WWE General Discussion II

[jakecronus8]

Roman is quite capable of putting on great matches. I will say, I can't think of two worse signature/finishes than "Superman Punch" and Spear. Both are so anticlimactic and require no strength or skill.

[iMoreland]

Matt Hardy is being transitioned into a backstage/producer role per WON.

And so is... Jason Jordan. He's apparently still having neck issues and may never be able to wrestle again. That really sucks.

[Dominator83]

Matt Hardy is being transitioned into a backstage/producer role per WON.

And so is... Jason Jordan. He's apparently still having neck issues and may never be able to wrestle again. That really sucks.

What a waste of the best gimmick in wrestling

[bestnamezRtaken]

Dude is banged up. He's been wrestling the past month or so in pain. I think once he heals up and has some good time off from wrestling in general, he'll come back. I also think Jeff will lose to Nakamura at SS so that he can be written off to take some much needed time. And then eventually we will get Woken Matt with Brother Nero returning to action.

[The_Brecht]

Dude is banged up. He's been wrestling the past month or so in pain. I think once he heals up and has some good time off from wrestling in general, he'll come back. I also think Jeff will lose to Nakamura at SS so that he can be written off to take some much needed time. And then eventually we will get Woken Matt with Brother Nero returning to action.

This probably.
I read somewhere Matt's out indefinetely.
Use his knowledge of the business to create better storylines/gimmicks in the meantime.

[Stanford]

What a waste of the best gimmick in wrestling

The Kurt Angle son thing? Yeah, I guess that was pretty sweet.

[daoneandonly]

[Maria Kanellis has taken issue with recent comments made by Charlotte Flair. In her recent campaign against Carmella, where the term "Diva" is being used as an insult, Charlotte has caught the attention of a former legitimate "WWE Diva." Kanellis took to social media this week to express her issues with the usage of the term and how she is proud to be a former WWE Diva.

Not really helping the cause here. Theres an ocean between Charlotte and Becky, and Kelly Kelly and Maria.

The women's roster, top-to-bottom, is better than its ever been. The median woman from that era is not nearly as capable as they are today. But I don't think it was entirely because of that. They were given 2-3 minute matches and the characters were entirely one-dimensional. For example, Kelly Kelly was babyface hot girl and Maryse was heel hot girl and basically the difference between them was that Kelly Kelly smiled and Maryse didn't. The aforementioned Maria was the dumb girl.

I get where Maria's coming from, because while I don't think they'd be as good as the woman are today, if they were given the time to wrestle and given character development, which although it can be uneven at times today, its still leaps-and-bounds better than it was at that time, the gap wouldn't be perceived to be as great as it is.

The problem is while the women's roster may be deep, how many of the women wrestlers are both good in the ring and the mic? Honestly, Sasha may be the only one to some extent, Charlotte maybe but only as a heel.

Alexa and Carmella can talk, but can't wrestle, and are really only in the spots they are in cause one could argue they are the 2 most attractive women on the roster. Rousey is still learning, but outright awful on the mic as of now. Natalya is by far the worst in the promo department, but Bayley Ember, Ruby Riott, etc aren't far behind. here in lies the real issue.

[Spens1]

[instagram][/instagram]

Not really helping the cause here. Theres an ocean between Charlotte and Becky, and Kelly Kelly and Maria.

The women's roster, top-to-bottom, is better than its ever been. The median woman from that era is not nearly as capable as they are today. But I don't think it was entirely because of that. They were given 2-3 minute matches and the characters were entirely one-dimensional. For example, Kelly Kelly was babyface hot girl and Maryse was heel hot girl and basically the difference between them was that Kelly Kelly smiled and Maryse didn't. The aforementioned Maria was the dumb girl.

I get where Maria's coming from, because while I don't think they'd be as good as the woman are today, if they were given the time to wrestle and given character development, which although it can be uneven at times today, its still leaps-and-bounds better than it was at that time, the gap wouldn't be perceived to be as great as it is.

The problem is while the women's roster may be deep, how many of the women wrestlers are both good in the ring and the mic? Honestly, Sasha may be the only one to some extent, Charlotte maybe but only as a heel.

Alexa and Carmella can talk, but can't wrestle, and are really only in the spots they are in cause one could argue they are the 2 most attractive women on the roster. Rousey is still learning, but outright awful on the mic as of now. Natalya is by far the worst in the promo department, but Bayley Ember, Ruby Riott, etc aren't far behind. here in lies the real issue.

Becky is solid enough on the mic. Agreed though that either you have them good on the mic or they're only good in the ring. Not many all rounders really.

[skbucks1985]

Not really helping the cause here. Theres an ocean between Charlotte and Becky, and Kelly Kelly and Maria.

