WWE Raw Discussion III

[Stanford]

he just doesn't have a lot of bangers on his resume.

I disagree. A matter of taste probably. There are a bunch of WWF Austin matches I absolutely love, and I haven't really explored his WCW stuff as much as I should.

[Scott Hall]

Those who have read this board for a while probably know that I reject this argument. I think I've been pretty vocal about Austin's match resume. He's hurt by a couple things, for sure:

- Longevity: from start to finish, he only had a 13 year career as a pro wrestler. In contrast, Bret, HBK, Hogan and Angle all have 20+ years of matches to draw from.
- Era: I agree that Hogan has a lot of famous big money matches (of dubious quality) on his resume, but he had the benefit of having every big show (of which there were fewer) booked around him for a solid 6 years. The Attitude Era moved at a faster pace, with more emphasis on getting people to watch the next week's TV than building around big matches. I argue that Austin has an incredible resume of matches that just fly under the radar because they're weren't seen as historic moments.
-The perception that there were two disparate Austins (true): the wrestler and the brawler. That separation often leads people to believe that Austin was a poor wrestler after the neck injury. I argue that he was a better wrestler after the injury, but think that the two eras should be considered together when thinking about Austin's resume.

Yeah I'm not saying Austin is a bad wrestler at all and it's unfortunate that he was a victim of circumstances he
just doesn't have a lot of bangers on his resume. There's probably only a handful of matches he had that I would
go back and watch but with that said he's got a lot of underrated and forgotten matches. When I think of Austin now
it's more about moments like him Stunning somebody or cutting a promo or driving a beer truck.

Another thing that didn't work in his favor, was when he initailly won his 1st WWF championship, the list of main event contenders was pretty weak at the time. Like, Rock and HHH was a hot feud and they were mid card for the IC belt, Ken Shamrock was mid card, etc. He was limited to Kane, Taker, Foley to feud with. Austin spent most of his time at the top feuding with the boss.

Now, if you would've had Austin at that time on the WCW roster, damn! Austin defending the belt vs Hogan, vs Sting, vs Flair, vs Bret, vs Savage, vs Nash, and of course, MAJOR money v Goldberg. And many more including possible feuds with guys like Benoit and Jericho (though elevating homegrown guys wasn't really WCWs style lol)

Man would that have been great

Yeah that's one of the things I mean by circumstances and something I used to say all the time back then was
WCW had the better roster but WWE because of the Attitude Era had the better storylines. Austin didn't have a
lot of great workers to work with as it wasn't the greatest roster of all time and not many great matches came
from that era unless it was a gimmick match. Things didn't start picking up until the Dudleys, Angle, Radicalz and
Jericho started arriving.

he just doesn't have a lot of bangers on his resume.

I disagree. A matter of taste probably. There are a bunch of WWF Austin matches I absolutely love, and I haven't really explored his WCW stuff as much as I should.

I think if you look at most peoples top 50 and top 100 lists of greatest matches of all-time you would only see 3-5 Austin
matches. You have Austin vs. Bret at WM 13 and Austin vs. Rock at WM 17 for sure. Other then that? I'd say Austin vs.
Benoit and Austin vs. Steamboat would probably make it...

Then what the gimmick matches? like 3 Stages of hell vs. HHH or maybe the match with Dude Love where they brawled
around the arena and had the stooges as refs?

Unfortunately his match with HBK at WM 14 was another victim of circumstances since HBKs back was messed up and
he was a massive headcase. His other match against a healthy HBK at KOTR 1997 is completely forgettable. He had solid
matches with Undertaker and Kurt Angle and Booker T and Jericho but nothing really earth shattering. His other 2 matches
against the Rock at WM were decent.

[Stanford]

I think if you look at most peoples top 50 and top 100 lists of greatest matches of all-time you would only see 3-5 Austin matches. You have Austin vs. Bret at WM 13 and Austin vs. Rock at WM 17 for sure. Other then that? I'd say Austin vs.
Benoit and Austin vs. Steamboat would probably make it... Then what the gimmick matches? like 3 Stages of hell vs. HHH.

