will be a barnburner. But Chandler-Primus leaves a little to be desired. If they were going with a prospect, I'd have preferred to see Piccolotti. He's a little more talented and has a fan base, at least in Cali I know he does. Really what they should have done was not burn Thomson as a contender. Then when they did, matched up Patricio Pitbull with Chandler instead of Straus. We've seen Pitbull-Straus 3 times already. Weichel was probably the better alternative there. And Pitbull-Chandler has extra interest as a grudge match. They could play that clip of Chandler ko'ing his brother with that vicious right and then while Chandler was celebrating on the cage lip, Patricio running over and repeatedly yelling in broken English "I want to fight you", which in response Iron Mike mockingly asked, "you....want to fight....me?!?!". I think he said he'd kill him too or something like that. Yeah, Bellator's match-making and priorities kinda suck.

Still, those are good fights and it's a decent ppv card so far, because they're really trying to commit to it.

REDDzone · Post #11 » by **REDDzone** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 3:48 am

Pico will debut. I hope he looks good, seems like a couple of these wrestlers have had a little bit of trouble in bellator lately. Obviously Pico isn't just a wrestler. Still.

Bernman · Post #12 » by **Bernman** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:14 am

REDDzone wrote:Pico will debut. I hope he looks good, seems like a couple of these wrestlers have had a little bit of trouble in bellator lately. Obviously Pico isn't just a wrestler. Still.

Tyrell Fortune hasn't. He looks like he'll make a fortune in his career. Doesn't hurt that he's a hw. Makes his escalation up the ranks that much quicker.

The problem Bellator has with so many of these MMA debutantes who are hyped from one of the individual arts, especially wrestling, is that it's tough to how to get their record looking good enough so they can take that next step to featuring on tv and eventually in title fights. Pico is a smallish guy, far from a hw. He can't be on a Brock type trajectory. Can you really justify it from an optics or development perspective to start throwing him into the mix at 3-0, after a few fights on the prelims? It helped when Bellator used to have the tourney system which could get them a few fights against prospects in a few months. But even with guys like Askren and Konrad, they had a few fights elsewhere before Bellator signed them. Then, look at the end result? They were a couple guys the fans weren't keen to watch. So far the strategy has paid so few dividends. It's been largely a waste of time and money.

They really should go back to moving on guys after a few fights. It's still a significant amount away from when UFC will. They acquired Chandler after a few fights. The guy he's fighting at this event they signed after a couple. Make them show they're translating to MMA first, at least outside of the hw division where the standard is lower. I'm more intrigued by this Rafael Lovato cat they signed from Legacy after starting his career 4-0. He won the Brazilian national championship at black belt, but is already displaying plus striking also.

REDDzone · Post #13 » by **REDDzone** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:04 pm

Bernman wrote:They really should go back to moving on guys after a few fights. It's still a significant amount away from when UFC will. They acquired Chandler after a few fights. The guy he's fighting at this event they signed after a couple. Make them show they're translating to MMA first, at least outside of the hw division where the standard is lower.

I agree with most of your post but this is where you're wrong IMO. UFC has started using other leagues as a farm system. They are actually paying fighters' purses to fight elsewhere but have a ufc contract. First we saw it with Cyborg and now we see it with Dern. Presumably to prevent bellator from picking them up. UFC has a farm relationship with multiple promotions these days. Not sure if it came from adding them all to fightpass or what. Bellator, as far as I know, uses itself as its own farm system. Probably because most of bellator's prelim fights are filled with prospects and locals which I'm fine with.

They just have to bring guys along at the right pace and not yield to fan and media pressure.

REDDzone · Post #14 » by **REDDzone** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:06 pm

Also RE Lovato: He is probably still the best American blackbelt ever at this point and only the second American after BJ to have won mundials. Competition was much more stiff when Lovato did it too. I think problem with him is he's already mid 30s in age IIRC and also he bulked up crazy in the last year or two. Who knows what the source of that is.

Bernman · Post #15 » by **Bernman** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 6:05 pm

REDDzone wrote:I agree with most of your post but this is where you're wrong IMO. UFC has started using other leagues as a farm system. They are actually paying fighters' purses to fight elsewhere but have a ufc contract. First we saw it with Cyborg and now we see it with Dern. Presumably to prevent bellator from picking them up. UFC has a farm relationship with multiple promotions these days. Not sure if it came from adding them all to fightpass or what. Bellator, as far as I know, uses itself as its own farm system. Probably because most of bellator's prelim fights are filled with prospects and locals which I'm fine with.

They just have to bring guys along at the right pace and not yield to fan and media pressure.

But you referenced a couple ladies, who it's typical have limited # of fights before they join ufc, and they show Invicta on their Fight Pass Network to get an immediate r.o.i. from them.

