ROH (Ring of Honor) Thread

[SDM]

Cornette (and JR) and Vince Russo... they're from two separate schools and they all say the same thing about the indie product: it's too damn fast and the in-ring character work is deplorable, we get in-ring work in WWE/TNA that rival the wrestling-first indies, the fans make the shows about themselves, and the audience has been conditioned to only pop for big moves and not the heel/face nuances. James Mitchell was on The Swerve and he was awesome, going into his gripes with the indie product and his troubles trying to get some of the younger TNA guys to understand how to get true heat, since they thought big move + crowd pop = heat. Russo brought up what I thought was a decent point: the PWG/ROH guys didn't grow up wanting to be Bruiser Brody or Hacksaw, they're in the generation that grew up creating themselves in videogames and doing "flippy ****".

[Marcus]

by the way, anybody interested in seeing a full PWG show private message me an email address and I can try to google drive it to ya or I might even upload one to the tube if that doesn't work. just let a mafukka know.

What is objectively their best show?

hard to say. I'm big on the Bola's just because its somewhat a marathon for these guys over a course of a few days and its a taste of a WWE esque schedule with them doing these big spot matches 2 to 3 days str8 or the DDT tourneys which are multiple tag matches for these guys on a given night.

With all that being said I haven't seen every show and I'm limited as far as what I can provide. I torrent the shows so I get what's available online and for the most part all I've been able to find are their bigger shows.

out of what I have on hand I'd say Sold Our Soul for Rock and Roll has been pretty good. I can see if I can find the show with Solo Crowe's last match and I think I have Generico's last match and Steen's last match there somewhere. May even find some Willie Mack on that show if I recall. You check him out before he hits NXT and get an idea of what he can do.

I'll screen um and find a goodie for ya though if you're interested. they keep a pretty steady cast of characters around so if you've seen a guy on one show then you can more than likely surmise what he's capable of in the ring and decide if you wanna see more.

To touch on the move after move after move thing, there is this guy Brian Cage (massive mofo) his nickname caters to that PWG style he's Mr. GMSI (Getting My **** In) because he will generally find a way to squeeze in his ENTIRE artillery of moves before the match is over. So they know what they are over there.

[Marcus]

Cornette (and JR) and Vince Russo... they're from two separate schools and they all say the same thing about the indie product: it's too damn fast and the in-ring character work is deplorable, we get in-ring work in WWE/TNA that rival the wrestling-first indies, the fans make the shows about themselves, and the audience has been conditioned to only pop for big moves and not the heel/face nuances. James Mitchell was on The Swerve and he was awesome, going into his gripes with the indie product and his troubles trying to get some of the younger TNA guys to understand how to get true heat, since they thought big move + crowd pop = heat. Russo brought up what I thought was a decent point: the PWG/ROH guys didn't grow up wanting to be Bruiser Brody or Hacksaw, they're in the generation that grew up creating themselves in videogames and doing "flippy ****".

to be fair while all those are valid points the indies don't get to run week after week of programming to where they can build stories that aren't months apart and use the nuances if they wanna keep an audience (although RoH used to be better about doing that). I think they have to somewhat do what they do action wise to bring in an audience and keep them engulfed off the back.

as far as the work they do in an indy ring I think its more case by case than they might think. I would assume from watching them work. a Adam Cole or Kyle O'Reilly wouldn't need as much NXT seasoning as say a Young Bucks would.

[skbucks1985]

I would call it misplaced snobbery rather than a contradiction.

I disagree. I think within the context of what he's asked to do and his place on the card an argument could be made that John Cena is poor at selling. And enjoying PWG and there style doesn't preclude someone from making that argument.

[skbucks1985]

I think there's definitely an argument that the Indy style hurts the ability of the wrestlers to take the next steps in there careers. They get addicted to the high spot pop and that's what they're always chasing. But I think it says more about the individual, there obstinance, how much they actually want to be in WWE and TNA than the Indy style itself. A lot of guys have successfully made the transition and are successfully making it as we speak in WWE right now. If El Generico could make it, than anybody can if they want to. And its more about the individual than the Indy style and if they did take the advice of all these guys and apply it to the Indies, then you're just a wannabe WWE except in a much smaller venue.

[SDM]

Cornette (and JR) and Vince Russo... they're from two separate schools and they all say the same thing about the indie product: it's too damn fast and the in-ring character work is deplorable, we get in-ring work in WWE/TNA that rival the wrestling-first indies, the fans make the shows about themselves, and the audience has been conditioned to only pop for big moves and not the heel/face nuances. James Mitchell was on The Swerve and he was awesome, going into his gripes with the indie product and his troubles trying to get some of the younger TNA guys to understand how to get true heat, since they thought big move + crowd pop = heat. Russo brought up what I thought was a decent point: the PWG/ROH guys didn't grow up wanting to be Bruiser Brody or Hacksaw, they're in the generation that grew up creating themselves in videogames and doing "flippy ****".

to be fair while all those are valid points the indies don't get to run week after week of programming to where they can build stories that aren't months apart and use the nuances if they wanna keep an audience (although RoH used to be better about doing that). I think they have to somewhat do what they do action wise to bring in an audience and keep them engulfed off the back.

as far as the work they do in an indy ring I think its more case by case than they might think. I would assume from watching them work. a Adam Cole or Kyle O'Reilly wouldn't need as much NXT seasoning as say a Young Bucks would.