Well, yeah, those would be mine as well, haha. If you're telling me Austin averages 4 matches on the collective top 75 greatest matches from every wrestling fan on earth, I'd say that's pretty good. That's 5% of the entire list in a relatively short career. In contrast, when HBK retired in 98, he had already been wrestling longer than Austin's entire career. Then he came back and had another 8 year run of matches. Of course he's going to have a more complete resume. (For the record, I think HBK is a better wrestler than Austin.)

[Scott Hall]

I think if you look at most peoples top 50 and top 100 lists of greatest matches of all-time you would only see 3-5 Austin matches. You have Austin vs. Bret at WM 13 and Austin vs. Rock at WM 17 for sure. Other then that? I'd say Austin vs.
Benoit and Austin vs. Steamboat would probably make it... Then what the gimmick matches? like 3 Stages of hell vs. HHH.

Well, yeah, those would be mine as well, haha. If you're telling me Austin averages 4 matches on the collective top 75 greatest matches from every wrestling fan on earth, I'd say that's pretty good. That's 5% of the entire list in a relatively short career. In contrast, when HBK retired in 98, he had already been wrestling longer than Austin's entire career. Then he came back and had another 8 year run of matches. Of course he's going to have a more complete resume. (For the record, I think HBK is a better wrestler than Austin.)

Are gimmick matches unfair advantages over one on one matches that produced magic?

Even the match vs. Bret at WM 13 was I quit and the match at WM 17 had a lot of chair shots against the Rock and
the turn with McMahon and stuff.

Like would the Dudleys vs. the Hardys vs. Edge & Christian in a TLC match have points deducted because they had 6
guys and tables and ladders and chairs so they can do more things over just a classic one on one match with 2 guys
tearing the house down like eg. HBK vs. Taker or Savage vs. Steamboat?

I've heard the gimmick match argument before and I'm starting to lean towards the direction that maybe it shouldn't
be held on the same pedestal as a legendary one on one regular match.

[Dominator83]

I think if you look at most peoples top 50 and top 100 lists of greatest matches of all-time you would only see 3-5 Austin matches. You have Austin vs. Bret at WM 13 and Austin vs. Rock at WM 17 for sure. Other then that? I'd say Austin vs.
Benoit and Austin vs. Steamboat would probably make it... Then what the gimmick matches? like 3 Stages of hell vs. HHH.

Well, yeah, those would be mine as well, haha. If you're telling me Austin averages 4 matches on the collective top 75 greatest matches from every wrestling fan on earth, I'd say that's pretty good. That's 5% of the entire list in a relatively short career. In contrast, when HBK retired in 98, he had already been wrestling longer than Austin's entire career. Then he came back and had another 8 year run of matches. Of course he's going to have a more complete resume. (For the record, I think HBK is a better wrestler than Austin.)

Are gimmick matches unfair advantages over one on one matches that produced magic?

Even the match vs. Bret at WM 13 was I quit and the match at WM 17 had a lot of chair shots against the Rock and
the turn with McMahon and stuff.

Like would the Dudleys vs. the Hardys vs. Edge in Christian in a TLC match have points deducted because they had 6
guys and tables and ladders and chairs so they can do more things over just a classic one on one match with 2 guys
tearing the house down like eg. HBK vs. Taker or Savage vs. Steamboat?

I've heard the gimmick match argument before and I'm starting to lean towards the direction that maybe it shouldn't
be held on the same pedestal as a legendary one on one regular match.

Agreed. Like in terms of standard 1 on 1 wrestling rules matches, I honestly feel that even the Rock vs a washed up Hogan at WM18 was better than any Austin match

[Scott Hall]

Well, yeah, those would be mine as well, haha. If you're telling me Austin averages 4 matches on the collective top 75 greatest matches from every wrestling fan on earth, I'd say that's pretty good. That's 5% of the entire list in a relatively short career. In contrast, when HBK retired in 98, he had already been wrestling longer than Austin's entire career. Then he came back and had another 8 year run of matches. Of course he's going to have a more complete resume. (For the record, I think HBK is a better wrestler than Austin.)

Are gimmick matches unfair advantages over one on one matches that produced magic?

Even the match vs. Bret at WM 13 was I quit and the match at WM 17 had a lot of chair shots against the Rock and
the turn with McMahon and stuff.

