WWE Raw Discussion III

[Spens1]

Not sure who treats their tag team scene worse, WWE or New Japan to be honest. Not a fan of Rollin and Murphy picking up the tag team titles on their first night against a specialist team, should have gone straight on AOP to be honest with the idea that you have Murphy as US champ and Rollins as WWE Champ down the line.

Hopefully though we do see more stables, Owens, Joe and Viking Raiders is a good stable as well.

I guess we will see a tag team title match Rollins/Murphy vs Owens/Joe at Fastlane (that´s why they didn´t put the titles on AOP).

ok i guess, i'd still prefer specialist tag teams though winning the tag team titles and if Owens and Joe go after them, great, even AOP vs Viking Raiders would be a fantastic hoss match if they let them do their thing.

[Spens1]

Not sure who treats their tag team scene worse, WWE or New Japan to be honest. Not a fan of Rollin and Murphy picking up the tag team titles on their first night against a specialist team, should have gone straight on AOP to be honest with the idea that you have Murphy as US champ and Rollins as WWE Champ down the line.

Hopefully though we do see more stables, Owens, Joe and Viking Raiders is a good stable as well.

In all seriousness, surprisingly good show and more coherent than Smackdown mostly, Asuka kind of has to win the womens title at this point and its clear that Kairi is on her way out otherwise why would she lose that quickly to Lynch. Also Charlotte has to be a heel (i still say Face Bayley vs Heel Charlotte, and Face Becky vs Heel Sasha are the two combinations you want main eventing the shows).

Rollins is spinning his wheels since dropping the belt. I'm not exactly sure him dropping it at Crown Jewel was the plan before his feud with The Fiend, so now they are trying to cobble something up.

It feels clear to me Asuka is losing to Lynch at RR, unless they do a short hot potato thing to fill the time between now and Wrestlemania. Shayna is likely winning the RR and facing Becky at WM36.

As far as Kairi is concerned, this is her first match back since the concussion and she's always been presented as the weaker of the duo so her losing to Lynch in short time doesn't mean much. Though I wouldn't be surprised if the the rumors of Kairi and Io still keeping in touch with Stardom and Bushiroad has made the WWE gunshy on their pushes (Io really should have won the NXT title by now)

In 8 minutes though, that's really not long. I kind of hope both go back to Stardom though cause their really needs to be more option for women to get paid other than WWE (especially if its a better booked product, which Stardom generally is).

[LLJ]

In 8 minutes though, that's really not long. I kind of hope both go back to Stardom though cause their really needs to be more option for women to get paid other than WWE (especially if its a better booked product, which Stardom generally is).

I really don't think it means much. 8 minutes is the normal time for a woman's match nowadays. They only do longer matches when it's Charlotte v Asuka/Becky/Any of the 4HW. (Charlotte is the only woman who is afforded long TV matches it seems)

Kairi right now is more or less around the same level of Nikki Cross on the main roster, a midcard teammate to someone higher in status than them. It's not them trying to bury her, it's just what it is. She's still very far on the totem pole from Becky Lynch at the moment to be afforded a 20 minute match with her.

[Spens1]

In 8 minutes though, that's really not long. I kind of hope both go back to Stardom though cause their really needs to be more option for women to get paid other than WWE (especially if its a better booked product, which Stardom generally is).

I really don't think it means much. 8 minutes is the normal time for a woman's match nowadays. They only do longer matches when it's Charlotte v Asuka/Becky/Any of the 4HW. (Charlotte is the only woman who is afforded long TV matches it seems)

Kairi right now is more or less around the same level of Nikki Cross on the main roster, a midcard teammate to someone higher in status than them. It's not them trying to bury her, it's just what it is. She's still very far on the totem pole from Becky Lynch at the moment to be afforded a 20 minute match with her.

Someone who is as talented as Kairi (who would have to be amongst the top 5 female wrestlers in the world still) should get a bit more time and it would probably make Becky look better as well.

[LLJ]

Someone who is as talented as Kairi (who would have to be amongst the top 5 female wrestlers in the world still) should get a bit more time and it would probably make Becky look better as well.

I agree she's better than she is pushed (a lot of people in the WWE are) but you knew where Kairi would be at pretty early on after getting on the main roster. She took most of the pins for KW once they were formed, just as Cross takes most of the pins for Bliss-Cross.

Maybe later on Kairi and Cross will start to be in the main event picture once they start phasing down the 4HW. They've still been better pushed than most recent NXT callups though.

Kairi and Io would obviously immediately be main eventers at Stardom again though. And Bushiroad can pay them a decent amount too. Like, Kairi and Io MAY eventually become main event talents on the main roster, but how long would that take, if ever? They already have one much more established WWE Japanese woman they've committed to the most (and she still isn't always booked ideally), and there's a much younger one, with less injury history than Kairi and Io, is likely coming to the WWE soon in the form of Sareee (she's only 23). So it's definitely a consideration there for Io and Kairi to bolt. And WWE may not want to go all-in on people who could bolt, so you have this slow push where they give them small pushes to entice them but won't fully commit because they won't commit either.