The UFC had somewhat of a relationship with RFA, but they merged with Legacy, and as aforementioned Bellator signed Lovato at 4-0 out of there. Higo just signed with Bellator out of there and had an 8-fight win streak to go along with 17-2 record. I think that's branding and consolidation that they are the minor league of MMA for the big leagues to be checking in on frequently, they can both offer, and fighters can go wherever they please afterward. Bellator would just need to make a greater investment in these fighters over signing names, act earlier, and often before they even reach that league. Afterward it's still a process that takes a few fights before they are considered ready for the ufc.

Once they sign these MMA debutantes, it's not necessarily fan or media pressure, but what the contract and fighter inherently puts on them. They and the fighters are gonna get antsy. Piccolotti had 4 fights, then signed with Bellator. Bellator can win this way, scouting MMA, not necessarily getting desperate and signing everybody out of wrestling who got an Olympic trial.

REDDzone wrote:Also RE Lovato: He is probably still the best American blackbelt ever at this point and only the second American after BJ to have won mundials. Competition was much more stiff when Lovato did it too. I think problem with him is he's already mid 30s in age IIRC and also he bulked up crazy in the last year or two. Who knows what the source of that is.

He was rated by Pat Militech as the top mw prospect in LFA, over some other impressive guys like Giles, when Bellator signed him. UFC just wasn't ready at 4-0 apparently or Bellator rated him enough to give him a sweeter offer. He's not that old at 33. He's a lot younger than he looks. Maybe he's juicing and that's why he went to Bellator, for the less strict testing. That's an advantage for Bellator with some fighters now I guess.

REDDzone · Post #16 » by **REDDzone** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:33 pm

We'll see how it plays out moving forward, but Ariel has brought up the Dern thing multiple times. Saying how the ufc is sort of setting up their own farm system (not sure if he has heard that from ufc brass or if he is just going by the two examples), whereas bellator doesn't have that type of relationship to do that.

Jasen777 · Post #17 » by **Jasen777** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:10 pm

I've thought the UFC needed a official minor league. So they can sign prospects early and have somewhere to put them, and hopefully thin the main roster and make "UFC caliber" mean something again.

Cammo101 · Post #18 » by **Cammo101** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:52 pm

REDDzone wrote:
Bernman wrote:They really should go back to moving on guys after a few fights. It's still a significant amount away from when UFC will. They acquired Chandler after a few fights. The guy he's fighting at this event they signed after a couple. Make them show they're translating to MMA first, at least outside of the hw division where the standard is lower.

I agree with most of your post but this is where you're wrong IMO. UFC has started using other leagues as a farm system. They are actually paying fighters' purses to fight elsewhere but have a ufc contract. First we saw it with Cyborg and now we see it with Dern. Presumably to prevent bellator from picking them up. UFC has a farm relationship with multiple promotions these days. Not sure if it came from adding them all to fightpass or what. Bellator, as far as I know, uses itself as its own farm system. Probably because most of bellator's prelim fights are filled with prospects and locals which I'm fine with.

They just have to bring guys along at the right pace and not yield to fan and media pressure.

They did this with Tom Duquesnoy as well, who will soon be a welcome addition to the UFC's BW division.

Cammo101 · Post #19 » by **Cammo101** » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:54 pm

Jasen777 wrote:I've thought the UFC needed a official minor league. So they can sign prospects early and have somewhere to put them, and hopefully thin the main roster and make "UFC caliber" mean something again.

They should just buy the controlling stake in one of these regional shows they put on Fight Pass and turn it into a true minor league feeder system. It wouldn't cost much and would be really helpful. If you want to get real crazy you could have a few of them in different countries. Brazil, England, Australia, Japan...

Bernman · Post #20 » by **Bernman** » Sat Apr 1, 2017 7:10 pm

They added Mo-Bader and Gallagher-Machida as prelims.

Bader and Mo could make each other semi-entertaining. I doubt one will have much success getting the other to the ground. Bader shouldn't have a problem getting in against Mo who exclusively boxes and throws wide punches. Mo also has a suspect chin.

Gallagher-Machida sounds interesting separately or together. Both move pretty beautifully, are technical, well-rounded enough, and go for finishes. That will be a test for both to see if they can move up the ladder.

Bellator indeed looks like they are sparing few expenses and resources on this card. Still no fifth main card fight, but two prelims coming off already. Wonder if they are pursing Duffy. Like a Duffy-Patricky match would be a nice way to round out the card. They still have Bendo. Maybe him vs. Patricky, or they try that Thomson match anyway. They might try to build a Piccolotti as a name this way through a former UFC one. Either way I think at least one more will be on the card/in the fight to sell it. Lightweight makes sense especially in case that Chandler-Primus match falls through. Outside chance they do another full original for pure excitement like Shlemenko-Kato. Would make more sense as a prelim, though.