NJPW Thread (New Japan Pro Wrestling)

[WRau1]

I really liked Jericho v Omega but the commentary was very annoying.

[Spens1]

I really liked Jericho v Omega but the commentary was very annoying.

Agree wholeheartedly.

Kevin Kelly i think is a huge liability. I mean Callis is a colour commentator so that's kind of his job (i mean he should be markish at times and biased) but the play-by-play shouldn't be getting involved in said theatrics. Plus the overall calling was pretty poor.

New Japan need to find a way to convince Mauro Ranallo to return to the company (yes it would be at the expense of NXT but its not like they're going to struggle to get commentators) cause they need a good play-by-play with Callis.

[WRau1]

I guess I assumed that Jericho vs Omega was a one time thing for Jericho, especially with his rumored return to the Royal Rumble. It doesn't really look like that now with him attacking Naito.

[improper]

I guess I assumed that Jericho vs Omega was a one time thing for Jericho, especially with his rumored return to the Royal Rumble. It doesn't really look like that now with him attacking Naito.

Well, he just put on his best match in years, so maybe he wants to keep that going and take a crack at several of the NJPW top guys?

[studcrackers]

believe it was only my 2nd time watching a wrestle kingdom but i loved the show

couple quick thoughts:
opener w/the young bucks was good

rhodes vs ibushii was great. brandi still lookin fine as hell and the cross rhodes off the apron was insane

fatal 4 way was maybe my fav of the night. 1a to jericho/omega's 1b

jericho/omega was great. fav jericho match in years and the physicality between the 2 was fantastic

main event was really good but i dont think it shouldve main evented (at least from this american's point of view)

overall a fantastic show even w/o me knowing pretty much any backstory

[Spens1]

I guess I assumed that Jericho vs Omega was a one time thing for Jericho, especially with his rumored return to the Royal Rumble. It doesn't really look like that now with him attacking Naito.

yeah i thought so too, i don't think he even wrestles at wrestlemania now (or if he does, it will be a surprise return at the event).

Still, should be a good match

[Spens1]

believe it was only my 2nd time watching a wrestle kingdom but i loved the show

couple quick thoughts:
opener w/the young bucks was good

rhodes vs ibushii was great. brandi still lookin fine as hell and the cross rhodes off the apron was insane

fatal 4 way was maybe my fav of the night. 1a to jericho/omega's 1b

jericho/omega was great. fav jericho match in years and the physicality between the 2 was fantastic

main event was really good but i dont think it shouldve main evented (at least from this american's point of view)

overall a fantastic show even w/o me knowing pretty much any backstory

world title always main events (except that one time they had the IC title main event due to the unpopularity of the actual world title match).

But from a western standpoint for sure Jericho vs Omega would feel a lot bigger (if their is no backstory). The only thing is that Okada and Naito are the #1 and #2 guys in the company.

[improper]

The only thing is that Okada and Naito are the #1 and #2 guys in the company.

Two of the best wrestlers in the world too.

[improper]

Seriously...you watch Jericho working a damn 35 minute match like that and Rey Mysterio going to Lucha Underground and looking fantastic, then remember both guys looked borderline done in the WWE (Jericho did have some solid matches with Owens, to be fair), and I swear WWE intentionally holds guys back.

You can also look at how guys regularly have incredible matches in NXT, but the main roster's incredible matches are so few and far between despite having a good chunk of the most talented workers in the world, which only furthers the point.

[WRau1]

I forgot how much I liked Jay White. I really enjoy his matches.

[LLJ]

Seriously...you watch Jericho working a damn 35 minute match like that and Rey Mysterio going to Lucha Underground and looking fantastic, then remember both guys looked borderline done in the WWE (Jericho did have some solid matches with Owens, to be fair), and I swear WWE intentionally holds guys back.

You can also look at how guys regularly have incredible matches in NXT, but the main roster's incredible matches are so few and far between despite having a good chunk of the most talented workers in the world, which only furthers the point.

It has been an open secret for years that the WWE isn't really about good wrestling. They are aiming for a different demographic who doesn't care so much about in-ring workrate like the more hardcore wrestling fans do.. They also have like a few dozen or so wrestling moves on the banned list--some quite justifiably banned (Sitout Tombstone Piledriver), many less so. Some of the bumps and moves Jericho and Omega took, wouldn't be allowed in the WWE.

They're more about week to week storylines and marketing certain draws, regardless of whether they are actually good in-ring workers or not.