[Spens1]

Someone who is as talented as Kairi (who would have to be amongst the top 5 female wrestlers in the world still) should get a bit more time and it would probably make Becky look better as well.

I agree she's better than she is pushed (a lot of people in the WWE are) but you knew where Kairi would be at pretty early on after getting on the main roster. She took most of the pins for KW once they were formed, just as Cross takes most of the pins for Bliss-Cross.

Maybe later on Kairi and Cross will start to be in the main event picture once they start phasing down the 4HW. They've still been better pushed than most recent NXT callups though.

Kairi and Io would obviously immediately be main eventers at Stardom again though. And Bushiroad can pay them a decent amount too. Like, Kairi and Io MAY eventually become main event talents on the main roster, but how long would that take, if ever? They already have one much more established WWE Japanese woman they've committed to the most (and she still isn't always booked ideally), and there's a much younger one, with less injury history than Kairi and Io, is likely coming to the WWE soon in the form of Sareee (she's only 23). So it's definitely a consideration there for Io and Kairi to bolt. And WWE may not want to go all-in on people who could bolt, so you have this slow push where they give them small pushes to entice them but won't fully commit because they won't commit either.

Honestly WWE should just not even bother signing Japanese talent because they go mostly wasted (Nakamura had a good NXT run and a horror of a run on the main roster given what expectations where for him, Asuka has had a horror run as has Kairi).

If they want to sign talent from Japan, it should be the foreign talent.

[LLJ]

Outside of the 4HW and Alexa, Asuka has been pushed the next "best" of those 5 (relatively speaking) and she's probably the most impactful indie/TNA/foreign signing the WWE has made in the last 4-5 years along with AJ Styles. But relative to her highest upside she has still been flattened by booking considerably on the main roster, so she doesn't look as special as she should be. That being said, it seems apparent that Asuka is still the WWE's go-to Japanese girl even now.

Nakamura has basically been not used in any relevant way at all since his AJ feud.

The WWE main roster is a more promo heavy program than NXT and AEW which makes it harder for foreigners to get consistent spots and storylines. To my mind, Tajiri and Asuka have been the two ESL foreigners in the last 30 years who have managed to get around their limitations the best, but it's still limiting either way because of the amount of talking the main roster leans on.

[improper]

They really derailed Asuka by having her tap to Charlotte. It's been all downhill since there. They should have had her go undefeated on the main roster for a year while Ronda did more or less the same and built to a Mania showdown between the two.

[spykelee]

WWE actually has a lot of stables running when you look across the board. Gallus and Imperium on UK. Undisputed Era, This Rollins and AOP and Joe and K.O and the Raiders. Seems like that is their answer to try and spice the product up and also just get more talent on TV regularly. I don't mind it at all.

[LLJ]

They really derailed Asuka by having her tap to Charlotte. It's been all downhill since there. They should have had her go undefeated on the main roster for a year while Ronda did more or less the same and built to a Mania showdown between the two.

Logistically, they wouldn't have been able to maintain an undefeated streak throughout another year with a PPV every single month. You can do it on NXT because NXT had only 4 or so PPVs a year. There aren't enough women on the roster to sustain an undefeated reign on the main roster. Even Ronda's undefeated streak really started to struggle to hold together by February of 2019, and she didn't become a true full timer until August 2018 when she won the belt.

So while I prefer Asuka over Charlotte/Becky as a performer I think they're completely fine with Becky as the one who became the "main" girl who beat Ronda. I can't deny how red hot Becky became late 2018 and we always complain they don't listen to fans but this time they did.

I think Becky's push and the near-exclusive spotlight on her has damaged the women's division though. Charlotte is 11 time champ but she sure doesn't feel like a big deal anymore--she loses way too often and her stat padding reigns are a running joke now. Bayley's SD reign has been an afterthought. Sasha is exactly the same as she has been the last 2 years. Alexa's not a main eventer anymore (that's a good thing imo, but she's definitely fallen off the radar huge). All the other women (Ember, Carmella, IIconics, etc) are just not relevant. The whole women's division really has been poorly booked the past year, and it's not exclusive to anyone. Throw a dart on a board and wherever it hits, that person is being booked badly in some way.

As for WM36, I also feel like Shayna lost steam after the other NXT women began upstaging her (Io, Candice, Rhea, Dakota). The minute the Candice v Io feud became hotter than Shayna's matches, Shayna's shine started to fall off big time. Shayna's a fave in here, but I feel like the last 8 months have really exposed Shayna's limitations as a worker and character. She's a great heel, but she's a one-note heel. And once she didn't have a sympathetic babyface to play off of, Shayna didn't have another dimension to adjust and add to her character as a bully. And now, the bully has already been beaten. As a worker, she works a very slow and deliberate pace, which, against some of the lesser workers in the division, makes for some really underwhelming matches. So if they're doing Shayna v Becky at WM36, it's striking when the iron has cooled.

