WWE Raw Discussion III

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Re: WWE Raw Discussion III 

Post#1461 » by improper » Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:36 am

Ruzious wrote:I still think the WWE should spend the money and get a working agreement with whatever music industry folks they need to allow them to use well known songs. Theme music made some rasslers in ECW - like Sandman, Tommy Dreamer, The Public Enemy and others. It really should be a win/win situation.


100% this. Not every single wrestler needs to have licensed music for their intros, and you should definitely try to work with musicians to design themes that you own for some of your guys to save money, but themes needs to be special, especially for your top guys.

I think WWE really needs to stop wasting all their money paying wrestlers they're not using solely so they can't sign elsewhere and invest more of it back into the things that make wrestling special like good intro music and pyro (which I know they're using a bit, but it should be more).
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Re: WWE Raw Discussion III 

Post#1462 » by zappafrank » Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:57 am

Amare_1_Knicks wrote:Retribution is like a better version of Dark Order — what Dark Order should’ve been. Even though most of them look undersized, they don’t look goofy, and they don’t look like amateurs that can’t throw believable punches/offense. Their hits look good, the camera shaking when they’re making their attack looks good and their attire makes them look like thugs. The only downfall to Retribution is that there’s no way there’s going to be a rewarding payoff when it’s revealed who they are/who the leader is. I have no faith in WWE when it comes to that.

I’m loving the Hurt Business. They all look great, are good workers, the suits are working for them and MVP is a hell of a mouth piece.


my guess is this Retribution group turns out to be all the recently fired/let go performers one of whom looked like Heith Slater this week. almost lost his mask one time.
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Re: WWE Raw Discussion III 

Post#1463 » by Dominater » Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:26 am

Amare_1_Knicks wrote:Retribution is like a better version of Dark Order — what Dark Order should’ve been. Even though most of them look undersized, they don’t look goofy, and they don’t look like amateurs that can’t throw believable punches/offense. Their hits look good, the camera shaking when they’re making their attack looks good and their attire makes them look like thugs. The only downfall to Retribution is that there’s no way there’s going to be a rewarding payoff when it’s revealed who they are/who the leader is. I have no faith in WWE when it comes to that.

I’m loving the Hurt Business. They all look great, are good workers, the suits are working for them and MVP is a hell of a mouth piece.

Agree on everything. WWE is the masters of the million dollar moves with the 10 cent finishes. Going all the way back to the invasion angle.

Before that it was Bischoff. Holds out using Sting in a match for a year and a half to make the showdown with Hogan great. The marketing and the build-up of that match was done great. Then they go on to have a lackluster match, and with the most head scratching BS finish anyone can think of. Probably the worst pay off of all time considering how much time they spend building it.

And yea MVP really is the MVP of the WWE right now. He's a great manager, a great color commentator, and can still put on his gear and work the occasional match
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Re: WWE Raw Discussion III 

Post#1464 » by jakecronus8 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:33 am

The rumor about Hogan/Sting botch was that Hogan paid the ref to do a standard count and not a quick count like he was supposed to. Sounds funny and absurd but it’s C*nt Hogan so I believe it
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Re: WWE Raw Discussion III 

Post#1465 » by Scott Hall » Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:00 am

jakecronus8 wrote:The rumor about Hogan/Sting botch was that Hogan paid the ref to do a standard count and not a quick count like he was supposed to. Sounds funny and absurd but it’s C*nt Hogan so I believe it


That's gotta be one of the craziest things I've ever read. So Hogan paid off Bret Hart??? And he didn't lose
by being pinned he lost by submission clean to the Scorpion Death Lock after tapping out and Bret Hart calling for the
bell. As for the stuff with Nick Patrick I was always under the impression that for storyline reasons the nWo had
been screwing over WCW guys for over a year and now it was WCWs turn to screw Hogan/nWo over and Bret was
supposed to be about "justice" because he had just been screwed by Vince in WWE and wouldn't let it happen
in WCW. Thunder was debuting a week later and Bischoffs mantra is "Controversy creates cash" so they went with
a Dusty finish.

It was a unique situation you have the Montreal Screw Job like 3-4 weeks before this or whatever it was. Most of
WCWs top feuds and matches were already set in motion for Starrcade. It's like Kenny Omega leaving AEW and
joining WWE a month before Wrestlemania with everything already set in stone. You have to figure out how to
incorporate him somehow and make him feel important and like a big deal. They were most likely trying to
capitalize off the Screw Job in Montreal which also had a controversial finish that's what they were going for.
Bret was supposed to be sick of the BS and wanted to make sure it didn't happen anymore with the nWo so
he took justice into his own hands and prevented Penzer from ringing the bell.

Sting reported to that match a mess as he had not been working out or had even been tanning which most white guys
were required to do for TV back then. Sting was going through major problems at home with his family and around this
time is where he "found god" like HBK. Actually there is a youtube video of Sting and HBK from the late 90's talking about
how religion saved them and their careers.

