WWE SmackDown Discussion II

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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#241 » by Stanford » Thu May 10, 2018 12:02 am

improper wrote:It's that NXT actually books faces like faces and heels like heels. NXT's faces aren't arrogant, entitled d-bags like the faces Vince books tend to be. They're just good, likable characters.


Yes. And storylines are almost always more interesting and rooted in heel-face dynamics than the main roster. Ciampa gets the **** booed out of him because he's clearly a heel and the audience is invested in the story they're telling. The problem with the main roster is lack of character development and bad storylines. Fix those and you'll have people cheering the good guys again.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#242 » by LLJ » Thu May 10, 2018 12:03 am

improper wrote:
LLJ wrote:NXT crowds are totally different from main roster crowds though. They know the game, they are the definition of "smarks". That said, they have still cheered heels over faces at times. But they "get it". And they do the right reactions when they approve of the product.


It has nothing to do with the NXT crowd being smarks. If anything, having a crowd full of smarks should make it harder to get proper reactions for guys like Ciampa.

It's that NXT actually books faces like faces and heels like heels. NXT's faces aren't arrogant, entitled d-bags like the faces Vince books tend to be. They're just good, likable characters.


There are 2 types of smarks: the ones who appreciate good characters and good wrestling and know how to play the game...and then the ones who are in it to get themselves over with memes and chants . Typically, NXT crowds DO tend to have more of the former than the main roster--indie darlings and Japanese wrestlers tend to get over easier with NXT crowds because they are more workrate oriented. The main roster gets tons of the latter--that's why you get memes and chants all the time on the main roster even during good matches and segments.

I guarantee you a Johnny Garnano will have a much tougher time once he gets called up. He can get over still, but it will be a tougher challenge even if he remained the same on call up (and he probably won't since Vince would find a way to **** him up)
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#243 » by Ruzious » Thu May 10, 2018 3:54 pm

LLJ wrote:
improper wrote:
LLJ wrote:NXT crowds are totally different from main roster crowds though. They know the game, they are the definition of "smarks". That said, they have still cheered heels over faces at times. But they "get it". And they do the right reactions when they approve of the product.


It has nothing to do with the NXT crowd being smarks. If anything, having a crowd full of smarks should make it harder to get proper reactions for guys like Ciampa.

It's that NXT actually books faces like faces and heels like heels. NXT's faces aren't arrogant, entitled d-bags like the faces Vince books tend to be. They're just good, likable characters.


There are 2 types of smarks: the ones who appreciate good characters and good wrestling and know how to play the game...and then the ones who are in it to get themselves over with memes and chants . Typically, NXT crowds DO tend to have more of the former than the main roster--indie darlings and Japanese wrestlers tend to get over easier with NXT crowds because they are more workrate oriented. The main roster gets tons of the latter--that's why you get memes and chants all the time on the main roster even during good matches and segments.

I guarantee you a Johnny Garnano will have a much tougher time once he gets called up. He can get over still, but it will be a tougher challenge even if he remained the same on call up (and he probably won't since Vince would find a way to **** him up)

And if Reigns had an Indy background, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much complaining about the WWE forcing him on us - even if he'd be exactly the same rassler.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#244 » by LLJ » Thu May 10, 2018 4:54 pm

Ruzious wrote:And if Reigns had an Indy background, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much complaining about the WWE forcing him on us - even if he'd be exactly the same rassler.


Maybe, maybe not. Reigns was pretty popular when he was with the SHIELD. He has been horribly booked ever since he was chosen as "The Man" though. Having him repeatedly go over Bryan who was the most popular wrestler at the time was a really bad start to his initial push. From there on it's been a disaster, with multiple attempts to try to make people like Reigns, each one more obvious than the last.

The WWE thinks that having wrestlers go over popular ones will transfer popularity onto them. No, all it does is generate heat. Which is OKAY if he's a heel, but having a face character going over a BELOVED face character for "credibility" is something the WWE always does on occasion, and it always backfires. This was the worst case of them all though.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#245 » by improper » Thu May 10, 2018 6:54 pm

Ruzious wrote:And if Reigns had an Indy background, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much complaining about the WWE forcing him on us - even if he'd be exactly the same rassler.