So yeah, the division is not in good shape.

[improper]

Logistically, they wouldn't have been able to maintain an undefeated streak throughout another year with a PPV every single month. You can do it on NXT because NXT had only 4 or so PPVs a year. There aren't enough women on the roster to sustain an undefeated reign on the main roster. Even Ronda's undefeated streak really started to struggle to hold together by February of 2019, and she didn't become a true full timer until August 2018 when she won the belt.

So while I prefer Asuka over Charlotte/Becky as a performer I think they're completely fine with Becky as the one who became the "main" girl who beat Ronda. I can't deny how red hot Becky became late 2018 and we always complain they don't listen to fans but this time they did.

I think Becky's push and the near-exclusive spotlight on her has damaged the women's division though. Charlotte is 11 time champ but she sure doesn't feel like a big deal anymore--she loses way too often and her stat padding reigns are a running joke now. Bayley's SD reign has been an afterthought. Sasha is exactly the same as she has been the last 2 years. Alexa's not a main eventer anymore (that's a good thing imo, but she's definitely fallen off the radar huge). All the other women (Ember, Carmella, IIconics, etc) are just not relevant. The whole women's division really has been poorly booked the past year, and it's not exclusive to anyone. Throw a dart on a board and wherever it hits, that person is being booked badly in some way.

As for WM36, I also feel like Shayna lost steam after the other NXT women began upstaging her (Io, Candice, Rhea, Dakota). The minute the Candice v Io feud became hotter than Shayna's matches, Shayna's shine started to fall off big time. Shayna's a fave in here, but I feel like the last 8 months have really exposed Shayna's limitations as a worker and character. She's a great heel, but she's a one-note heel. And once she didn't have a sympathetic babyface to play off of, Shayna didn't have another dimension to adjust and add to her character as a bully. And now, the bully has already been beaten. As a worker, she works a very slow and deliberate pace, which, against some of the lesser workers in the division, makes for some really underwhelming matches. So if they're doing Shayna v Becky at WM36, it's striking when the iron has cooled.

So yeah, the division is not in good shape.

You could easily work around this by having her take on some lesser women during the non-important PPVs and just go through them like a buzzsaw. Have her face Liv Morgan and win in less than a minute. Haver her murder Natalya. Let her destroy Alexa.
You get the idea. The crowd will eat that up and it builds on her hype. Just have her demolish women in the lesser PPVs to build her up as this unstoppable force. You've got enough other big matches you can put on these cards that Asuka killing mid-tier women doesn't kill your card, and if we're being honest most of these women are never going to amount to much of anything, so having Asuka kill them isn't a big deal. During the big shows, you have her win against the upper tier women like Becky, Sasha, and Charlotte in great, competitive matches where Asuka dominates but has to work for the victory.

The problem with Asuka is that, once she got to the main roster, they stopped treating her like a force of nature, and that's the way she wrestles. She moves at a different speed than most of the women, and her strikes are a hell of a lot more convincing. They needed to lean into that and let her kill other women, but instead she became just another face in the crowd and, given that she's never going to be someone who can cut a long promo, that left her dead in the water. Asuka should be out there laying waste to b*tches.

[LLJ]

I think the one big issue with Asuka is that her size is less than most of the American women. She's big compared to most Japanese women, but compared to American women she gives up a lot of size. And when you're selling dominance, size has a lot to do with it. Brock and Goldberg, anyone can look at them and "get it". She's very strong for her size, but dominance is as much about power and explosiveness. She's explosive but she doesn't exude power, nor is her wrestling style about power. She got famous with her wrestling counters--that's about skill, not power.

In NXT most of the women were bad enough that Asuka was obviously too good to not be booked better than them. On the main roster the talent level for the most part was better, though her SKILL is still better than most (if not all of them).

How do you sell skill on a program that is mostly aimed at gum chewers? Main roster is about appealing to lowest common denominator, they don't really see "skill". If that were the case, Daniel Bryan would be booked a lot better than he is. WWE main roster isn't a highbrow program--skill often falls far below look and talking ability. On NXT they knew how to book her but the audience for that program is different too--it's more for hardcore fans, more for highbrow wrestling smarks who care about skill.

I think Asuka's current heel run has come the closest to how she should be portrayed on the main roster, for the most part. I always felt her babyface main roster run, even when she was undefeated, was not quite right. She had the dumb babyface syndrome (which doesn't fit her) and the english promos were always an issue. Heyman has done a good job with her heel run. Not unbeatable, but extremely crafty and skilled. I'm fully expecting this run to end this Sunday, but generally the last 4 months is very close to how she can believably be booked for the "gum chewers".