As for the finish the babyface won in the end with the heel tapping/quitting in the middle of the ring and the new
acquisition was involved in the main event of the biggest PPV of the year. Also it set up a rematch at Super Brawl a
couple of months later so you get a little extra juice from all the hard work you spent building up that match.
Throwing in Bret Hart into the storyline at the last minute put a whole new wrinkle into it and kind of prolonged
the storyline instead of giving it that one big payoff. Instead of having one big PPV with a big buyrate now the viewer
has the incentive to wanna watch the rematch at Super Brawl while also turning into the new show Thunder.

It made a lot of sense with what they did under the circumstances it's just the match itself was a major dud and
the use of Bret Hart after was just horrendous. Sting has taken blame but $hit happens he's a great guy that everybody
respects and there was never any animosity towards him about it. After Starrcade they had the seeds planted for
Hogan vs. Bret and also Sting vs. Bret and just completely botched it. Also the rapid rise of Goldberg at this time may
have messed with their long term booking plans but they completely screwed it up. One of my biggest problems with
WCW was the constant never ending finishes that almost always resulted in run-ins ending in a DQ nobody wanted
to lose clean in that company and Bischoff was more interested in being one of the boys then being the boss.

That match/PPV was the highest buyrate in WCW history they just started to fumble the ball and start panicking
with hot shot booking with WWE bringing in Tyson shortly after this and gaining major momentum with the
Attitude Era kicking into high gear.
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Re: WWE Raw Discussion III 

Post#1466 » by Scott Hall » Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:43 am

tugs wrote:
Scott Hall wrote:
Read on Twitter
Whoa hold up thought Seth just disciplined Buddy? What happens now Seth comes in for the title or Buddy goes over so Seth can attend to Becky?

Still hoping Garza and Andrade are still a team, though all momentum has been lost now.

May favorite part of RAW now is The Hurt Business. Stop this NOD part 2 or whatever, they are unique.

Ok probably a more stylish APA


The guy that tweeted that also forgot they split up Otis and Mandy as well which like most things in WWE
these days leads to nothing. Looks like Vince lost interest in Otis in record time after giving him the MITB.
Not sure what's going on with Rollins and Murphy but it looks like Murphy could be branching off to something
with Mysterios daughter.

The Hurt Business is a carbon copy of "The Beat Down Clan" in TNA in 2014 just swap out Kenny King with
Shelton Benjamin and now add in Cedric. If I remember correctly that was the ending of the prime TNA era.
MVP went to Japan shortly after and Dixie sold the company and then Lashley went on a big singles run.

So I'm glad they kind of revived the group/gimmick and are giving it a real chance because in TNA it didn't
get a lot of time to get off the ground and see what it could fully do.
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Re: WWE Raw Discussion III 

Post#1467 » by improper » Thu Sep 17, 2020 6:21 pm

Giving Otis the briefcase was typical WWE. He's just not ready to be a top singles guy and thus it's a total waste of the case.

When's the last time someone had the briefcase and actually benefited from it? Rollins? That was years ago, and the fact that the case was being held by someone who felt like he was on the verge of being a legit main eventer allowed them to salvage what would have been an absolute **** show at 'Mania.
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Re: WWE Raw Discussion III 

Post#1468 » by Dominater » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:47 pm

jakecronus8 wrote:The rumor about Hogan/Sting botch was that Hogan paid the ref to do a standard count and not a quick count like he was supposed to. Sounds funny and absurd but it’s C*nt Hogan so I believe it


I do recall reading something like that too. But still, a match of that magnitude with 1.5 years worth of build up, you don't book a BS finish. Just have Sting win straight up with no shenanigans.
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Re: WWE Raw Discussion III 

Post#1469 » by jakecronus8 » Yesterday 5:01 am

Dominater wrote:
jakecronus8 wrote:The rumor about Hogan/Sting botch was that Hogan paid the ref to do a standard count and not a quick count like he was supposed to. Sounds funny and absurd but it’s C*nt Hogan so I believe it


I do recall reading something like that too. But still, a match of that magnitude with 1.5 years worth of build up, you don't book a BS finish. Just have Sting win straight up with no shenanigans.


Yes. It’s up there with biggest mistakes in the history of the industry.




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Re: WWE Raw Discussion III 

Post#1470 » by Scott Hall » Yesterday 12:49 pm

While it was somewhat disappointing it wasn't even close to being one of the biggest mistakes in the industry.
Ratings didn't go down because of it. What if Sting wins clean does anything really change? He was already made
and a massive star at that point. They planted some seeds with what they came up with while still having the same
result in the storyline.

WCW House Show attendance was way up in 1998 compared to 1997 and the following PPV's after Starrcade 1997...
Souled Out, Super Brawl and Uncensored had the 8th, 5th and 6th biggest PPV buyrates in WCW history.

