WWE SmackDown Discussion II

[Stanford]

That was a great line by him. I can not stand the stupid what chants. Shut up people, jeez.

Someone from this board needs to do some investigative journalism the next time they're at a TV taping and figure out who these people are and what their motivation is. I can't imagine anyone here chanting what during a Daniel Bryan promo. WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

[bestnamezRtaken]

That was a great line by him. I can not stand the stupid what chants. Shut up people, jeez.

Someone from this board needs to do some investigative journalism the next time they're at a TV taping and figure out who these people are and what their motivation is. I can't imagine anyone here chanting what during a Daniel Bryan promo. WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

lol, just start writing people's names down when you catch them doing it.

I bet some people who post here WHAT chant with everyone else. FICKLE FICKLE

[jakecronus8]

I know it's the lame smark thing to say but truth of the matter is, SDL is so much better than it's Monday counterpart that it's almost impossible to believe it's the same company. I'm really looking forward to TLC because of every Smackdown match and have zero interest in any Raw match.

[Scott Hall]

That was a great line by him. I can not stand the stupid what chants. Shut up people, jeez.

Someone from this board needs to do some investigative journalism the next time they're at a TV taping and figure out who these people are and what their motivation is. I can't imagine anyone here chanting what during a Daniel Bryan promo. WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

lol, just start writing people's names down when you catch them doing it.

I bet some people who post here WHAT chant with everyone else. FICKLE FICKLE

What?

[improper]

I bet some people who post here WHAT chant with everyone else. FICKLE FICKLE

Well, you know it's not me, because I sure as hell am not spending money to go to a WWE live show. NXT maybe, but no one chants WHAT during those.

[Stanford]

It doesn't seem like our type of poster.

[Ruzious]

DB is doing some great work as a heel, maybe even top of the main roster.

Without a doubt. To me anyway, he's THE main attraction in the WWE.

[improper]

Guys like Daniel Bryan just get wrestling in a fundamental way. You see the same thing with Johnny Gargano, who seamlessly shifted from the most over babyface in NXT history to a heel who is actually getting the fans to boo him. Some people just understand the business and succeed regardless of what's given to them. Bryan, Owens, Gargano, Ciampa...these are guys who are going to find a way to get themselves over in any role.

Just remember, Owens was booked like absolute dog sh*t for basically his entire Universal Title run and he and Jericho were still the best part of Raw by a mile. Some guys just have IT.

[Ruzious]

Guys like Daniel Bryan just get wrestling in a fundamental way. You see the same thing with Johnny Gargano, who seamlessly shifted from the most over babyface in NXT history to a heel who is actually getting the fans to boo him. Some people just understand the business and succeed regardless of what's given to them. Bryan, Owens, Gargano, Ciampa...these are guys who are going to find a way to get themselves over in any role.

Just remember, Owens was booked like absolute dog sh*t for basically his entire Universal Title run and he and Jericho were still the best part of Raw by a mile. Some guys just have IT.

Not to get off track, but you mention Gargano... The first time I saw him was only because I wanted to watch some Trevor Lee matches, and happened upon a Lee vs Gargano match - where Gargano was the heel. It was pretty obvious he was a talent back then - but I didn't realize how good he'd be. I think part of it is - these particular top guys who really don't have a great natural look - completely LOVE the business and want it to the extent that the rest of us can't comprehend - because these are not the most physically gifted.

[improper]

Not to get off track, but you mention Gargano... The first time I saw him was only because I wanted to watch some Trevor Lee matches, and happened upon a Lee vs Gargano match - where Gargano was the heel. It was pretty obvious he was a talent back then - but I didn't realize how good he'd be. I think part of it is - these particular top guys who really don't have a great natural look - completely LOVE the business and want it to the extent that the rest of us can't comprehend - because these are not the most physically gifted.

I'd hesitate to say they aren't physically gifted. Johnny Gargano is an incredible athlete. He's just not tall, which makes it harder to succeed in WWE, although it's not terribly important outside of it.

[Ruzious]

Not to get off track, but you mention Gargano... The first time I saw him was only because I wanted to watch some Trevor Lee matches, and happened upon a Lee vs Gargano match - where Gargano was the heel. It was pretty obvious he was a talent back then - but I didn't realize how good he'd be. I think part of it is - these particular top guys who really don't have a great natural look - completely LOVE the business and want it to the extent that the rest of us can't comprehend - because these are not the most physically gifted.

