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In the thread about The Rock someone mentioned Mick Foley winning the title as one of the biggest reasons WWf won the Monday Night Wars and I responded by saying that if I was making a list I didn't even think that incident was in the top 10. This prompted our venerable mod Stanford to suggest that I make said list. So here we go:

I thought the best way to do this was a combination of specific incidents but also bigger picture institutional reasons because the reason WWF won was because of a combination of those things.

1. WCW not going all the way with young stars-Frankly I could start and end the list with just this. This was, by far, the main reason WCW failed. And I think there's a significant distinction to be made between making a star and going all the way with said star. WCW made Chris Jericho, Eddie Guerrerro, Rey Mysterio stars. Those guys were infinitely bigger stars after they left WCW than they were when they got there and had they not become household names in WCW, who knows what would've happened to them once they got to WWF. Having said that, the three guys I mentioned, Benoit, Booker T were all guys who were at one time or another extremely over but with the exception of Booker T at the very end, none of these guys got above the mid-card. Then you also have a number of guys like Malenko, Kidman, Saturn and Raven who were very over during there WCW runs but never got big WWF runs. Those 9 guys plus Goldberg and the eventual additions of Lance Storm and Mike Awesome, I think that's a dozen guys you can build a company around with Goldberg obviously being your franchise player.

2. Letting the inmates run the asylum-Number 1 happened because of number 2. Primarily Hogan and Nash were given way too much power and they didn't want to push the "Vanilla Midgets" as they put it so they continued to push their buddies which were the old guys. A lot of us, myself included, complain about all of the power HHH has, but Hogan and Nash were Trips on steroids. Atleast Trips has a vested interest in what happens to the company after he’s gone, those guys were all about getting there’s and helping there buddies whatever happens to the business be damned.

3. The Curtain Call-Most of you know the incident, Trips, HBK, Nash and Hall hugged in the middle of MSG breaking kayfabe. Hall and Nash were leaving and HBK was the champ so all of the punishment went to Trips. He was supposed to win King of the Ring but was instead buried for the next few months. Austin ended up winning, Austin 3:16 was born and we all know the rest. Perhaps, Austin still gets that push later, but Austin 3:16 is probably never uttered and he probably never has that match with Bret Hart which is what put him in that main event spot.

4. AOL-Time Warner merger-If we want to be really technical, this is the real reason WCW died. Even at their low points, they were still getting 2.5’s, far and away the best rated show on TNT. But when this merger happened for about a year it looked like WCW on life support and when Jamie Kellner took over the company, he made it clear he wanted to get rid of WCW and that was it.

5. Montreal Screwjob-This was supposed to be WCW’s kill shot. You’re winning and then you get, arguably, WWF’s biggest star. Didn’t quite turn out that way. Why Bret didn’t work in WCW is a topic that deserves its own thread. But that incident was the birth of the Mr. McMahon character. That character has been WWF’s top heel at multiple times since then.

6. DX- With all of the iterations and watering down of DX, it has obfuscated just how vulgar and different the first version of DX was. Because of the ownership situation WCW couldn’t do anything like this and when you have two companies offering very similar products any time you can do things that your competitor can’t and those things work it always helps.

7. The Radicalz-Its not so much that Benoit, Guerrerro, Saturn and Malenko defected, although that was bad, it was more about the way it happened. Benoit wins the title the night before and remember the internet dirt sheets weren’t anywhere near what they are today, and you turn on Nitro expecting to see the new champ cut a promo. Instead we hear about the title being vacated and flip it over to Raw and we see the best of WCW’s mid-card sitting in the crowd and then they beat the crap out of the New Age Outlaws. It really felt like WCW was the minor leagues.

8. Scott Hall’s inability to stop drinking-If you watch early-mid 1998 WCW when they were laying the seeds of the NWO split it was initially Hall and Macho Man vs Hogan and Nash. I really think the initial plan was for the Wolfpac to be Savage and Hall. I like Nash, I think he’s really entertaining and I think he’s actually a decent wrestler for his size. Having said that, and I’m sure Nash would admit this as well, he’s not nearly the performer Hall is. Scott Hall had the ability to be the kind of guy you build a company around. If Hall had been able to stay completely healthy, he’s the kind of guy who could’ve made a real difference.