I don't think that's true at all. Braun Strowman doesn't have an indie background, but he's arguably the most over wrestler on the entire roster right now. Elias is over as all hell right now too without an indie background.

Ultimately, the fans don't care about where a guy comes from. They might initially, as in a new guy from a major indie promotion may get a huge pop, but at the end of the day guys have to stand on the back of their work in WWE. The problem is that Roman just can't do that. He's not a good wrestler. His matches are totally lacking in psychology and they're all the damn same. He hasn't had a good singles match in over six months, largely because he can only do (or at least chooses to do) only four moves, most of them boring and overused. Further, he's incapable of getting over out of the ring either because he's totally lacking in charisma. He's just not a likable guy. Even in out of character interviews, he comes off as arrogant and condescending.

Contrast Roman with Braun. Braun is a guy who is, at this point, a bit better and more interesting in the ring, but he's also great out of the ring. He connects with the crowd in a way Roman has never really been able to do. He's funny and can make people laugh with ease, which is usually an indicator of charisma. He can transition from remorseless killer to playing a cello to tag-teaming with a random kid from the audience, and it all works because he's just a likable guy. If they strapped the rocket on Strowman right now, the crowd would be totally on board. Hell, they've been clamoring for it for months now.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#246 » by iMoreland » Thu May 10, 2018 7:29 pm

But guys like Braun, Roman, and Elias have a stigma connected to them saying that they can't wrestle or aren't the best wrestler. If they were on the indies they wouldn't. Same would be said if it was the opposite, if Ambrose or Rollins were homegrown talent they'd have that stigma too.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#247 » by Ruzious » Thu May 10, 2018 7:46 pm

LLJ wrote:
Ruzious wrote:And if Reigns had an Indy background, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much complaining about the WWE forcing him on us - even if he'd be exactly the same rassler.


Maybe, maybe not. Reigns was pretty popular when he was with the SHIELD. He has been horribly booked ever since he was chosen as "The Man" though. Having him repeatedly go over Bryan who was the most popular wrestler at the time was a really bad start to his initial push. From there on it's been a disaster, with multiple attempts to try to make people like Reigns, each one more obvious than the last.

The WWE thinks that having wrestlers go over popular ones will transfer popularity onto them. No, all it does is generate heat. Which is OKAY if he's a heel, but having a face character going over a BELOVED face character for "credibility" is something the WWE always does on occasion, and it always backfires. This was the worst case of them all though.

Wait, wasn't it Batista winning over Bryan that got the fans all riled up? Maybe I'm forgetting all the times I was supposed to be offended by what the WWE did to poor Daniel.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#248 » by improper » Thu May 10, 2018 7:53 pm

iMoreland wrote:But guys like Braun, Roman, and Elias have a stigma connected to them saying that they can't wrestle or aren't the best wrestler. If they were on the indies they wouldn't. Same would be said if it was the opposite, if Ambrose or Rollins were homegrown talent they'd have that stigma too.


But it's not an inaccurate statement to say that Bruan, Roman, and Elias aren't the best wrestlers. They're not. None of them is probably even in the top twenty of workers in the WWE. I don't think it's a stigma. I think it's an acknowledgement of fact.

Elias and Strowman have largely gotten over due to great character work and antics outside of the ring. Roman, meanwhile, hasn't been able to get over for four years now and has delivered absolutely terrible performances in three straight Wrestlemania main events, and hasn't had a good singles match in over six months.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#249 » by Stanford » Thu May 10, 2018 7:55 pm

Ruzious wrote:Wait, wasn't it Batista winning over Bryan that got the fans all riled up? Maybe I'm forgetting all the times I was supposed to be offended by what the WWE did to poor Daniel.


That's the correct time period, yes. The Reigns stuff started a year later. I think technically the Shamus match started everything, but it hit a peak with Batista's return.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#250 » by Ruzious » Thu May 10, 2018 7:56 pm

improper wrote:
Ruzious wrote:And if Reigns had an Indy background, there wouldn't be anywhere near as much complaining about the WWE forcing him on us - even if he'd be exactly the same rassler.


I don't think that's true at all. Braun Strowman doesn't have an indie background, but he's arguably the most over wrestler on the entire roster right now. Elias is over as all hell right now too without an indie background.