[improper]

It has been an open secret for years that the WWE isn't really about good wrestling. They are aiming for a different demographic who doesn't care so much about in-ring workrate like the more hardcore wrestling fans do.. They also have like a few dozen or so wrestling moves on the banned list--some quite justifiably banned (Sitout Tombstone Piledriver), many less so. Some of the bumps and moves Jericho and Omega took, wouldn't be allowed in the WWE.

They're more about week to week storylines and marketing certain draws, regardless of whether they are actually good in-ring workers or not.

I get that WWE doesn't really care about good wrestling, but at the same time, I also don't see why they seemingly deliberately hold guys back in the ring either. It seems like everyone would benefit from better PPV matches. The fans would get more invested, which means more viewers and more merchandise sales. The wrestlers would have more fun too, because you have to know that they all love going out and putting on a great show. It's win-win. There's no down side. Great feud-ending matches don't detract from the week to week story lines either. In fact, they only add to it.

And for all the talk about how they care so much about week to week story lines, they do such a godawful job of telling stories. They're even worse at that than they are at in-ring stuff.

[LLJ]

^^

I agree with you on nearly all your criticisms, which is why I don't really watch the WWE as much anymore. But there's a reason why they hold guys back--for safety reasons, match time constraints, controlling violence level to please sponsors, etc,. Putting on a slower build match that unfolds as a narrative is a lost art, and that's because they have no confidence in their fanbase to sit through a match that isn't just about a series of random (safe) punching, and messily placed spots. And now that they've gone PG, the level of viciousness/physicality in matches has decreased as well. What was the last WWE match that was truly vicious looking?

Another thing is they (Vince) is more interested in a wrestler's "look" than anything else they do. To Vince, the drawing power of a wrestler is tied much more to his look and packaging than his skills. He likes Roman Reigns because he fits the profile of Vince's ideal looking champion. He liked Jinder because he was big and looked like an ideal monster heel. It doesn't matter to Vince that their actual wrestling skills are somewhat limited right now. And don't let anyone tell you Alexa Bliss has had a title for god knows how long just because of her strong mic skills. Because It isn't. The primary reason is she's blonde and hot. It doesn't matter that she's actually a worse wrestler than even the women during the Attitude era. It's all about her look--she has the look Vince feels has the best drawing power, her actual skills be damned. I wouldn't be surprised if Asuka's winning streak ends clean with an Alexa DDT.

So, pushing inexperienced/poor workers to the top of the card also greatly affects match quality to a negative degree. They do have AJ Styles who's a great worker. But most of the other title holders vary widely in skill and experience. Meanwhile, the talented workers get pushed down, and thus have far less time to work with in matches. It's difficult to show as much when you are in the mid or undercard and are lucky to get more than an 8-10 minute match in a PPV.

FWIW, some of the most famously strong workers in WWE history, like Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, were actually some of the lowest drawing main eventers in their history. So, there is statistical evidence suggesting that casual fans don't really care about good wrestling and more about seeing larger than life characters.

[improper]

Personally, I don't think it has anything to do with safety reasons. If that were the case, you wouldn't have matches like the Usos and New Day in Hell in a Cell. Further, if they were concerned about the safety of their workers, they wouldn't have them working 200+ days a year destroying their bodies for the company. WWE doesn't give a damn about the safety of their workers, unless of course there are legal concerns like with CTE.

You don't need to work dangerously to have a great match. NXT has great matches all the time, and NXT doesn't do anything functionally different from the main roster other than give the wrestlers a longer leash when it comes to planning out their matches. Almas/McIntyre was a great match that didn't really feature any dangerous spots. I know Drew got hurt, but that was because he accidentally grabbed the top rope on Almas' finisher, not because they worked dangerously. Black/Dream was another match that was fantastic and didn't require either guy to take unnecessary risks. Both of those matches were better than damn near any main roster match this year, but they didn't do anything markedly different from main roster WWE. Further, neither of those matches were any more violent than your average match. Their quality came from the booking and the in-ring work.

I think you're a bit off on Bliss as well. I don't think it's fair to say that she's a worse worker than the Attitude Era women. She's a competent worker, just not top-tier. She can put on good matches with the right opponent. The problem with the women's division is that they have so few ring generals who can lead a match. Most of the women are like Alexa...fully capable of having good to great matches, but they need a ring general to lead them. That's the problem, though. Those generals are in short supply.

I agree on Vince, though. He's an out of touch idiot who runs the show like his personal toy collection rather than trying to give the fans what they want.

[LLJ]

It's definitely not out of moral concern for their safety, true. But they can't have top guys getting injured and missing time. That's bad for the bottom line. In the past wrestlers would either work through it or take drugs to minimize the pain/speed up healing. But there are now legal protocols in place, so they've decided to minimize match quality to compensate. They won't cut down the number of house shows because as you suggested, they want that money.