WCWs highest ratings period was the following 3-4 months after that match.
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Re: WWE Raw Discussion III 

Post#1471 » by Pharaoh » Today 12:02 am

Scott Hall wrote:While it was somewhat disappointing it wasn't even close to being one of the biggest mistakes in the industry.
Ratings didn't go down because of it. What if Sting wins clean does anything really change? He was already made
and a massive star at that point. They planted some seeds with what they came up with while still having the same
result in the storyline.

WCW House Show attendance was way up in 1998 compared to 1997 and the following PPV's after Starrcade 1997...
Souled Out, Super Brawl and Uncensored had the 8th, 5th and 6th biggest PPV buyrates in WCW history.

WCWs highest ratings period was the following 3-4 months after that match.
Yes, things change in a major way if Sting essentially squashes Hogan in 97.

It begins the fracture of the NWO as Hall was next in line for a shot at the time. Think it was going to be the Feb PPV main event.

So the Jan PPV sees Sting beat Hogan in the rematch.

Feb PPV Hall should lose after Hogan's interference backfires.

This puts Hall & Nash against Hogan & someone (Steiner?) as the NWO splits apart.

Sting moves on to matches against Bret Hart, the NWO isn't run into the ground and a whole load of things are different.

But we got Hogan whining cause Sting wasn't in shape or tanned enough and Bischoff has eluded to some other personal issue Sting had at the time.

Anyway, we got what we got. And it wasn't the ending we should have got

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Re: WWE Raw Discussion III 

Post#1472 » by Scott Hall » Today 3:06 am

Pharaoh wrote:
Scott Hall wrote:While it was somewhat disappointing it wasn't even close to being one of the biggest mistakes in the industry.
Ratings didn't go down because of it. What if Sting wins clean does anything really change? He was already made
and a massive star at that point. They planted some seeds with what they came up with while still having the same
result in the storyline.

WCW House Show attendance was way up in 1998 compared to 1997 and the following PPV's after Starrcade 1997...
Souled Out, Super Brawl and Uncensored had the 8th, 5th and 6th biggest PPV buyrates in WCW history.

WCWs highest ratings period was the following 3-4 months after that match.
Yes, things change in a major way if Sting essentially squashes Hogan in 97.

It begins the fracture of the NWO as Hall was next in line for a shot at the time. Think it was going to be the Feb PPV main event.

So the Jan PPV sees Sting beat Hogan in the rematch.

Feb PPV Hall should lose after Hogan's interference backfires.

This puts Hall & Nash against Hogan & someone (Steiner?) as the NWO splits apart.

Sting moves on to matches against Bret Hart, the NWO isn't run into the ground and a whole load of things are different.

But we got Hogan whining cause Sting wasn't in shape or tanned enough and Bischoff has eluded to some other personal issue Sting had at the time.

Anyway, we got what we got. And it wasn't the ending we should have got

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- Sting beat Hogan in the rematch at SuperBrawl which was the February PPV
- The nWo started fracturing 4 months after and the Wolf Pack was one of the most over factions in history
- Hogan never said anything about the match Bischoff did and Sting admitted it

Was I fan of that match? no

Do I get what they were doing from a business and storyline stand point? yes

Was Scott Hall in line for a World Tittle push after? maybe? I honestly can't remember but keep in mind the
meteoric rise of Goldberg during this time period. His debut match was in September 1997 on Nitro and he
got so over they had to put the belt on him by early July 1998 after beating Scott Hall and squashing Hogan
clean. So he most likely affected long term booking plans.

I said that I felt like the real mistake was the aftermath of the seeds they planted during that match going to waste
but after looking it up WCW's highest ratings period was the 3-4 months after that match and 3 of their top 10 PPV
Buyrates were the 3 PPVs that followed Starrcade 1997 so obviously that match had no negative affect at all.

Let's face it there is a lot of Hogan haters out there that think they know everything and act like they were in the
locker room. It's a bunch of smarks with an agenda that read stuff on the internet that take some of this folklore
and run with it to fit their narrative.

I don't know who even started this was it Meltzer? or Bret Hart still complaining about Wrestlemania 9? It's
funny to me that the guy who made Wrestling and is the biggest draw ever (maybe Austin?) gets crapped on
like he's some cancer who held everybody down yet I hear all these guys in their HOF speeches from DDP, Harlem Heat,
Goldberg, Honky Tonk Man etc etc acknowledge him for helping their careers.

You never hear the 90% of the good things this guy did for the industry it's the 10% supposed bad stuff he did that
these Internet Wrestling Geeks constantly bring up and take for gospel to fit their narrative.

Personally I think Nash becoming the head booker was the real problem and WCW panicked with WWF starting
to breathe down their neck as they started doing hot shot booking and would book these awesome main events
on paper that would constantly end in DQ finishes that went nowhere.

To me the real nail in the coffin or the beginning of the end was the Starrcade 1998 main event with Nash vs.
Goldberg and the streak ending with Scott Hall using the taser lol. Then a week later the Finger Point of Doom
which I was kind of meh about but acknowledge that everybody seemed to hate it.

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