But the WWE waited to push Strohman - which seemed to be the whole point of why the smarks didn't give Reigns a break - they didn't wait to push Reigns. If they had made Strowman the top guy from the beginning, he might be hated just like Reigns. It's not like Strohman showed any personality when he first started. And they still really haven't pushed Elias too hard - he looked pretty bad the other night losing to Bobby Roode. He's a musical break from the real matches. The announcers were even talking about his lack of wrestling skills. I doubt he'll ever be used as more than a mid-carder.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#251 » by improper » Thu May 10, 2018 8:02 pm

Ruzious wrote:But the WWE waited to push Strohman - which seemed to be the whole point of why the smarks didn't give Reigns a break - they didn't wait to push Reigns. If they had made Strowman the top guy from the beginning, he might be hated just like Reigns. It's not like Strohman showed any personality when he first started. And they still really haven't pushed Elias too hard - he looked pretty bad the other night losing to Bobby Roode. He's a musical break from the real matches. The announcers were even talking about his lack of wrestling skills. I doubt he'll ever be used as more than a mid-carder.


I don't even think WWE waited as long as they waited with Roman in the Shield to push Strowman. He was pretty much made a big deal from the moment he was drafted to Raw, and he was booked like an absolute monster from that point forward. The thing is, he rose to the occasion. They threw him in the deep end and he learned to swim. He knocked various segments out of the park, came up with some memorable quotes (I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU YET), and gradually improved in the ring. Braun connected with the crowd and they got behind him.

Can we say any of that applies to Roman? Roman hasn't risen to the occasion in over a year now. His matches are predictable and mostly boring as all hell, especially when he's paired with Brock since they do a combined six moves. He hasn't managed to do anything memorable outside of the ring, either. The only memorable Roman Reigns moments are when he gets his ass kicked by guys like Braun, Brock, and Triple H, or gets screwed by Rollins. He hasn't managed to connect with fans, his matches mostly suck, and he can't cut a promo to save his life.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#252 » by Ruzious » Thu May 10, 2018 8:07 pm

improper wrote:
iMoreland wrote:But guys like Braun, Roman, and Elias have a stigma connected to them saying that they can't wrestle or aren't the best wrestler. If they were on the indies they wouldn't. Same would be said if it was the opposite, if Ambrose or Rollins were homegrown talent they'd have that stigma too.


But it's not an inaccurate statement to say that Bruan, Roman, and Elias aren't the best wrestlers. They're not. None of them is probably even in the top twenty of workers in the WWE. I don't think it's a stigma. I think it's an acknowledgement of fact.

Elias and Strowman have largely gotten over due to great character work and antics outside of the ring. Roman, meanwhile, hasn't been able to get over for four years now and has delivered absolutely terrible performances in three straight Wrestlemania main events, and hasn't had a good singles match in over six months.

I think that's a huge under-selling of Strowman's ability. At least before the smarks came along, believability was key to being a great performer, and Strowman is the most believable performer in the WWE - as far as being dominant. And his believablity starts with his size and athleticism. It's pretty easy to come up with character work and antics outside the ring when you have a physical freak like Strowman.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#253 » by Dominater » Thu May 10, 2018 11:12 pm

I'm really starting to like this guys character. Hes exceeded my expectations so far. It's a shame this wasn't on TV:

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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#254 » by bestnamezRtaken » Fri May 11, 2018 12:13 pm

Dominater wrote:I'm really starting to like this guys character. Hes exceeded my expectations so far. It's a shame this wasn't on TV:

Does Rusev owe Big Cass a thank you?: WWE.com Exclusive, May 8, 2018

http://wwe.com/videos/does-rusev-owe-big-cass-a-thank-you-wwe-com-exclusive-may-8-2018


Wow, not bad at all from Big Cass. He's really improved his promo work quite a bit. Good stuff there, he's making a great heel.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#255 » by LLJ » Fri May 11, 2018 3:24 pm

Ruzious wrote:I think that's a huge under-selling of Strowman's ability. At least before the smarks came along, believability was key to being a great performer, and Strowman is the most believable performer in the WWE - as far as being dominant. And his believablity starts with his size and athleticism. It's pretty easy to come up with character work and antics outside the ring when you have a physical freak like Strowman.