The women's roster, top-to-bottom, is better than its ever been. The median woman from that era is not nearly as capable as they are today. But I don't think it was entirely because of that. They were given 2-3 minute matches and the characters were entirely one-dimensional. For example, Kelly Kelly was babyface hot girl and Maryse was heel hot girl and basically the difference between them was that Kelly Kelly smiled and Maryse didn't. The aforementioned Maria was the dumb girl.

I get where Maria's coming from, because while I don't think they'd be as good as the woman are today, if they were given the time to wrestle and given character development, which although it can be uneven at times today, its still leaps-and-bounds better than it was at that time, the gap wouldn't be perceived to be as great as it is.

The problem is while the women's roster may be deep, how many of the women wrestlers are both good in the ring and the mic? Honestly, Sasha may be the only one to some extent, Charlotte maybe but only as a heel.

Alexa and Carmella can talk, but can't wrestle, and are really only in the spots they are in cause one could argue they are the 2 most attractive women on the roster. Rousey is still learning, but outright awful on the mic as of now. Natalya is by far the worst in the promo department, but Bayley Ember, Ruby Riott, etc aren't far behind. here in lies the real issue.

I think Becky is very good on the mic. But, I think that while maybe this is a distinction without a difference, its not necessarily that these people are terrible talkers but rather that the WWE-style is one where you have a match and build to a match by basically cutting the same 10 minute in-ring promo for 3-4 straight weeks is something that Alexa and Carmella can do better than everyone else. Bayley was I thought a good talker in NXT because when she talked she actually had something to say and it never felt like she was just out there to kill time.

But, like I said, whether a WWE wrestler is bad on the mic because they just don't have the skills to do it or whether its because the format of how its structured exposes their weaknesses might be a distinction without a difference.

[Butch718]

I don't think they should pull the trigger on Ambrose's heel turn right now. I think they should have them win the tag titles down the line, and eventually have Ambose turning on Rollins somewhere between RR and WM. A match between the two should take place at Wrestlemania.

[improper]

I don't think they should pull the trigger on Ambrose's heel turn right now. I think they should have them win the tag titles down the line, and eventually have Ambose turning on Rollins somewhere between RR and WM. A match between the two should take place at Wrestlemania.

It'd also be a waste of a huge pop. But then again, they did the same thing with Rollins. He came back, got a huge pop and could have been the most over guy in the company, but instead they turned him heel again the next night and the crowd just kind of sighed.

[Southward1]

The Goldberg run was by accident. The fact is the NXT women's division was really thin when she was in it and she was basically head and shoulders above every other woman in NXT at her time in terms of sheer speed and crispness of execution. If you actually watched those matches through 2016, she was moving circles around all the women. There was basically nobody else at the time who was worthy to be NXT women's champ until late in her run.

No, she's not big or fearsome in that way, but her sheer explosiveness and quickness in transitions was legit.

And she wasn't basically someone who plowed through people, the selling point was that she was just a flat out better wrestler and quicker than everyone else and would always find an answer to every problem in a match eventually. On the main roster, she still is probably the fastest woman in terms of footspeed. Watch how she runs the ropes vs everyone else. She goes from 0 to 50 in about 3 steps. Almost every woman jogs and prances through their rope running. It's amazing how many wrestling fans say they know wrestling and can't even see who's got real fundamentals or not.

The only similarity with Goldberg was the number of wins. It wasn't like she overpowered people in 3 minute matches. She'd have long matches which were tough but she'd always win.

You wanna make money you need to appeal to the casuals and that's something Goldberg did even if that wasn't the plan from the start.
Goldberg sells because he has a good look - Hardcore fan can't stand him because he isn't a good performer but my eyes were glued to the tv when he was in the ring i loved his squash matches thought it was amazing stuff.

As a casual i enjoy watching the guys who by any means aren't considered good in the ring - Strowman, Lesnar, Goldberg, Ellsworth,Ambrose, Rousey and soon to be Cyborg etc ...

The point here is that many wrestlers have great talent but lack in other areas that arguably mean more in this day and age.

Unfortunately the bold is true on the big stage. Hulk Hogan, probably the biggest individual star in the history of the wrestling business, was crap in the ring. Steve Austin was ok in the ring but he was no Seth Rollins, AJ, or even a Chris Benoit level wrestler. Ditto John Cena (though i think hes a tad underrated because he has matches that tell a good story)

Umm, I agree with some of your points, but this one got me. Steve Austin was an incredible in ring performer. Just because he didn't do a lot of moves, highflying and dives didn't mean the guy wasn't great. Vince essentially said he hired him, because he was great in the ring. He absolutely was on Seth Rollins's level and Rollins's best matches and performance don't come close to Austin's and that's including ROH.