There are definitely a few guys there that could work for the big boys in any era because they get the nuances... Cole and O'Reilly for sure, Jay Briscoe is an awesome finished product who could debut at the top of the card anywhere. They get that you can mix the flippy **** with storytelling and facial expressions and mic work and non-chant-specific crowd pandering and that making your opponent look good makes you money too.

You're absolutely right about those constraints, but at the same time, appealing to a segment of the sports entertainment/wrestling fanbase and not everyone is a problem... RoH isn't converting anyone who already doesn't prefer wrestling to the storylines and that's a BIG TIME dwindling market. Maybe I'm understating the difficulty, but all it really takes is commitment to a specific direction and laying out an appropriate timeline... they do not necessarily have to know when their next show is, but they do have to know what they intend to accomplish when that show does arrive beyond "these guys can go, let's pair them up". Collectively, they have to build to something.

[skbucks1985]

There are definitely a few guys there that could work for the big boys in any era because they get the nuances... Cole and O'Reilly for sure, Jay Briscoe is an awesome finished product who could debut at the top of the card anywhere. They get that you can mix the flippy **** with storytelling and facial expressions and mic work and non-chant-specific crowd pandering and that making your opponent look good makes you money too.

You're absolutely right about those constraints, but at the same time, appealing to a segment of the sports entertainment/wrestling fanbase and not everyone is a problem... RoH isn't converting anyone who already doesn't prefer wrestling to the storylines and that's a BIG TIME dwindling market. Maybe I'm understating the difficulty, but all it really takes is commitment to a specific direction and laying out an appropriate timeline... they do not necessarily have to know when their next show is, but they do have to know what they intend to accomplish when that show does arrive beyond "these guys can go, let's pair them up". Collectively, they have to build to something.

Its really not fair to compare WWE and TNA to Indy's because there business models are fundamentally different. WWE and TNA are primarily a TV and PPV company. That's where they make the lion's share of there money and that's where they focus the lion's share of there attention. Both companies obviously do run live events but its a dwindling piece of the pie for them. Indy's are primarily a live event business and they have to promote themselves differently. To the point of having a direction I think they usually do have a specific direction and its that of a sporting event. We're going to take these two guys and watch them go at it and let the best man win.

ROH is in a weird sort of spot not fully in one or the other category. But I don't think there issue is there product, there issue is exposure. I very strongly believe that if Spike gave them TNA's spot, within 6 months they'd be doing the same numbers TNA is. And if given that platform they'd have to modify there product, but as of right now with a syndicated TV product that comes on at disparate hours on the weekend, they are primarily a live event business. And, frankly, all things considered I think there story lines are pretty good.

[Marcus]

You're absolutely right about those constraints, but at the same time, appealing to a segment of the sports entertainment/wrestling fanbase and not everyone is a problem... RoH isn't converting anyone who already doesn't prefer wrestling to the storylines and that's a BIG TIME dwindling market. Maybe I'm understating the difficulty, but all it really takes is commitment to a specific direction and laying out an appropriate timeline... they do not necessarily have to know when their next show is, but they do have to know what they intend to accomplish when that show does arrive beyond "these guys can go, let's pair them up". Collectively, they have to build to something.

i agree with you in these points and i think that's what made the Sapolsky led RoH so damn appealing. they gave you that blend of enough story with very good wrestling even with the stretched dates. I'd like to see someone go back to that but I do wonder where the market for it currently resides when taking in the consideration that Sapolsky has had 3 other promotions since departing RoH and hasn't quite struck that same chord. To that point though is it just a talent thing where maybe the styles that an AR Foxes and Rich Swanns of the world can't be coaxed out of them? to the point where a guy like Sapolsky can't do what he did when he had the Shelleys, Aries', Danielsons, and Joes back in the heydays of RoH because these new guys are just that conditioned to do what they've been given the freedom to do in every other indy promotion? Combined with the fact that the guys Sapolsky could make those RoH glory days moves with aren't available to him anymore due to them being apart of bigger promotions?

i think you're right as far as finding a committed promoter and committed group of workers any style of wrestling you want to put on can be obtained even something old school based but could that group of ladies and gentlemen really get around all the obstacles that seem to be present in todays climate?

Like it or not for the complete wrestling product WWE is where its at whether its RAW, Main Event, Smackdown, Superstars (for the kids) or NXT you find what you're looking for somewhere under their umbrella with the talent they've assembled on that roster.

