WWE Raw Discussion II

[Stanford]

Cena is the GOAT.

This is true

[Spens1]

John got no reaction until the beachball got popped also he phoned it in tonight. Man knew he was going over (wrong call tbh, i would have had Finn going over if for no other reason, what does Balor have going for him right now, Cena at least would get a match, granted i know Cena and Elias will take each other out in the EC).

Cena did look off though, maybe he didn't want to do another chamber match (it is rough to expect a 40 year old to be in the EC, even if its soft in comparison to 10 years ago).

Screw what this company keeps on doing to Balor, every time they build momentum they kill it.

[Spens1]

Cena is the GOAT.

This is true

Watch on YouTube

you where saying. Also this isn't Flair in his prime.

[Spens1]

Cena's honestly top 20 at best. He's good but he's highly overrated given that he led WWE in an era of decline (post attitude era). He's also been the face of the move away from things fan loved (attitude era and even RA era to the P.G era) and he's never had the universal backing of the fans despite the fact that they pushed him the hardest of any star up until that point (now obviously, Reigns got pushed about 3 times as hard as Cena but that's besides the point). No doubt Cena is great, but how many years, despite being at the top, did it take him to get to that level. Cena didn't come good until 2010 or so, so 4-5 years at the top basically. Hell, Reigns in ring only took a year to come good after being pushed.

Granted, they also did Cena wrong also booking wise. If they turned him in 2011 like they should have then honestly I think fans would look at him a lot more favourably than they do now.

[Spens1]

Is coach any good?

his themes sure were (either one of them).

Watch on YouTube

I thought he was a good GM, just had to follow Uncle Eric which is always tough.

[Scott Hall]

Outside of Banks vs. Asuka I felt RAW was extremely boring again and I fell asleep. I was PVring
it so I just woke up and watched the rest.

I can't wait till the next draft/superstar shake up as this brand really needs it as the roster is completely stale
especially since it doesn't have the depth with all the injuries

[jakecronus8]

I'm not a huge Cena fan but I can't deny his greatness. The most important thing for wrestlers is making money and getting over. Cena has done both of those things better than anyone. I'll always say, he's done something that's never been done and likely never will be again: he is simultaneously the company's biggest heel and babyface. That's incredible. Add in the fact that he's consistently number one in Merch sales despite a flooded market.

And if you take away the business side of it, the casuals, marks and young audiences all care about what he's doing 100% of the time, and he delivers great matches in nearly 100% of big situations that call for it. To say he's maybe top 20 is just being a hater and/or a troll.

ETA: since someone brought up Flair, I must say Flair is one of my all time favorites. I think even he'd tell you he doesn't hold a candle to Cena in the ring. He's got him on promos (though Cena is about as good as anyone there too) but that's about it. Love Naitch, but he wrestled the same match for 30+ years.

[skbucks1985]

I'm not a huge Cena fan but I can't deny his greatness. The most important thing for wrestlers is making money and getting over. Cena has done both of those things better than anyone. I'll always say, he's done something that's never been done and likely never will be again: he is simultaneously the company's biggest heel and babyface. That's incredible. Add in the fact that he's consistently number one in Merch sales despite a flooded market.

And if you take away the business side of it, the casuals, marks and young audiences all care about what he's doing 100% of the time, and he delivers great matches in nearly 100% of big situations that call for it. To say he's maybe top 20 is just being a hater and/or a troll.

ETA: since someone brought up Flair, I must say Flair is one of my all time favorites. I think even he'd tell you he doesn't hold a candle to Cena in the ring. He's got him on promos (though Cena is about as good as anyone there too) but that's about it. Love Naitch, but he wrestled the same match for 30+ years.

I think saying he's barely top 20 is ridiculous, but I also think its entirely fair to say that John Cena has been a failure as a centerpiece draw. The retorts to this would be that no one would've done better in that spot and he was the best person for the role and/or that the drops in business predated Cena. And some or all of those might be true. But the only things we can know for sure is what actually happened and what actually happened is that ratings have continued to steadily decrease since his run at the top (and have continued as he's receded the past 3+ years) and while the Rock-Cena matches did big business as a whole PPV business went down to the point that they basically got out of the PPV business.