I saw Benoit vs. Austin enough to know they definitely on the same level, ditto with Angle and Guerrero whom Austin performed with. Him and Foley have become truly underrated and underappreciated the more we move away from their performing days.

[improper]

Austin was really good before his neck injury, but he was a lot more limited after that. He was good at telling a story and had a great character, though, so it was easier to overlook his post-injury limitations.

[Stanford]

2001 was the best year of Austin's career in the ring.

He was good at telling a story and had a great character

That's wrestling!

[Dominator83]

You wanna make money you need to appeal to the casuals and that's something Goldberg did even if that wasn't the plan from the start.
Goldberg sells because he has a good look - Hardcore fan can't stand him because he isn't a good performer but my eyes were glued to the tv when he was in the ring i loved his squash matches thought it was amazing stuff.

As a casual i enjoy watching the guys who by any means aren't considered good in the ring - Strowman, Lesnar, Goldberg, Ellsworth,Ambrose, Rousey and soon to be Cyborg etc ...

The point here is that many wrestlers have great talent but lack in other areas that arguably mean more in this day and age.

Unfortunately the bold is true on the big stage. Hulk Hogan, probably the biggest individual star in the history of the wrestling business, was crap in the ring. Steve Austin was ok in the ring but he was no Seth Rollins, AJ, or even a Chris Benoit level wrestler. Ditto John Cena (though i think hes a tad underrated because he has matches that tell a good story)

Umm, I agree with some of your points, but this one got me. Steve Austin was an incredible in ring performer. Just because he didn't do a lot of moves, highflying and dives didn't mean the guy wasn't great. Vince essentially said he hired him, because he was great in the ring. He absolutely was on Seth Rollins's level and Rollins's best matches and performance don't come close to Austin's and that's including ROH.

I saw Benoit vs. Austin enough to know they definitely on the same level, ditto with Angle and Guerrero whom Austin performed with. Him and Foley have become truly underrated and underappreciated the more we move away from their performing days.

You have a good point. I was more going by when Austin had his run of Hogan level popularity I guess.

As far as the Benoit match, for one on RAW back in the day, the build up segment was golden. Austin was in the ring talking, Benoit comes out on the stage and said something like "you sure don't do much wrestling around here. Your good at driving trucks to the ring and flipping people off, but what about wrestling? " this was obviously way back before Vince considered wrestling a dirty word lol

But as for Seth Rollins ROH, don't know about that one man. Back in the day ROH used to come here (Chicago) every other month, so I've seen plenty of amazing Tyler Black matches. Fully unleashed with no restrictions, hes just as good as Kenny Omega. I remember being 2nd row for the Champion vs champion match of Tyler Black vs Chris Hero tore the house down. And if I remember correctly, before that match was an almost equally good Roderick strong match. Man those were the days! Now we're lucky if we get ROH twice a year

[Butch718]

Austin was great in the ring. He didn't need to be a high flyer in order to put out great matches.

Hell, the Rock wasn't a great wrestler, yet I would rather watch him over a lot of so called "great technicians." Seth Rollins and AJ are great in the ring, but those two combined couldn't command an audience the way the Rock or Austin did.

[Stanford]

Austin was great in the ring. He didn't need to be a high flyer in order to put out great matches.

Hell, the Rock wasn't a great wrestler, yet I would rather watch him over a lot of so called "great technicians." Seth Rollins and AJ are great in the ring, but those two combined couldn't command an audience the way the Rock or Austin did.

I think I would rank those

1. Austin
2. AJ
3. Seth
4. Rock

Four of the best!

[improper]

2001 was the best year of Austin's career in the ring.

He was good at telling a story and had a great character

That's wrestling!

Yup. Or at least it was. Nowadays Vince's ideal match is a finisher spamming fest where the guys involved do a combined four and a half moves over fifteen minutes. We're also really lacking in great characters. Most of the guys are just generic, happy to be there characters with no concrete motivations, or they have nicknames like THE BIG DAWG that don't actually mean anything but the announcers scream them over and over anyway. There are quite a few good heel characters, but any time a heel becomes champ they tend to be booked into oblivion.

[skbucks1985]

2001 was the best year of Austin's career in the ring.

Really?

[Stanford]

2001 was the best year of Austin's career in the ring.

Really?

Hell yeah, safi! Easily.

WM17 against Rock
Three Stages of Hell
Summerslam against Angle

You could argue that these three matches are objectively 5 stars, or close. Plus, a match that I would give five stars to, one of my all-time favorites: vs. Benoit in Edmonton.

Throw in a bunch of good to very good matches with Jericho, Benoit, Angle and Rock throughout the year.

And then you have a handful of awesome tag matches with Triple H.

The dude was dialed in that year. He was incapable of having a bad match.