I'd hesitate to say they aren't physically gifted. Johnny Gargano is an incredible athlete. He's just not tall, which makes it harder to succeed in WWE, although it's not terribly important outside of it.

Meh... he's in incredible shape, but that's because he works incredibly hard at it, not because he's an incredible athlete.

[LLJ]

The thing with small guys is they either end up like Bryan or AJ...or they end up like Finn... or they end up on 205 Live.

[Stanford]

To be fair, Aj and Bryan are on one level compared to those guys, even Finn. Elite talent usually ends up on top.

[LLJ]

To be fair, Aj and Bryan are on one level compared to those guys, even Finn. Elite talent usually ends up on top.

Mmmm. I think a lot of it is look, and how they project. The 205 guys, in-ring wise, are just as talented as AJ and Bryan are arguably. But many of them either lack a certain "look" that Vince likes or they wrestle a style that feels "cruiserweighty".

AJ has a good look and projects bigger than he actually is. Bryan is small but wrestles a more hard hitting grounded style.

[Stanford]

The 205 guys, in-ring wise, are just as talented as AJ and Bryan are arguably.

I would argue that, yes. It's not just a fluke that Daniel Bryan made it to the top and Buddy Murphy probably will not. As improper said yesterday, Bryan understands wrestling psychology better than almost any wrestler ever.

I don't buy for a second that Vince finds this

Spoiler:

Less visually appealing than this

Spoiler:

[LLJ]

The 205 guys, in-ring wise, are just as talented as AJ and Bryan are arguably.

I would argue that, yes. It's not just a fluke that Daniel Bryan made it to the top and Buddy Murphy probably will not. As improper said yesterday, Bryan understands wrestling psychology better than almost any wrestler ever.

I don't buy for a second that Vince finds this

Spoiler:

Less visually appealing than this

Spoiler:

I don't know that Vince values in-ring product as much as people think. I think he understands when he sees a good match, but he doesn't necessarily book people based on their in-ring value. We've seen time and again people who are great in the ring who get shuffled off.

And they spent years fighting Bryan's popularity until they accepted him. Did they value him? Sure, but not necessarily in a WM30 booked way.

I think someone like Neville for instance could have worked on the main roster against the bigger dudes. At the very worst he could have been Finn Balor level (I think Neville being edgier looking would have helped him more). But the WWE didn't see it that way, and then we saw what happened.

[Stanford]

I don't know that Vince values in-ring product as much as people think.

I'm confused. You said Bryan succeeded because Vince prefers his in ring style.

[LLJ]

I don't know that Vince values in-ring product as much as people think.

I'm confused. You said Bryan succeeded because Vince prefers his in ring style.

It was a theory of mine of WHY Bryan may have avoided the Cruiserweight label. I'm just not sure though. Look at who he pushes as main eventers on his PPVs. And the quality of those matches. AJ is always placed in the middle of the cards.

I think having indie cache may also have something to do with it. AJ and Bryan were big indie/international stars before they got to the WWE. So in a business sense they avoided the cruiserweight label simply because they brought their own fanbase with them, which the WWE could exploit. A lot of the 205 guys don't have the same name value that AJ and Bryan did.

[Stanford]

Fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think AJ and Daniel Bryan were big indie/international stars for the same reason they're big WWE stars: they're elite talents. For as good as Mustafa Ali is, he's not even close to their level.

[LLJ]

Fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I think AJ and Daniel Bryan were big indie/international stars for the same reason they're big WWE stars: they're elite talents. For as good as Mustafa Ali is, he's not even close to their level.

There are examples of talents who had mediocre or poor WWE tenures that succeeded outside the WWE, and vice versa. I just can't completely buy the narrative that just because you succeed or fail in the WWE, is necessarily a measure of your abilities as a performer. That seems very much like the sort of propaganda a WWE-only fan would buy into.

If AJ and Bryan had no indie fanbase and came into the WWE sight unseen, would they have been pushed the same way out of the gate? I don't know.

To digress--is Samoa Joe "overrated" now because he's been booked to lose every big feud he's in on the main roster, despite having a fantastic resume? Is Finn Balor "overrated" despite having done elite work in the past and is stuck doing nothing right now? These two were considered elite talents internationally. (Having said this, I would not rule out the possibility that they could have their time at the top of the WWE eventually, either. But if their careers ended today, I think most would agree that their WWE tenures have disappointed somewhat)