[jakecronus8]

I'm not a huge Cena fan but I can't deny his greatness. The most important thing for wrestlers is making money and getting over. Cena has done both of those things better than anyone. I'll always say, he's done something that's never been done and likely never will be again: he is simultaneously the company's biggest heel and babyface. That's incredible. Add in the fact that he's consistently number one in Merch sales despite a flooded market.

And if you take away the business side of it, the casuals, marks and young audiences all care about what he's doing 100% of the time, and he delivers great matches in nearly 100% of big situations that call for it. To say he's maybe top 20 is just being a hater and/or a troll.

ETA: since someone brought up Flair, I must say Flair is one of my all time favorites. I think even he'd tell you he doesn't hold a candle to Cena in the ring. He's got him on promos (though Cena is about as good as anyone there too) but that's about it. Love Naitch, but he wrestled the same match for 30+ years.

I think saying he's barely top 20 is ridiculous, but I also think its entirely fair to say that John Cena has been a failure as a centerpiece draw. The retorts to this would be that no one would've done better in that spot and he was the best person for the role and/or that the drops in business predated Cena. And some or all of those might be true. But the only things we can know for sure is what actually happened and what actually happened is that ratings have continued to steadily decrease since his run at the top (and have continued as he's receded the past 3+ years) and while the Rock-Cena matches did big business as a whole PPV business went down to the point that they basically got out of the PPV business.

If you're only using tv ratings as a barometer sure. But that period from 97-2000 will never be duplicated and I don't think any single person changes that. That drop was happening regardless.

I agree with a lot of what you said, and I think Cena certainly was the absolute best case scenario for face of the company. They were going to have Lesnar as that face and that would've been brutally terrible as while he has a presence, he has no natural charisma.

Punk was their next best chance but he would not have had the mainstream appeal that a guy like Cena had. A big mistake WWE has made with Cena is no fault of his own and that's never finding at least one guy to treat as his equal. Every guy they build up (Punk excluded) they immediately had Cena bury. It's a mistake they made with Hogan too. During the glory years of wrestling, I think you can make the argument that guys like Rock, H, Austin, Taker, Angle etc were all on the same playing field. So if one of those guys lost, it didn't feel like a big deal because you knew they'd be back.

Long story short, I think wwe's biggest mistake has been not giving Cena a viable nemesis.

I also really don't put as much stock into ratings and PPV buys since WCW went under. There's no such thing as a guy "drawing" anymore. With no competition, the company itself is the draw, not the guys who comprise it. In other words, I don't think the guy at the top is much of an indicator of who's tuning in. At this point you have your core audience and that's not really going to change. If you're going to use that as criteria, then you have to immediately eliminate guys like Bret, Shawn and Taker from the argument and probably even the top 10 because they were the guys during the lowest period of wrestling.

[Stanford]

I'm not a huge Cena fan but I can't deny his greatness. The most important thing for wrestlers is making money and getting over. Cena has done both of those things better than anyone. I'll always say, he's done something that's never been done and likely never will be again: he is simultaneously the company's biggest heel and babyface. That's incredible. Add in the fact that he's consistently number one in Merch sales despite a flooded market.

And if you take away the business side of it, the casuals, marks and young audiences all care about what he's doing 100% of the time, and he delivers great matches in nearly 100% of big situations that call for it. To say he's maybe top 20 is just being a hater and/or a troll.

ETA: since someone brought up Flair, I must say Flair is one of my all time favorites. I think even he'd tell you he doesn't hold a candle to Cena in the ring. He's got him on promos (though Cena is about as good as anyone there too) but that's about it. Love Naitch, but he wrestled the same match for 30+ years.

OK, Bret

[skbucks1985]

I'm not a huge Cena fan but I can't deny his greatness. The most important thing for wrestlers is making money and getting over. Cena has done both of those things better than anyone. I'll always say, he's done something that's never been done and likely never will be again: he is simultaneously the company's biggest heel and babyface. That's incredible. Add in the fact that he's consistently number one in Merch sales despite a flooded market.