9. Vince Russo-I don’t really ascribe to the view that WCW died because of Russo. It was sinking long before he got there. But he certainly expedited the process. So many of the really negative things you think about WCW, David Arquette winning the title, the reprehensible Oklahoma character, they were Russo products.

10. The Rock-Most guys there stardom is based on circumstance and being in the right place at the right time. The Rock is the anomaly, unless you give him the most boring, generic character like the one he was introduced with, he would’ve become a star no matter where he was. He was that kind of transcendent talent that makes people change the channel and pulls in people who had no interest, otherwise.

Storylines and developing new talent. I felt once nWo was done, then WCW fell apart. I had no idea what that new blood/millionaires thing was about either.

safi wrote:1. WCW not going all the way with young stars

Their core problem. They didn't have the young talent the WWF did, and what good young talent they did have, they didn't know how to build it up properly. The only mega star they built from the ground up was Goldberg, followed by Sting.

safi wrote:2. Letting the inmates run the asylum-Number 1 happened because of number 2. Primarily Hogan and Nash were given way too much power and they didn't want to push the "Vanilla Midgets" as they put it so they continued to push their buddies which were the old guys.

True. Having creative control over your own character is never a good idea; it's a conflict of interest. Unless you're truly selfless, which is extremely rare especially in show business, you're going to favor your character and your friends' characters. They either didn't care about what was best for the business or were too self-absorbed to realize that they weren't all that.

safi wrote:3. The Curtain Call-Most of you know the incident, Trips, HBK, Nash and Hall hugged in the middle of MSG breaking kayfabe. Hall and Nash were leaving and HBK was the champ so all of the punishment went to Trips. He was supposed to win King of the Ring but was instead buried for the next few months. Austin ended up winning, Austin 3:16 was born and we all know the rest. Perhaps, Austin still gets that push later, but Austin 3:16 is probably never uttered and he probably never has that match with Bret Hart which is what put him in that main event spot.

That's interesting, though talent like Stone Cold usually rises to the top. He would have become quite huge anyway; maybe not as huge, but definitely huge.

safi wrote:4. AOL-Time Warner merger-If we want to be really technical, this is the real reason WCW died. Even at their low points, they were still getting 2.5’s, far and away the best rated show on TNT. But when this merger happened for about a year it looked like WCW on life support and when Jamie Kellner took over the company, he made it clear he wanted to get rid of WCW and that was it.

He never would have wanted to sell it if it was still a great product though, which it wasn't. The WCW flamed out after the nWo lost it's luster because it was the only good storyline they really had, and eventually, half the company was in the nWo.

safi wrote:5. Montreal Screwjob-This was supposed to be WCW’s kill shot. You’re winning and then you get, arguably, WWF’s biggest star. Didn’t quite turn out that way. Why Bret didn’t work in WCW is a topic that deserves its own thread. But that incident was the birth of the Mr. McMahon character. That character has been WWF’s top heel at multiple times since then.

True; Cliff Levingston can think of a variety of reasons why Bret didn't work in WCW, and good point about Vince becoming a major heel after this. He was indeed the top heel the business has ever seen.

safi wrote:6. DX- With all of the iterations and watering down of DX, it has obfuscated just how vulgar and different the first version of DX was. Because of the ownership situation WCW couldn’t do anything like this and when you have two companies offering very similar products any time you can do things that your competitor can’t and those things work it always helps.

Maybe, although DX came after the nWo revelation started, and Cliff Levingston always thought DX was a way of trying to steal some of the nWo's thunder. Quickly though, DX became their own powerhouse, blazing more of a trail than the nWo, and the nWo actually stole the crotch chop. Credit there goes to the WWF creative team.

safi wrote:7. The Radicalz-Its not so much that Benoit, Guerrerro, Saturn and Malenko defected, although that was bad, it was more about the way it happened. Benoit wins the title the night before and remember the internet dirt sheets weren’t anywhere near what they are today, and you turn on Nitro expecting to see the new champ cut a promo. Instead we hear about the title being vacated and flip it over to Raw and we see the best of WCW’s mid-card sitting in the crowd and then they beat the crap out of the New Age Outlaws. It really felt like WCW was the minor leagues.