NXT does give their matches more time to unfold. For one thing they don't fill out their PPVs and TV episodes with so much talking and skits as the main shows do. So this does allow for better quality matches. Guys don't feel like they have to rush through their spots. And you're probably right--the wrestlers have more creative freedom in the ring. I have no evidence to logically claim that the main roster matches are more controlled by Vince and the team, but it *is* possible that they have less control over the unfolding of the action. I've heard of stories in the past where outcomes were changed by Vince DURING a match and the ref would tell the wrestlers to figure out how to work it, right after about 13 minutes of wrestling towards a different outcome. So hearing stuff like this, I'm almost not surprised that matches on the main roster lack flow and quality.

As for Alexa Bliss, she WAS competent, when she was on NXT. She's actually regressed a lot. She hasn't had a good match since getting called up to the main, and has been very selfish in making her opponents look bad with her crap selling.

Google "Is Alexa afraid to get hit?" and you'll get a ton of damning links to sites showing her awful early selling of nearly every move that isn't a grab and slam. Once you see them you start to notice it in every match she's in. Makes it look like her opponents are missing her or made a mistake, when it's actually 100% her fault. And then you hear the rumours that she was actually supposed to take at least one kendo shot in the Bayley feud, but they wrote it out because she wasn't willing to take one (Bayley instead took all of them). This stuff has been going on for well over a year now. Trish Stratus, for all her limitations, at least always was willing to take a realistic bump and/or make her opponents' offense look good.

[improper]

It's definitely not out of moral concern for their safety, true. But they can't have top guys getting injured and missing time. That's bad for the bottom line. In the past wrestlers would either work through it or take drugs to minimize the pain/speed up healing. But there are now legal protocols in place, so they've decided to minimize match quality to compensate. They won't cut down the number of house shows because as you suggested, they want that money.

Yeah, I get that they won't cut the number of house shows, but it's just an example of why they just generally don't give a crap about the health of their workers. And they don't really have top guys any more since no one but Roman is allowed to get over. Everyone else is just kind of interchangeable at this point. No one is allowed to stand out. When Rollins missed time with injury, he was easily replaced with a dozen other guys who are good workers but rarely allowed to show it.

NXT does give their matches more time to unfold. For one thing they don't fill out their PPVs and TV episodes with so much talking and skits as the main shows do. So this does allow for better quality matches. Guys don't feel like they have to rush through their spots. And you're probably right--the wrestlers have more creative freedom in the ring. I have no evidence to logically claim that the main roster matches are more controlled by Vince and the team, but it *is* possible that they have less control over the unfolding of the action. I've heard of stories in the past where outcomes were changed by Vince DURING a match and the ref would tell the wrestlers to figure out how to work it, right after about 13 minutes of wrestling towards a different outcome. So hearing stuff like this, I'm almost not surprised that matches on the main roster lack flow and quality.

I don't think it's really true that NXT gives their matches more time. Comparing the singles/tag matches from Survivor Series with the singles matches from WarGames (I'm discounting the WarGames match and the elimination tag matches for obvious reasons), there's really no difference. NXT isn't NJPW, giving guys thirty-plus minutes to work a singles bout. The NXT Championship match at WarGames was just under fifteen minutes long, as was Black/Dream, both of which were shorter than Charlotte/Bliss and Lesnar/Styles from Survivor Series, not to mention the tag match between the Usos and the Bar.

There really doesn't seem to be much of a difference between the match lengths of main roster PPVs and NXT Takeovers. The only real difference is in the quality. Takeovers are always good, whereas most main roster PPVs tend to be more suck than quality, with a good match sprinkled in here and there. I think the reason NXT is better has nothing to do with time, but rather booking. NXT has competent bookers and agents who understand what the fans want and, for the most part, are willing to give that to them. The main roster more often than not probably knows what the fans want, but deliberately does the opposite. This is why NXT crowds are always fantastic, whereas main roster crowds often rebel against the show. A great, hot crowd adds to a match. A bad or uncaring crowd detracts from a match. So not only does NXT have better matches and better, smarter booking, but they have better crowds too as a result. It all comes together to make NXT a uniformly better experience for viewers.

And as I mentioned earlier, I also think NXT gives their performers more freedom to be themselves, which results in better matches. It has nothing to do with making the matches less safe or any more violent than the main roster. For the most part, NXT mirrors the rest of the company. There's no blood unless it's an accident, there's no adult content, there's no more swearing than you'd see on Raw or Smackdown, and the matches aren't any more violent or unsafe either. The main difference is that NXT is ran by a guy who spent his life wrestling, who lives and breathes wrestling, who understands what makes wrestling work. The main roster, on the other hand, is ran by a guy who doesn't understand wrestling or what works and doesn't work, and is more interesting in using the performers like his personal action figures than putting together a coherent, quality wrestling show.

