WWE Raw Discussion II

[Scott Hall]

in the WWF he was rather poor though in ring in general which i think was the point.

Also Ultimate Warrior was no in ring technician and was a massive star.

Poor based on what?

It's not like the 80's was filled with all these great workers. You had guys like Bret, Mr. Perfect, The Rougeaus,
Savage, Steamboat, the Rockers but if you go back and watch that era the movesets by everybody were really basic.

And like my point about him predominantly wrestling big monsters all the time you can't pull off the majority of your
moves against 400 and 500 lbs guys. Even though Hogan was big himself the fact he could body slam Andre was like
this huge giant impressive spot.

Hogan probably used the Leg Drop as a finisher because he could barely lift those big bastards up in the air lol

Imagine guys like AJ Styles or Daniel Bryan or Fin Balor wrestling the Big Show, Braun, Kane, Great Khali, Mark Henry etc
all the time you can't pull off a lot of your move set so you have to adjust your style and adapt.

Guys like Hogan, Austin, Rock and now Cena later on in his career learned to have great matches without being high
flyers doing a bunch of high spots or being great technicians and a lot of their matches are more memorable than
some of the good workers we all like.

You watch a lot of 80's and early 90's stuff now and the matches don't hold up considering the type of stuff we see
now a days but at its time they were great matches that made that era so popular.

As for the Ultimate Warrior he only had 2 good matches in his entire career but it goes to show you how important
"Look" is and how a theme song can really add to your character. Ultimate Warrior is a legend and HOFer and Icon
based off look and better then these plain looking guys on 205 Live or NXT UK or ROH who have zero personality
look like they should be working an office job and just out there and do some fancy moves.

poor based off his own new japan run actually.

That's kind of my point though, you can get around being a poor worker if you work to their strengths. Much like they should have with Wyatt, sure, an average worker at best, but with his presence and charisma (as well as one of the best gimmicks the wwe have created in years) they should have been able to make him a monster heel.

How can you be a poor or average worker and have all sorts of legendary matches and be considered a GOAT?

Cody Rhodes said Hogan vs. The Rock is the greatest match of all time and to not even debate him on it. Pritchard
said he shows Hogan vs. Rock to all his students as a 101 on ring psychology.

Like how the hell is Bray Wyatt even being mentioned in the same sentence as Hulk freaking Hogan lol?

Bray is a tremendous promo and he's the character that Waylon Mercy never got the chance to be. He even
got to be a transition champion with a shallow roster.

Has Bray Wyatt ever had one "great" match? He's constantly huffing and puffing in the ring and none of his WM matches
have been anything people will go back and actively watch back as time goes on.

These Hillbilly looking type guys never have a long shelf life...

The roster is so much more talented then it was 3-5 years ago and there's a bunch of guys in NXT that are really good
that are on the way up in the next year or two plus WWE is active on the Free Agent market trying to block AEW
that unless Wyatt gets himself in phenomenal shape he's gonna have to make his bread in the Tag Division.

[Stanford]

Hogan was bad in the ring more than he was decent, especially in the 90s. You can talk about WM18 all you want, but no one has more terrible main event matches than Hogan. He's not a bad wrestler, but he's no better than average. You can't have as many train wreck matches as he did and be considered a GOAT.

[Scott Hall]

The people that think Hogan was bad in the ring either a) Didn't watch him in Japan b) Judge him wrestling ton's of
heavyweights c) Judge him based off his WCW run where he changed his style as a chicken sh*t heel and wrestled
other fellow old wrestlers all the time like Flair, Piper and Savage D) Don't know ring psychology and the art of selling
E) Despise the Leg Drop finisher F) Hate old school 70's style wrestling G) All of the above

The New generation of fans have been trained to think Meltzers rating system is the be all and end all....

Old ass Hogans psychology dragged McMahon to a highly entertaining match at WM 19...

Did Hogan have bad matches? Yes but who doesn't. AJ Styles couldn't have one great match in a combined 7 matches
with KO and Shinske the last 2 years but I'm not gonna hold that against him.