That's true. Guerrero, Malenko and Saturn were all pretty secondary to that storyline, ICLO. The WWF eventually was able to use Guerrero better than the WCW ever did, but that was all about Benoit. Major get for the WWF there not too long after they took Jericho and made him quite the big deal. Just more evidence of the WWF knowing how to use their talent vs. the WCW not.

safi wrote:8. Scott Hall’s inability to stop drinking-If you watch early-mid 1998 WCW when they were laying the seeds of the NWO split it was initially Hall and Macho Man vs Hogan and Nash. I really think the initial plan was for the Wolfpac to be Savage and Hall. I like Nash, I think he’s really entertaining and I think he’s actually a decent wrestler for his size. Having said that, and I’m sure Nash would admit this as well, he’s not nearly the performer Hall is. Scott Hall had the ability to be the kind of guy you build a company around. If Hall had been able to stay completely healthy, he’s the kind of guy who could’ve made a real difference.

This is true, but it takes a smart company to see these problems coming and go a different direction. They hung onto Hall too long and they paid for it.

safi wrote:9. Vince Russo-I don’t really ascribe to the view that WCW died because of Russo. It was sinking long before he got there. But he certainly expedited the process. So many of the really negative things you think about WCW, David Arquette winning the title, the reprehensible Oklahoma character, they were Russo products.

Russo is a blithering idiot. He's much more about theatrics than wrestling, as evidenced by WCW and TNA's PPVs having 13 matches, none of which are longer than 10 minutes, with countless run-ins, dirty finishes, interferences, etc. If the business in general has lost sight of anything, it's that the foundation of professional wrestling is the wrestling. Every storyline can only have a payoff with a big match, so if the wrestlers can't wrestle or deliver a crappy/unfinished match, either there is no pay-off or the pay-off sucks. Under Russo, both WCW and TNA are known for having crappy pay-offs.

safi wrote:10. The Rock-Most guys there stardom is based on circumstance and being in the right place at the right time. The Rock is the anomaly, unless you give him the most boring, generic character like the one he was introduced with, he would’ve become a star no matter where he was. He was that kind of transcendent talent that makes people change the channel and pulls in people who had no interest, otherwise.

Which further highlights the WWE's ability to build and exploit talent. They tried Rock as a generic face, it didn't work, so they made him heel and put in the Nation of Domination where he took off. Regardless of the Rock's talent, the WWE deserves credit for recognizing his talent and putting him in a position to succeed. Given their track record, WCW may have thought he didn't have the chops to make it and released him a la Stone Cold Steve Austin or just let him flounder on the mid-card a la Chris Jericho.

Good list. Good read.

from the other thread

Rich Rane wrote:I think the bigger impact, and if making a list as safi mentioned is probably Top 3, has got to be on Nitro that same night when Hogan poked Kevin Nash and won the title and reunited the nWo.

Another good point.

Check out DX doing it years prior too. Pretty funny, wonder if they got the idea from this.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlKdoyiYbdA[/youtube]

lol at Cornette 5:39 - 5:50

Cliff I have a couple points to quibble about. About the selling of WCW, you're right that if they were still getting the ratings they got from 96-98 they would've probably still been there. But, you still had a guy in charge who didn't like wrestling and didn't want wrestling to be part of his programming. And he would've been looking for the first chance to pull them off.

About The Rock, you brought up Jericho and he highlights the point that WCW wasn't completely devoid of the ability to let guys loose. When Jericho got there he was the Lionheart, a pretty generic face charachter. It was in WCW that he got the whiny, obnoxious persona that he's had pretty much since 2009. When it comes to Jericho, WCW did all the hard work WWF just got to reap all the rewards. I'd also disagree that he was floundering in WCW. He was slowly working his way up the card, perhaps it wasn't going as fast as he thought it should have and there was probably a limit to the heights he could reach. But its not like he was feuding with Scotty Riggs and Sickboy.

safi wrote:About The Rock, you brought up Jericho and he highlights the point that WCW wasn't completely devoid of the ability to let guys loose. When Jericho got there he was the Lionheart, a pretty generic face charachter. It was in WCW that he got the whiny, obnoxious persona that he's had pretty much since 2009. When it comes to Jericho, WCW did all the hard work WWF just got to reap all the rewards. I'd also disagree that he was floundering in WCW. He was slowly working his way up the card, perhaps it wasn't going as fast as he thought it should have and there was probably a limit to the heights he could reach. But its not like he was feuding with Scotty Riggs and Sickboy.