And if you take away the business side of it, the casuals, marks and young audiences all care about what he's doing 100% of the time, and he delivers great matches in nearly 100% of big situations that call for it. To say he's maybe top 20 is just being a hater and/or a troll.

ETA: since someone brought up Flair, I must say Flair is one of my all time favorites. I think even he'd tell you he doesn't hold a candle to Cena in the ring. He's got him on promos (though Cena is about as good as anyone there too) but that's about it. Love Naitch, but he wrestled the same match for 30+ years.

I think saying he's barely top 20 is ridiculous, but I also think its entirely fair to say that John Cena has been a failure as a centerpiece draw. The retorts to this would be that no one would've done better in that spot and he was the best person for the role and/or that the drops in business predated Cena. And some or all of those might be true. But the only things we can know for sure is what actually happened and what actually happened is that ratings have continued to steadily decrease since his run at the top (and have continued as he's receded the past 3+ years) and while the Rock-Cena matches did big business as a whole PPV business went down to the point that they basically got out of the PPV business.

If you're only using tv ratings as a barometer sure. But that period from 97-2000 will never be duplicated and I don't think any single person changes that. That drop was happening regardless.

I agree with a lot of what you said, and I think Cena certainly was the absolute best case scenario for face of the company. They were going to have Lesnar as that face and that would've been brutally terrible as while he has a presence, he has no natural charisma.

Punk was their next best chance but he would not have had the mainstream appeal that a guy like Cena had. A big mistake WWE has made with Cena is no fault of his own and that's never finding at least one guy to treat as his equal. Every guy they build up (Punk excluded) they immediately had Cena bury. It's a mistake they made with Hogan too. During the glory years of wrestling, I think you can make the argument that guys like Rock, H, Austin, Taker, Angle etc were all on the same playing field. So if one of those guys lost, it didn't feel like a big deal because you knew they'd be back.

Long story short, I think wwe's biggest mistake has been not giving Cena a viable nemesis.

I also really don't put as much stock into ratings and PPV buys since WCW went under. There's no such thing as a guy "drawing" anymore. With no competition, the company itself is the draw, not the guys who comprise it. In other words, I don't think the guy at the top is much of an indicator of who's tuning in. At this point you have your core audience and that's not really going to change. If you're going to use that as criteria, then you have to immediately eliminate guys like Bret, Shawn and Taker from the argument and probably even the top 10 because they were the guys during the lowest period of wrestling.

Let me just first say, I don't really care exactly where Cena ranks all-time. I think I had him at 5 or 6 in that WM era thing we did last year which is how I feel on that matter.

My point though is that top guys will always and should always be judged by how business performs during there tenure. And this is especially true with Vince as a guy that with the exception of a few years here and there has always had a very strong babyface at the top. I don't think Cena should be immuned from that and I don't immune Reigns from that either. The whole idea of the company as the star flies in the face of the way Cena has always been presented. If the company was the star, there would've a handful of guys with the same level of success over Cena's run on top but there hasn't been. He was always presented as the star above everyone else. And also, they tried making Cena a huge crossover star with the rap album and The Marine which the first one had a wide theatrical release. And these attempts didn't work.

Like I said, there's a really good argument that Cena was the best option and/or that the drops that occurred were inevitable and/or that anyone other than Cena would've seen an even bigger drop. But the only thing we can say with certainty is what happened.

[LLJ]

Cena bores me but he's clearly extremely reliable which is why the WWE handed him the keys. Got no problem with it.

[improper]

It's hard for me to call a guy the greatest of all time when he doesn't even get the reaction he's supposed to get. I think Austin is the GOAT. He put wrestling on the mainstream map and carried the company during its most profitable period.

I'd say top three are Austin, Rock, and Hogan. Cena at best would be fourth, and probably a spot or two lower. Honestly, I might put a guy like Triple H above him simply because Triple H still draws in a way that I don't think Cena does any more.

[Shaazzam]

No one made wrestling more mainstream than Hogan.