Hogan in the ring is no different than the Rock and Cena and older Austin and they learned to deliver without being
spot monkeys or master technicians.

[Spens1]

no one is denying his work in Japan, he was very good (especially for his size) in New Japan, its just that in WWE he was pretty bad. in the 90's he got very bad in the ring, its just that he was so damn good outside of it and booking allowed for the weaknesses to be hidden (played up his psychology).

[Dominator83]

The people that think Hogan was bad in the ring either a) Didn't watch him in Japan b) Judge him wrestling ton's of
heavyweights c) Judge him based off his WCW run where he changed his style as a chicken sh*t heel and wrestled
other fellow old wrestlers all the time like Flair, Piper and Savage D) Don't know ring psychology and the art of selling
E) Despise the Leg Drop finisher F) Hate old school 70's style wrestling G) All of the above

The New generation of fans have been trained to think Meltzers rating system is the be all and end all....

Old ass Hogans psychology dragged McMahon to a highly entertaining match at WM 19...

Did Hogan have bad matches? Yes but who doesn't. AJ Styles couldn't have one great match in a combined 7 matches
with KO and Shinske the last 2 years but I'm not gonna hold that against him.

Hogan in the ring is no different than the Rock and Cena and older Austin and they learned to deliver without being
spot monkeys or master technicians.

I remember back in 2008 summerslam my favorite match was between 2 guys that " can't wrestle". Cena vs Batista. I thought the way they delivered was great and had me constantly guessing who was gonna win. I'll take that match over any of those 7 AJ matches any day

[Scott Hall]

HHH said it best once that debating/arguing about wrestling is like debating who the best musicians are.
Like some people can say this band or singer is amazing and then some people can say that the band or singer
sucks and is overrated.

Like I'm sure if we started a topic about Drake or somebody on the general board some people will say he's maybe
one of the best ever and some will say he's one of the worst ever.

I've had debates on other forums in the last few weeks and I've had people tell me Charlotte sucks, Daniel Bryan
is the most overrated ever, CM Punk wasn't a big star, Bret Hart wasn't that good just some stuff that blows my mind.
But art and entertainment is subjective.

As for Hogan I've said in the past that as crazy as it sounds that he could be a candidate for the most underrated wrestler
ever because a lot of people are convinced that he was bad. He's probably the master of little things that go unnoticed.

I think the worst of Hogan was in WCW though he was over 40 when he got there he was off the roids he had Bischoff
around his finger and like a lot of guys in WCW mailed it in and could get away with half assing it at times.

When he became Hollywood Hogan his whole psychology changed. He played the dirty chicken $hit heel and did antics
straight out of the 60's and 70's to get cheap heat and didn't do a lot of maneuvers. In the mid to late 90's it was outdated
and hard to watch especially since guys like Savage, Flair, Piper, Luger etc were past their prime as well and he faced
them most of the time. He's probably got one of the best batting averages in delivering in big matches and even if
the match wasn't that good it was usually adequate or memorable in some way.

[tugs]

Honestly, I'd take storytelling over athletic spots.

[Scott Hall]

The people that think Hogan was bad in the ring either a) Didn't watch him in Japan b) Judge him wrestling ton's of
heavyweights c) Judge him based off his WCW run where he changed his style as a chicken sh*t heel and wrestled
other fellow old wrestlers all the time like Flair, Piper and Savage D) Don't know ring psychology and the art of selling
E) Despise the Leg Drop finisher F) Hate old school 70's style wrestling G) All of the above

The New generation of fans have been trained to think Meltzers rating system is the be all and end all....

Old ass Hogans psychology dragged McMahon to a highly entertaining match at WM 19...

Did Hogan have bad matches? Yes but who doesn't. AJ Styles couldn't have one great match in a combined 7 matches
with KO and Shinske the last 2 years but I'm not gonna hold that against him.

Hogan in the ring is no different than the Rock and Cena and older Austin and they learned to deliver without being
spot monkeys or master technicians.