You're mostly right, though he didn't feud with pillars of popularity and success in the business though. Mysterio is the biggest name he feuded with, though at the time, it was in the cruiserweight division (which was good back then). He had feuds with Juventud Guerrera, Disco Inferno, Prince Iaukea, but most notably, Dean Malenko (man of 1,004 holds, haha). That was during his cruiserweight championship days.

After that, he moved onto the TV title. This is taken from wikipedia:

Jericho cites Eric Bischoff, Goldberg, and Hulk Hogan's reluctance to book Jericho in a pay-per-view squash match loss against Goldberg, which Jericho felt would be a big draw, as a major reason for his deciding to leave the company.

This was after his mocking of Goldberg and his undefeated streak. After that, he lost the TV title to Konnan and had the dress feud with Saturn. Lame.

You're right though, Jericho reached some good heights in WCW, but as evidenced above, they didn't want to take him any higher even though he clearly belonged there, which is why he left. The WWE brought him in with a promo with the Rock, put him in the IC title picture and later put him in that great feud with HHH and Stephanie. From there, he was main event material, something the WCW didn't want to make him.

In regards to Jericho, the WCW can take credit for his booking but his character was solely a product of his own doing. He created that whiny obnoxious character. He says in his WWE dvd that he was basically given air time to cut promos when he wanted it and he did whatever he wanted when he had it. That whole persona was a product of Chris Jericho and not anything from the WCW creative team.

Cliff Levingston wrote:

safi wrote:About The Rock, you brought up Jericho and he highlights the point that WCW wasn't completely devoid of the ability to let guys loose. When Jericho got there he was the Lionheart, a pretty generic face charachter. It was in WCW that he got the whiny, obnoxious persona that he's had pretty much since 2009. When it comes to Jericho, WCW did all the hard work WWF just got to reap all the rewards. I'd also disagree that he was floundering in WCW. He was slowly working his way up the card, perhaps it wasn't going as fast as he thought it should have and there was probably a limit to the heights he could reach. But its not like he was feuding with Scotty Riggs and Sickboy.

You're mostly right, though he didn't feud with pillars of popularity and success in the business though. Mysterio is the biggest name he feuded with, though at the time, it was in the cruiserweight division (which was good back then). He had feuds with Juventud Guerrera, Disco Inferno, Prince Iaukea, but most notably, Dean Malenko (man of 1,004 holds, haha). That was during his cruiserweight championship days.

After that, he moved onto the TV title. This is taken from wikipedia:

Jericho cites Eric Bischoff, Goldberg, and Hulk Hogan's reluctance to book Jericho in a pay-per-view squash match loss against Goldberg, which Jericho felt would be a big draw, as a major reason for his deciding to leave the company.

This was after his mocking of Goldberg and his undefeated streak. After that, he lost the TV title to Konnan and had the dress feud with Saturn. Lame.

You're right though, Jericho reached some good heights in WCW, but as evidenced above, they didn't want to take him any higher even though he clearly belonged there, which is why he left. The WWE brought him in with a promo with the Rock, put him in the IC title picture and later put him in that great feud with HHH and Stephanie. From there, he was main event material, something the WCW didn't want to make him.

I know that he wanted that feud with Goldberg, but I completely understand Bischoff and company's reluctance to do that. Goldberg was far above Jericho on the card and having them feud together would've been a disservice to Goldberg because it would've been a guy beneath him but also Jericho because Goldberg would've completely buried him.

Dunthreevy wrote:In regards to Jericho, the WCW can take credit for his booking but his character was solely a product of his own doing. He created that whiny obnoxious character. He says in his WWE dvd that he was basically given air time to cut promos when he wanted it and he did whatever he wanted when he had it. That whole persona was a product of Chris Jericho and not anything from the WCW creative team.

I don't know how true this is. I know Jericho hated WCW and he won't give them any credit for anything with regards to his career despite the fact that they deserve a lot, if for no other reason, than they give him a much larger platform than he'd ever had. But the way he went from the Lionheart charachter to that whiny obnoxious charachter was a lengthy losing streak and by the end he was going crazy and throwing chairs and beating up ring announcers.