Like would the Dudleys vs. the Hardys vs. Edge in Christian in a TLC match have points deducted because they had 6
guys and tables and ladders and chairs so they can do more things over just a classic one on one match with 2 guys
tearing the house down like eg. HBK vs. Taker or Savage vs. Steamboat?

I've heard the gimmick match argument before and I'm starting to lean towards the direction that maybe it shouldn't
be held on the same pedestal as a legendary one on one regular match.

Agreed. Like in terms of standard 1 on 1 wrestling rules matches, I honestly feel that even the Rock vs a washed up Hogan at WM18 was better than any Austin match

Agreed and I'm not just saying that because I was there 5th row

[improper]

If I had to pick a personal top wrestler all time, I'd probably go Jericho. He may never have drew like some of the other top guys, but he's had an absurdly long career (he's still churning out good matches), never allowed himself to become a nostalgia act like many others (looking at you, Taker) by constantly reinventing his character through the years, has a ton of classic matches on his resume, and has now elevated two other companies (NJPW & AEW) simply by signing with them. Plus, he's one of the greatest promos in the history of the business. I'd put him right up there with Rock in that regard.

[Flames24Rulz]

If I had to pick a personal top wrestler all time, I'd probably go Jericho. He may never have drew like some of the other top guys, but he's had an absurdly long career (he's still churning out good matches), never allowed himself to become a nostalgia act like many others (looking at you, Taker) by constantly reinventing his character through the years, has a ton of classic matches on his resume, and has now elevated two other companies (NJPW & AEW) simply by signing with them. Plus, he's one of the greatest promos in the history of the business. I'd put him right up there with Rock in that regard.

He's been my favorite active wrestler ever since I got back into wrestling, so around 2012. He's probably passed Austin/Rock/Hogan for my favorite wrestler ever with the runs he's had in his 40's, over the last seven years. Dude can get anything over, can get (almost) anybody over (exception being Fandango), and is absolutely entertaining both in & out of the ring. Even with being in his late 40's, the fact that he can still churn out close to 5 star matches is extremely impressive, especially when you look at all of the other great wrestlers in their late 40's.

[improper]

Yeah, Jericho has clearly lost a step but he's still capable of putting out quality matches. They best ones are just more in the four star range than the instant classics he used to be capable of.

[Dominator83]

If I had to pick a personal top wrestler all time, I'd probably go Jericho. He may never have drew like some of the other top guys, but he's had an absurdly long career (he's still churning out good matches), never allowed himself to become a nostalgia act like many others (looking at you, Taker) by constantly reinventing his character through the years, has a ton of classic matches on his resume, and has now elevated two other companies (NJPW & AEW) simply by signing with them. Plus, he's one of the greatest promos in the history of the business. I'd put him right up there with Rock in that regard.

Back when he was in WCW, I used to call him WCW's version of the Rock.

[Dominator83]

If I had to pick a personal top wrestler all time, I'd probably go Jericho. He may never have drew like some of the other top guys, but he's had an absurdly long career (he's still churning out good matches), never allowed himself to become a nostalgia act like many others (looking at you, Taker) by constantly reinventing his character through the years, has a ton of classic matches on his resume, and has now elevated two other companies (NJPW & AEW) simply by signing with them. Plus, he's one of the greatest promos in the history of the business. I'd put him right up there with Rock in that regard.

He's been my favorite active wrestler ever since I got back into wrestling, so around 2012. He's probably passed Austin/Rock/Hogan for my favorite wrestler ever with the runs he's had in his 40's, over the last seven years. Dude can get anything over, can get (almost) anybody over (exception being Fandango), and is absolutely entertaining both in & out of the ring. Even with being in his late 40's, the fact that he can still churn out close to 5 star matches is extremely impressive, especially when you look at all of the other great wrestlers in their late 40's.

It probably helps that he took a few long hiatus's too. It probably helped preserve him. Sorta like how Michaels was away from the grind for 4 years, then had another Hall of Fame worthy 2nd run

[improper]

It probably helps that he took a few long hiatus's too. It probably helped preserve him. Sorta like how Michaels was away from the grind for 4 years, then had another Hall of Fame worthy 2nd run

Yeah, he's been smart about his schedule, but I do appreciate that, when he did come back, he always came back full time until he left again. He didn't just disappear for two months like Brock. He was on Raw and Smackdown every week, or at least on one of them if there was a brand split at the time.