I remember back in 2008 summerslam my favorite match was between 2 guys that " can't wrestle". Cena vs Batista. I thought the way they delivered was great and had me constantly guessing who was gonna win. I'll take that match over any of those 7 AJ matches any day

Oh man I was the biggest Cena hater ever I remember at ECW ONS when the fans crapped all over him and chanted
you can't wrestle I was all for it. I thought he was a horrible athlete outside of being strong and every move he
executed was sloppy.

Then I remember he had a great match with Umaga and it surprised me then he had some great matches with
Edge and like you said Batista and does anyone remember those KILLER matches he had with Kevin Owens
when KO first joined the main roster? His matches with AJ Styles might be AJ Styles best matches in WWE so far.
His matches with the Rock delivered at WM, he might have Shinskes best match in WWE as well. "The Big Match John"
moniker that JBL gave him might actually be true to some extent.

Look at the Rock he might do the most sloppiest Sharpshooter of all time and is the Peoples Elbow any worse than
the Leg Drop and is the Rock Bottom any worse than the Attitude Adjustment?

The Rock is another guy who is a master seller, with impeccable timing, Playing to the crowd and telling a story.

[improper]

Cena definitely got a lot better in the ring over time. He's added a bunch of moves and is just generally more dynamic in there as a result. It certainly doesn't hurt that, being John Cena, he pretty much always gets a ton of time to put on a great match and likely isn't restricted in what he can do like guys in the mid and lower card clearly are.

[Dominator83]

HHH said it best once that debating/arguing about wrestling is like debating who the best musicians are.
Like some people can say this band or singer is amazing and then some people can say that the band or singer
sucks and is overrated.

Like I'm sure if we started a topic about Drake or somebody on the general board some people will say he's maybe
one of the best ever and some will say he's one of the worst ever.

I've had debates on other forums in the last few weeks and I've had people tell me Charlotte sucks, Daniel Bryan
is the most overrated ever, CM Punk wasn't a big star, Bret Hart wasn't that good just some stuff that blows my mind.
But art and entertainment is subjective.

As for Hogan I've said in the past that as crazy as it sounds that he could be a candidate for the most underrated wrestler
ever because a lot of people are convinced that he was bad. He's probably the master of little things that go unnoticed.

I think the worst of Hogan was in WCW though he was over 40 when he got there he was off the roids he had Bischoff
around his finger and like a lot of guys in WCW mailed it in and could get away with half assing it at times.

When he became Hollywood Hogan his whole psychology changed. He played the dirty chicken $hit heel and did antics
straight out of the 60's and 70's to get cheap heat and didn't do a lot of maneuvers. In the mid to late 90's it was outdated
and hard to watch especially since guys like Savage, Flair, Piper, Luger etc were past their prime as well and he faced
them most of the time. He's probably got one of the best batting averages in delivering in big matches and even if
the match wasn't that good it was usually adequate or memorable in some way.

Dude, I actually have some wrestling buddies that tried saying Ric Flair was better than Bret the Hitman Hart. To me that's laughable. I mean yes, flair is way better when you look at the whole package. Character, charisma, mic skills, marketability, etc. But when we're talking about IN THE RING as a WRESTLER, Hart was a hell of a lot better

[Stanford]

If you're going to discuss the all time greatest wrestlers, you have to first agree on consistent criteria. If you can't agree on that, the conversation will only end up going in circles. Two people could be arguing for two different wrestlers based on how they apply weight to the various aspects of wrestling, but not disagree on a single thing about those wrestlers. That's why the conversation about what makes a wrestler good will always be more fruitful and interesting than arguing for individual wrestlers.

Dude, I actually have some wrestling buddies that tried saying Ric Flair was better than Bret the Hitman Hart. To me that's laughable. I mean yes, flair is way better when you look at the whole package. Character, charisma, mic skills, marketability, etc. But when we're talking about IN THE RING as a WRESTLER, Hart was a hell of a lot better

Strikes me as a coin toss. I wouldn't want to argue either way.