[Marcus]

ROH is in a weird sort of spot not fully in one or the other category. But I don't think there issue is there product, there issue is exposure. I very strongly believe that if Spike gave them TNA's spot, within 6 months they'd be doing the same numbers TNA is. And if given that platform they'd have to modify there product, but as of right now with a syndicated TV product that comes on at disparate hours on the weekend, they are primarily a live event business. And, frankly, all things considered I think there story lines are pretty good.

I love RoH but if they get a TV spot they need to step their announcer game up if its still Nigel and Kevin Kelley that combo ruins a lot of the action for me.

[Marcus]

This is why I love you guys btw.

[skbucks1985]

ROH is in a weird sort of spot not fully in one or the other category. But I don't think there issue is there product, there issue is exposure. I very strongly believe that if Spike gave them TNA's spot, within 6 months they'd be doing the same numbers TNA is. And if given that platform they'd have to modify there product, but as of right now with a syndicated TV product that comes on at disparate hours on the weekend, they are primarily a live event business. And, frankly, all things considered I think there story lines are pretty good.

I love RoH but if they get a TV spot they need to step their announcer game up if its still Nigel and Kevin Kelley that combo ruins a lot of the action for me.

I really like there announcers. I think Kevin Kelley is usually very good, the ROH product makes for a difficult play-by-play job but I think more often than not he's quite good. And I think Corino is easily the best color announcer among the 3 American companies.

[Marcus]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayDTjfOVmBY&list=UU4_uDa6w1kOyzsikIzReCKQ&index=3[/youtube]

how could you not wanna just punch that adorable face of his?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKSM2dhA4CY&index=20&list=UU4_uDa6w1kOyzsikIzReCKQ[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5jPLjZt0P0&list=UU4_uDa6w1kOyzsikIzReCKQ&index=8[/youtube]

that range though

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsR1tocgKWk&index=4&list=UU4_uDa6w1kOyzsikIzReCKQ[/youtube]

it makes no sense that after all this time and absolute mic gold that has been put around him over the years that Roderick Strong STILL can't cut a promo.

[Marcus]

Jay Briscoe is another one that should get some WWE consideration. I know he'd be a package deal with Mark but Jay is so money to me.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkBeLtjMl2g&index=19&list=UU4_uDa6w1kOyzsikIzReCKQ[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNki3BIkaXM[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgcxLxfeg34[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN9oiTUbNks[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zpMgZu6v2E[/youtube]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELOn2amIn_w[/youtube]

[Dunthreevy]

I could watch Jay Briscoe promos all day long. Never seen one that didn't entertain me.

[Marcus]

I could watch Jay Briscoe promos all day long. Never seen one that didn't entertain me.

am i alone in thinking he has a modday Austin feel to him if given the big stage?

[Dunthreevy]

I could watch Jay Briscoe promos all day long. Never seen one that didn't entertain me.

am i alone in thinking he has a modday Austin feel to him if given the big stage?

Not at all alone in that thinking. He's got a very unapologetic delivery and it's 100% authentic to who he is. A Jay Briscoe promo is essentially the same thing you would get if you were to get on his bad side while out at a bar or something. There is no difference between the character and the person. Sure he's probably different with his family and whatnot, but that's about it.

[Dunthreevy]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsR1tocgKWk&index=4&list=UU4_uDa6w1kOyzsikIzReCKQ[/youtube]

it makes no sense that after all this time and absolute mic gold that has been put around him over the years that Roderick Strong STILL can't cut a promo.

His promos sound like what AJ Styles sounded like when they were doing the Fourtune stable. That is to say that they sound really bad.

[Marcus]

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsR1tocgKWk&index=4&list=UU4_uDa6w1kOyzsikIzReCKQ[/youtube]

it makes no sense that after all this time and absolute mic gold that has been put around him over the years that Roderick Strong STILL can't cut a promo.

His promos sound like what AJ Styles sounded like when they were doing the Fourtune stable. That is to say that they sound really bad.

i find it astounding because when Roddy does commentary on PWG or with his fan interactions ringside he sounds like a witty dude like he could be a fairly entertaining character on the stick but he just can't bring that out in his promos for some reason. never sounds comfortable.

[Marcus]

I could watch Jay Briscoe promos all day long. Never seen one that didn't entertain me.

am i alone in thinking he has a modday Austin feel to him if given the big stage?

Not at all alone in that thinking. He's got a very unapologetic delivery and it's 100% authentic to who he is. A Jay Briscoe promo is essentially the same thing you would get if you were to get on his bad side while out at a bar or something. There is no difference between the character and the person. Sure he's probably different with his family and whatnot, but that's about it.

not completely sold on Mark being able to make that transition but i doubt Jay goes big time without bringing lil bro along. They could still run this same gimmick there where Jay does the mic work and Mark keeps the comedy but i'd hate to see them buried in a non-existing tag team division on the main show when they have such superstar potential in Jay.

[skbucks1985]

There is zero chance the Briscoe's will be in WWE. You guys do know these guys are complete morons who go on idiotic homophobic rants right?