Of course, he deserves the most credit for his charachter as do Austin and Rock for there's. A creative team member can only do so much, they can create the greatest charachter but if the guy can't execute it the charachter will fall flat.

safi wrote:I know that he wanted that feud with Goldberg, but I completely understand Bischoff and company's reluctance to do that. Goldberg was far above Jericho on the card and having them feud together would've been a disservice to Goldberg because it would've been a guy beneath him but also Jericho because Goldberg would've completely buried him.

One thing is for sure, Jericho was far below Goldberg and that obviously turned out to be a bad move in hindsight. Just because he was far below him doesn't mean they couldn't have made a successful program. Look at Jericho/HHH early in Jericho's WWE career. HHH was the big bad champion and Jericho was just a little peon but he upset HHH which lead into a great program between the two.

The bottom line: the WCW had a great talent in Jericho and they didn't want to push him. They dropped the ball on Jericho and the WWE didn't. It's common theme when you compare the two companies. The WWE built far more guys from nothing than the WCW did, and they've taken more mid-card talent from WCW and turned them into main eventers (Austin, Jericho, Guerrero, etc) than vice versa.

Cliff Levingston wrote:

safi wrote:I know that he wanted that feud with Goldberg, but I completely understand Bischoff and company's reluctance to do that. Goldberg was far above Jericho on the card and having them feud together would've been a disservice to Goldberg because it would've been a guy beneath him but also Jericho because Goldberg would've completely buried him.

One thing is for sure, Jericho was far below Goldberg and that obviously turned out to be a bad move in hindsight. Just because he was far below him doesn't mean they couldn't have made a successful program. Look at Jericho/HHH early in Jericho's WWE career. HHH was the big bad champion and Jericho was just a little peon but he upset HHH which lead into a great program between the two.

The bottom line: the WCW had a great talent in Jericho and they didn't want to push him. They dropped the ball on Jericho and the WWE didn't. It's common theme when you compare the two companies. The WWE built far more guys from nothing than the WCW did, and they've taken more mid-card talent from WCW and turned them into main eventers (Austin, Jericho, Guerrero, etc) than vice versa.

The big difference is that Trips is/was a far better wrestler and talker than Goldberg. Trips and also Stephanie McMahon were able to put over Jericho despite the fact that Trips won the feud. I don't think Goldberg had the ability in the ring and on the mic to do that. Goldberg-Jericho probably would've been a 3-4 minute squash match and like I said it would've done nothing for either guy. If Jericho wanted a feud with Piper or DDP or Sting, I could understand where he's coming from.

I agree with you about Benoit, Guerrerro, Mysterio and Booker T should've gotten his push a year-and-a-half before it happened. I think they get a bit of a pass on Jericho because he was moving his way up the card and he probably would've been eventually screwed over like those other guys were, but I completely understand why they wouldn't have wanted a Jericho-Godberg feud.

Regarding your first point, could you explain who Jericho, Mysterio, or Guerrero defeated during their WCW days? Mysterio had those victories over the Giant, Bigelow, and Nash. Other than that I don't recall him getting too many victories over larger wrestlers. Same for Jericho and Guerrero. People complain about WWE not pushing smaller wrestlers but WCW at the end was doing a far worse job than any other wrestling league ever. They had a much bigger audience wrestling in WCW than they did previously in their careers so of course they're going to be bigger stars but usually you have to defeat other talent to become stars. They weren't doing that at that point.

I don't think I ever said that they did go over bigger wrestlers, although both of them did but that's not the point I was making in fact if anything I was saying the opposite. All I said was that the platform WCW gave them was bigger than any they'd had to that point and that without the platform they provided who knows how much success they would've had in WWE.

I always believed that the main reason the WWF won was because of their focus. WCW was always about the wrestling; plot, entertainment, and spectacle were always secondary. You can see this with their biggest home-grown talent during the MNW: Goldberg. The guy had no promo skills whatsoever and his character was built up through wrestling domination (and never saying anything about it).

WWE, on the other hand, has been all about the spectacle for decades. And at the end of the day I think more people tune in for that spectacle than tune in for the wrestling.