[LLJ]

I suppose. I do agree with you NXT simply looks and feels like a better product from top to bottom. I'm not a fan of HHH the wrestler, but I admit he's done a great job with it. On the subject of physicality, I've thought Nakamura and Asuka's kicks have looked a little less stiff on the main roster compared to when they were NXT, but that might be subjective.

[Ruzious]

It's definitely not out of moral concern for their safety, true. But they can't have top guys getting injured and missing time. That's bad for the bottom line. In the past wrestlers would either work through it or take drugs to minimize the pain/speed up healing. But there are now legal protocols in place, so they've decided to minimize match quality to compensate. They won't cut down the number of house shows because as you suggested, they want that money.

NXT does give their matches more time to unfold. For one thing they don't fill out their PPVs and TV episodes with so much talking and skits as the main shows do. So this does allow for better quality matches. Guys don't feel like they have to rush through their spots. And you're probably right--the wrestlers have more creative freedom in the ring. I have no evidence to logically claim that the main roster matches are more controlled by Vince and the team, but it *is* possible that they have less control over the unfolding of the action. I've heard of stories in the past where outcomes were changed by Vince DURING a match and the ref would tell the wrestlers to figure out how to work it, right after about 13 minutes of wrestling towards a different outcome. So hearing stuff like this, I'm almost not surprised that matches on the main roster lack flow and quality.

As for Alexa Bliss, she WAS competent, when she was on NXT. She's actually regressed a lot. She hasn't had a good match since getting called up to the main, and has been very selfish in making her opponents look bad with her crap selling.

Google "Is Alexa afraid to get hit?" and you'll get a ton of damning links to sites showing her awful early selling of nearly every move that isn't a grab and slam. Once you see them you start to notice it in every match she's in. Makes it look like her opponents are missing her or made a mistake, when it's actually 100% her fault. And then you hear the rumours that she was actually supposed to take at least one kendo shot in the Bayley feud, but they wrote it out because she wasn't willing to take one (Bayley instead took all of them). This stuff has been going on for well over a year now. Trish Stratus, for all her limitations, at least always was willing to take a realistic bump and/or make her opponents' offense look good.

100% agree with this and your post previous to it. But the biggest problem with Alexa Bliss is she's just not believable as someone who can physically compete with the bigger and better wrestlers in WWE. She doesn't have the skills and athleticism to make up for her lack of size and strength. And pushing her as champion hasn't helped the womens' divisions. It doesn't surprise me if she refused to take a kendo stick hit, because she very well might not be able to take it safely.

And clearly, the great New Japan matches we see would never be held in WWE because of safety reasons. It's not just for show that you see most of their wrestlers having their necks iced after big matches.

[improper]

And clearly, the great New Japan matches we see would never be held in WWE because of safety reasons. It's not just for show that you see most of their wrestlers having their necks iced after big matches.

There wasn't really anything in that Omega/Jericho match that couldn't have been done in WWE, outside of the blading, but that could have been removed and it wouldn't have made the match any worse. The only other questionable spot in that match was when Jericho repeatedly bashed Omega's head into the chair set up in the corner, but I think you could pull that off in WWE safely as well. It's a bit different than taking an unprotected chair shot to the head because you can go into it shoulder first in this instance and still make it look great.

Other than that, they didn't really have any spots that you wouldn't see in the average WWE hardcore match. It worked because the two guys made it look like they really hated each other and were trying to hurt each other, and because Jericho had his heel work dialed up to eleven. But again, I don't think they did any moves that would be banned in WWE.

I do agree that a lot of NJPW matches have moves that aren't allowed in WWE, and they tend to be worked a lot stiffer, but that's not the sole reason NJPW is better than WWE. Okada/Naito, as far as I can recall, wasn't filled with spots that wouldn't be allowed in WWE and it was still better than about 99% of WWE matches from the past year. I think the main differences are similar to the differences between WWE and NXT. NJPW, like NXT, understands what the fans want and delivers it regularly. They give their performers more freedom in the ring to be who they are. They have great booking and match planning. NXT has all of those things and is awesome despite being under the WWE umbrella and being limited in all the ways that NJPW is not. So I don't think you can simply point to moves being banned and a lack of blood as why NJPW is better, because NXT has banned moves and a lack of blood and it's still consistently great, and hasn't had a bad Takeover probably ever.

[jr lucosa]

I haven't been able to watch the rest of the show yet, but enjoyed Jericho's match and am excited for what's in the plans for him here