But it also helps that he always comes back with a new version of his character. He hasn't allowed himself to be turned into a cheap nostalgia act like Taker, Triple H (when he comes back once a year for 'Mania), or any of the other geriatrics they parade around the ring for a few weeks when ratings take a dump. He evolves and comes up with new material and new gimmicks.

[iMoreland]

I'm gonna be upset if they had Gable go this far only to lose in the finals... But KOTR is perfect for Corbin and I think they'll have him win.

[Scott Hall]

If I had to pick a personal top wrestler all time, I'd probably go Jericho. He may never have drew like some of the other top guys, but he's had an absurdly long career (he's still churning out good matches), never allowed himself to become a nostalgia act like many others (looking at you, Taker) by constantly reinventing his character through the years, has a ton of classic matches on his resume, and has now elevated two other companies (NJPW & AEW) simply by signing with them. Plus, he's one of the greatest promos in the history of the business. I'd put him right up there with Rock in that regard.

He's been my favorite active wrestler ever since I got back into wrestling, so around 2012. He's probably passed Austin/Rock/Hogan for my favorite wrestler ever with the runs he's had in his 40's, over the last seven years. Dude can get anything over, can get (almost) anybody over (exception being Fandango), and is absolutely entertaining both in & out of the ring. Even with being in his late 40's, the fact that he can still churn out close to 5 star matches is extremely impressive, especially when you look at all of the other great wrestlers in their late 40's.

Jericho actually got Fandango over people were signing and dancing to his theme song all the time and after their
WM match people bought into him as a sold mid carder and a legit IC tittle threat.

For whatever reason Vince buried him... it's one of the many things I hate about Vince he builds up these characters
makes the audience get interested in them they get over and then nukes them because he personally doesn't like them.
Then it's almost impossible to get vested into them again when he decides to push them out of the blue again.

[Stanford]

Jericho actually got Fandango over people were signing and dancing to his theme song all the time and after their
WM match

Not true. That had nothing to do with Jericho. I was in the crowd that night in New Jersey. It was started by a group of British fans, of which there were many. Everyone in that arena was ready to chant and sing just about anything that night.

[Dominator83]

I'm gonna be upset if they had Gable go this far only to lose in the finals... But KOTR is perfect for Corbin and I think they'll have him win.

This is just incredibly cringeworthy. Instead of having some combination of Ricochet/Joe/Mcintyre vs Owens/Andrade, we get this snoozefest. We're not getting an Austin/HHH/Bret/Angle/Brock/Owen/Booker T out of this, we're getting another Mabel or at best, a Mr. Ass

[Scott Hall]

Jericho actually got Fandango over people were signing and dancing to his theme song all the time and after their
WM match

Not true. That had nothing to do with Jericho. I was in the crowd that night in New Jersey. It was started by a group of British fans, of which there were many. Everyone in that arena was ready to chant and sing just about anything that night.

Having Jericho face and put over Fandango legitimized him to a lot of fans and made him feel important
that rub he gave him was big.

And yes it was the British fans that loved singing to that song they love singing in general. The NXT UK PPV
was all about British fans signing random songs.

[Stanford]

Having Jericho face and put over Fandango legitimized him to a lot of fans and made him feel important

I do not agree. Fandango was a meme and that's it. No one cared about the outcome of any of his matches.

I don't have a lot of first hand knowledge about anything in wrestling, but this I do.

[Scott Hall]

Having Jericho face and put over Fandango legitimized him to a lot of fans and made him feel important

I do not agree. Fandango was a meme and that's it. No one cared about the outcome of any of his matches.

I don't have a lot of first hand knowledge about anything in wrestling, but this I do.

No you're definitely wrong Fandango was over for a good 3 or 4 months before Vince killed him off

[Scott Hall]

Ahhh King Corbin...

The guy who retired Kurt Angle at WM.... the guy who co-main evented the July PPV and the guy who needed this
KOTR the absolute least wins it.

The only potential positive out of this is Gable has been elevated but lets see how long it actually lasts for. Wouldn't
surprise me if he was back in catering soon.