WCW made a few critical errors along the way. First, the NWO was hot when it started and they just started having guys join them left, right and center. If they didn't want to keep it to the three main guys, they should never have let that group grow beyond 5 or 6 guys. They also should have gotten a couple of young guys in their to develop.

Second, once the NWO was well established, they didn't use them to establish new stars. Hogan, Nash and Hall had too much creative control.

Their entire show was built around this one angle and they had no next step and didn't develop anything else. Once WWF went to the Attitude Era, they had 5 or 6 solid main eventers and were establishing the next crop at different levels.

whysoserious wrote:Once WWF went to the Attitude Era, they had 5 or 6 solid main eventers and were establishing the next crop at different levels.

Which is funny considering WCW was also establishing the next crop of WWF stars.


Solid thread btw. I never watched WCW, and I was 13 when they finally folded. I've just been re-educating myself on this stuff over the last couple of years.

whysoserious wrote:WCW made a few critical errors along the way. First, the NWO was hot when it started and they just started having guys join them left, right and center. If they didn't want to keep it to the three main guys, they should never have let that group grow beyond 5 or 6 guys. They also should have gotten a couple of young guys in their to develop.

Second, once the NWO was well established, they didn't use them to establish new stars. Hogan, Nash and Hall had too much creative control.

Their entire show was built around this one angle and they had no next step and didn't develop anything else. Once WWF went to the Attitude Era, they had 5 or 6 solid main eventers and were establishing the next crop at different levels.

One of the big issues with the NWO, and I think Bischoff has admitted this in some interview, is that it became too successful. I think when this angle was initially thought of, Bischoff's best case scenario was a highly successful monster heel stable. He didn't expect it to revolutionize the company and the industry the way it did. Because of this it just kept getting bigger and they didn't know how to end it. The angle should've ended at Starrcade 98 with Sting going over Hogan clean, or in there rematch a month later. There was no official end to the angle. Uncensored 99 when Hogan lost to Flair is regarded as the unofficial end, but even after that Hogan and Nash were still wearing NWO stuff for a few months even though Hogan was a face. He didn't go back to beign Hulk until a few months later.

safi wrote:He didn't expect it to revolutionize the company and the industry the way it did.

According to Arn Anderson's book the Horsemen did almost everything the NWO did. I've also seen it mentioned that Japan had an angle very similar to what the NWO did prior to the NWO. Usually you need originality to revolutionize something and it sounds like they copied others more than anything. It was a very successful angle but it's hard to say they revolutionized the industry.

Celtsfan1980 wrote:

safi wrote:He didn't expect it to revolutionize the company and the industry the way it did.

According to Arn Anderson's book the Horsemen did almost everything the NWO did. I've also seen it mentioned that Japan had an angle very similar to what the NWO did prior to the NWO. Usually you need originality to revolutionize something and it sounds like they copied others more than anything. It was a very successful angle but it's hard to say they revolutionized the industry.

I know Arn and also Ric Flair aren't exactly the biggest fans of the NWO and I take there opinions on the subject with a grain of salt. The larger point that you need to be original to revolutionize something is nonsense. Even if you copy something but take it to a significantly larger audience you still get and deserve the credit for the success of that thing. Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Paul Allen didn't invent computers but they were the primary architects in making them accessible to the public and when looking at the history of computers they are much bigger players than the guys who invented computers.

The swagger with which the Outsiders carried themselves, the heel power figure which were staples of the attitude era and, to a lesser extent, still today were started in WCW.

Stanford wrote:

whysoserious wrote:Once WWF went to the Attitude Era, they had 5 or 6 solid main eventers and were establishing the next crop at different levels.

Which is funny considering WCW was also establishing the next crop of WWF stars.


Solid thread btw. I never watched WCW, and I was 13 when they finally folded. I've just been re-educating myself on this stuff over the last couple of years.

This was their main problem. They had the talent in the company and developed it but they hit the glass ceiling and were held there for too long while the NWO and lesser talents were getting some pushes. That's why slowly WCW lost some of their young and upcoming talent which helped WWF.

Other than Goldberg and maybe DDP (to a lesser extent), they just didn't develop guys and push them up to that top level.

They had so much talent - Rey Mysterio, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Raven, Konnan, Kidman, etc.