[Flames24Rulz]

It's hard for me to call a guy the greatest of all time when he doesn't even get the reaction he's supposed to get. I think Austin is the GOAT. He put wrestling on the mainstream map and carried the company during its most profitable period.

I'd say top three are Austin, Rock, and Hogan. Cena at best would be fourth, and probably a spot or two lower. Honestly, I might put a guy like Triple H above him simply because Triple H still draws in a way that I don't think Cena does any more.

That's my top three as well, but probably in a slightly different order. I think I'd have Hogan first, Austin second, and Rock third. Hogan changed the face of the entire industry in two different decades. His in-ring work was never the best, but his promos and the way he transitioned from being the biggest face in the entire business to the biggest heel in wrestling was unbelievable.

It's really a shame Cena never followed suit because I think that would absolutely help his claim to fame as the GOAT. I can't call Cena the greatest of all time, though, without having an extended period of time as a top heel.

[improper]

That's my top three as well, but probably in a slightly different order. I think I'd have Hogan first, Austin second, and Rock third. Hogan changed the face of the entire industry in two different decades. His in-ring work was never the best, but his promos and the way he transitioned from being the biggest face in the entire business to the biggest heel in wrestling was unbelievable.

It's really a shame Cena never followed suit because I think that would absolutely help his claim to fame as the GOAT. I can't call Cena the greatest of all time, though, without having an extended period of time as a top heel.

I can definitely see the argument for Hogan first, and in fact would consider putting him there myself. I'd definitely take him, Austin, and Rock over Cena any day of the week. All three of those guys, even today in non-wrestling roles, could draw better than Cena could even in his prime. You announce Austin for a show and you're going to sell tickets just on his presence alone even though the audience knows exactly what they're getting...a couple of stunners, chug some beers, a few middle fingers, hit the showers. Doesn't matter, because Austin is the most beloved figure in all of wrestling.

And yeah, it's probably at least partially the WWE's fault for what's become of Cena. They always refused to turn him heel after they made him the face of the company, and so he got stale. It didn't help that they weren't really interested in building anyone else up to his level, which meant he always ended up burying guys rather than helping them get to the next level. That resulted in the fans turning on Cena because he wasn't the guy they wanted (at least not the only guy they wanted) and because he always wins, which is boring for a face character.

WWE seems to have lost sight of the fact that faces are supposed to be underdogs. Even Austin, who looked nothing like a traditional underdog, functioned as one because he had the entire weight of the system against him (in kayfabe, obviously). People loved Austin because he rebelled against the system and his evil boss, and because they saw that boss constantly go out of his way to screw over the fan favorite. Faces need to lose sometimes. They need to lose feuds. They need to come up short. If that never happens, people are inevitably going to get sick of them. It also doesn't work when you try to manufacture adversity like WWE did with Reigns. Everyone knew he was their new golden boy, so when they tried to run the Austin shtick with him it felt ridiculous and underhanded.

Turning Cena heel now would be the best thing they could do for him and for them. It would renew interest in wrestling. Non-fans would tune in just because they heard Cena was a bad guy now just like non-fans started watching WCW to see Hulk Hogan as the heel. It might not kickstart another boom period, simply because WWE is so creatively bankrupt that I don't think they'd have any chance of hooking in new viewers and retaining them long-term, but it would at least spark an interest in the product again. It would also give Cena a chance to do something other than just going through the motions.

[Westside Gunn]

With his popularity with make a wish and the kids, I think its too late for that now.

Plus, does anyone remember Stone Cold's heel run? It didn't go for too long.

[LLJ]

Plus, does anyone remember Stone Cold's heel run? It didn't go for too long.

That heel run created one of the worst crowd chants in WWE history.

[Butch718]

Plus, does anyone remember Stone Cold's heel run? It didn't go for too long.

That heel run created one of the worst crowd chants in WWE history.

Which was awesome at the time.

[Butch718]

Plus, does anyone remember Stone Cold's heel run? It didn't go for too long.

I remember they had him hitting Lita with multiple chair shots in order for him to gain heat with the crowd. The crowd just didn't want to boo him.