So while her main roster run is disappointing for fans of her in NXT, it's a very different audience and product overall between NXT and RAW/Smackdown. I think it's almost a miracle she's accomplished as much as she has on the main roster under a program that places emphasis on talking than wrestling, and Vince McMahon being a very very old and out of touch man.

[Dominator83]

I think the one big issue with Asuka is that her size is less than most of the American women. She's big compared to most Japanese women, but compared to American women she gives up a lot of size. And when you're selling dominance, size has a lot to do with it. Brock and Goldberg, anyone can look at them and "get it". She's very strong for her size, but dominance is as much about power and explosiveness. She's explosive but she doesn't exude power, nor is her wrestling style about power. She got famous with her wrestling counters--that's about skill, not power.

In NXT most of the women were bad enough that Asuka was obviously too good to not be booked better than them. On the main roster the talent level for the most part was better, though her SKILL is still better than most (if not all of them).

How do you sell skill on a program that is mostly aimed at gum chewers? Main roster is about appealing to lowest common denominator, they don't really see "skill". If that were the case, Daniel Bryan would be booked a lot better than he is. WWE main roster isn't a highbrow program--skill often falls far below look and talking ability. On NXT they knew how to book her but the audience for that program is different too--it's more for hardcore fans, more for highbrow wrestling smarks who care about skill.

I think Asuka's current heel run has come the closest to how she should be portrayed on the main roster, for the most part. I always felt her babyface main roster run, even when she was undefeated, was not quite right. She had the dumb babyface syndrome (which doesn't fit her) and the english promos were always an issue. Heyman has done a good job with her heel run. Not unbeatable, but extremely crafty and skilled. I'm fully expecting this run to end this Sunday, but generally the last 4 months is very close to how she can believably be booked for the "gum chewers".

So while her main roster run is disappointing for fans of her in NXT, it's a very different audience and product overall between NXT and RAW/Smackdown. I think it's almost a miracle she's accomplished as much as she has on the main roster under a program that places emphasis on talking than wrestling, and Vince McMahon being a very very old and out of touch man.

Yea in the mainstream wrestling world, size matters. Thats why Charlotte gets pushed the way she does. Not only is she a natural in the ring, but she possesses the SIZE to dominate her opponents. I know fans are sick of her, but fans get sick of pretty much EVERY wrestler thats been at the top for a while, heel or face. The fans were even starting to crap on Rollins and hes been fantastic the entire time hes been here

[LLJ]

Although Charlotte is GOOD, I think Charlotte is somewhat overrated skill wise. She's big and athletic but her execution is sloppy, with a lot of fumbled lifting spots at times and not so good ring awareness. And her selling is very inconsistent. She has good matches, but it's easy to see those matches are designed to give her big spots that make her look "awesome". Watch how she works outside of the big spots though and you see where Charlotte lacks compared to a couple of girls. Her moonsault of course is not good. She no sells a lot of her opponent's big moves. Some of her move execution is reckless and designed to be made to "look good" but lacking precision.

TLC also exposed Charlotte as someone who is unable to adapt if a match plan goes wrong. Becky and Asuka had to call the match at that point when Kairi was knocked out because those 2 were the 2 who had experience doing matches outside of the tightly controlled WWE structure where everything is micromanaged. Charlotte was completely lost and dazed without a gameplan and I felt embarrassed for her after she still tried to follow the gameplan despite her knowing Kairi not being able to go physically anymore.

But all these are things lost on most casual watchers, so they won't care about all this. And Vince doesn't care either. Even with men, he's always been willing to overlook people who are a little flawed, a little bit unadaptable, a little unsafe, or even a little green (Charlotte isn't green, but people like Alexa and Lacey are) if he were high enough on them.

[heatwillbeback]

WWE still confused about Charlotte.

Comes out, starts to do a nice heel promo. But no, Asuka has to come out and heel it up and cheat in the match.

So what was the point of the wasted heel promo by Charlotte?

[Rich Rane]

Saw the Edge segment tonight. Goddamn, Orton played that crowd like his favorite instrument.

[WRau1]

Andrade suspended for wellness violation, guess that explains the DDT on the concrete from the guy working as a face.

[The_Brecht]

Saw the Edge segment tonight. Goddamn, Orton played that crowd like his favorite instrument.

Orton has been great the last couple of weeks/months.

[Rich Rane]

Saw the Edge segment tonight. Goddamn, Orton played that crowd like his favorite instrument.

Orton has been great the last couple of weeks/months.

That's good. It also helps Edge that he's probably one of the safest workers in the company.

[WRau1]

Charlotte Flair WM news

Spoiler:

She's apparently going to be challenging Rhea Ripley for the NXT Championship. I thinks that's cool as ****.