Well, they also aren't so much "pushing" Strowman as portraying him really strong in a lot of non-title feuds. They've mostly kept him away from title pushes and just keeping him busy with various other angles. So it doesn't seem like they are rushing him or jamming him down our throats.

Strowman probably also isn't really ready for a title run, objectively. He's been protected from doing too many straight matches because he's still pretty green. He's best in gimmick matches where he smashes stuff or in matches booked to suit his character, rather than his in-ring skills. If he started being put in straight title main events all the time, he'd be exposed after a while. I don't think fans would turn on him like with Roman, but people would definitely criticize his match work a lot more than they are currently.

The difference between him and Roman right now is that Strowman is being booked properly to suit his strengths and hide his weaknesses. Roman has been booked in a way that exposes his weaknesses moreso than his strengths. And his strengths aren't strong enough to compensate for his weaknesses.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#256 » by tugs » Sat May 12, 2018 10:52 am

Call me crazy but I'd rather have Rusev win MITB instead of Miz. Miz doesn't need it. I'd like Bryan to get involved in any capacity so that he can start the storyline with Miz.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#257 » by bestnamezRtaken » Wed May 16, 2018 2:04 am

I thought the main event on SmackDown not Live was pretty damn good. I had no issues with the outcome either or how they executed it. I thought the fake low blow that Shinsuke sold was hilarious and perfect.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#258 » by LLJ » Wed May 16, 2018 3:55 pm

bestnamezRtaken wrote:I thought the main event on SmackDown not Live was pretty damn good. I had no issues with the outcome either or how they executed it. I thought the fake low blow that Shinsuke sold was hilarious and perfect.


It was probably their best match together in the WWE...and it was for free. :lol:

Anyway, looks like the 2 Japanese stars get another crack at the titles. They both need to win here badly. You can't keep pushing them and keep yanking the carrot away before they start losing too much heat.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#259 » by Scott Hall » Wed May 16, 2018 8:23 pm

Mandy Rose reminds me of an old school Penthouse Pet from the late 80's/early 90's her entrance is also
pretty captivating. On the mic and in the ring she already seems like a poised veteran at times which
surprises me with her only being in the business a few years. She could be a blue chipper and a world
champion in a few years.

I also hate Almas beating on a jobber... Don't get me wrong I'll always have a special place for jobber matches
in my heart I used to love main roster guys destroying jobbers on Saturday Morning Superstars back in the day
but there's so many main roster jobbers that can't get TV time like Ty Dillenger, R-Truth etc I'd rather see
Almas go through them instead of an old fashioned jobber.

After the "Dream Match" that was a complete dud at WrestleMania... Styles vs. Nakurmara matches keep on
getting better and better each time as they develop more chemistry. They indeed could have a classic
match soon if given enough time but not sure it will happen at Money In The Bank if it's a heavy gimmick
match which it looks like it's going in that direction.
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Re: WWE SmackDown Discussion II 

Post#260 » by Dominater » Thu May 17, 2018 11:06 pm

Scott Hall wrote:Mandy Rose reminds me of an old school Penthouse Pet from the late 80's/early 90's her entrance is also
pretty captivating. On the mic and in the ring she already seems like a poised veteran at times which
surprises me with her only being in the business a few years. She could be a blue chipper and a world
champion in a few years.

I also hate Almas beating on a jobber... Don't get me wrong I'll always have a special place for jobber matches
in my heart I used to love main roster guys destroying jobbers on Saturday Morning Superstars back in the day
but there's so many main roster jobbers that can't get TV time like Ty Dillenger, R-Truth etc I'd rather see
Almas go through them instead of an old fashioned jobber.

After the "Dream Match" that was a complete dud at WrestleMania... Styles vs. Nakurmara matches keep on
getting better and better each time as they develop more chemistry. They indeed could have a classic
match soon if given enough time but not sure it will happen at Money In The Bank if it's a heavy gimmick
match which it looks like it's going in that direction.


i think we actually could use some more jobber matches to be honest. It would keep things a little more fresh. Like why not have like Seth Rollins beat a jobber once in a while? That way you can feature him without using anything up. We need that especially now where things get stale way too fast
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