WWE General Discussion II

[iMoreland]

Asuka has never impressed me. The roster wouldn't be hurt at all if she left.

Sure she's had some good matches here and there, but her run (especially in NXT) has been terrible. Her undefeated streak held everybody else down and booking was awful because of it.

[improper]

Asuka has never impressed me. The roster wouldn't be hurt at all if she left.

Sure she's had some good matches here and there, but her run (especially in NXT) has been terrible. Her undefeated streak held everybody else down and booking was awful because of it.

I disagree entirely. She got good to great matches out of basically everyone she worked with at a Takeover, including two great matches against Ember.

Not really sure who she held down. Ember's the only one I can really think of, as I do believe she should have won their second match, especially since Vince just completely screwed up her streak on the main roster anyway and made it feel meaningless. But, of course, no one knew that when she beat Ember the second time. I think most of us assumed WWE would do the smart thing and have her go into next year's 'Mania with the streak intact and put her against Rousey.

But, WWE being WWE, they basically never do the smart thing.

At any rate, no idea who you can really argue that she held down besides Ember. Certainly not Nia or Bayley, and considering Cross hasn't won the women's title since Asuka left, I don't think you can argue her either.

[improper]

The smartest way to book Asuka on the main roster, by the way, would have been to debut her as a face (impossible not to) and then had her win the women's title and slowly turn heel over the course of a year, going from hard-fought face wins to her just toying with the other women and beating the tar out of them. Then you build up Rousey as the big babyface and have her win the Rumble. She challenges Asuka, and then you build to their match by having them brutally attack each other several times with Asuka mostly getting the better of Rousey.

Then, when Rousey wins, it actually means something, because she won against the woman no one else was good enough to beat. And you actually use the streak to get someone over who needs it rather than just having Charlotte (who was the last person who needed it) end it in the most underwhelming way possible.

[Spens1]

Asuka has never impressed me. The roster wouldn't be hurt at all if she left.

Sure she's had some good matches here and there, but her run (especially in NXT) has been terrible. Her undefeated streak held everybody else down and booking was awful because of it.

you can't blame her for WWE being **** at booking though. The first thing they should have done is put a manager with her or had her cutting promos in Japanese (hell, this applies to Nakamura also).

[bestnamezRtaken]

The smartest way to book Asuka on the main roster, by the way, would have been to debut her as a face (impossible not to) and then had her win the women's title and slowly turn heel over the course of a year, going from hard-fought face wins to her just toying with the other women and beating the tar out of them. Then you build up Rousey as the big babyface and have her win the Rumble. She challenges Asuka, and then you build to their match by having them brutally attack each other several times with Asuka mostly getting the better of Rousey.

Then, when Rousey wins, it actually means something, because she won against the woman no one else was good enough to beat. And you actually use the streak to get someone over who needs it rather than just having Charlotte (who was the last person who needed it) end it in the most underwhelming way possible.

In Vince's mind, the marquee match in the women's division is Rousey v Charlotte for the unification of both women's titles.

But the smart thing would of been Asuka v Rousey, or even a triple threat match between all three women, that could of headlined WM. I think almost any combination of the three could of almost headlined WM if booked correctly.

[LLJ]

It doesn't matter whether you like Asuka or not, it's about knowing your worth. There's no doubt that she is a big name in the women's division and she has a strong fanbase. Honestly, if she's fighting the WWE over something, I hope she doesn't concede. There are two types of people--you either eat someone's **** and pretend to like it and hope you get rewarded for it, or you draw a line in the sand at some point. Because if you concede, you end up like Bayley or Sasha. Sasha for all her tough talk still smiles through gritted teeth over her treatment the past 2 years. Recall that Sasha was the most over woman in the WWE 2 years ago and her merch flew off the shelves. She SHOULD be treated better.

[Wo1verine]

Asuka has never impressed me. The roster wouldn't be hurt at all if she left.

Sure she's had some good matches here and there, but her run (especially in NXT) has been terrible. Her undefeated streak held everybody else down and booking was awful because of it.

Couldn't have picked many worse people when it came to handing a Goldberg like run.

She doesn't have a good look character wise and isn't intimidating at all IMO.

[LLJ]

The Goldberg run was by accident. The fact is the NXT women's division was really thin when she was in it and she was basically head and shoulders above every other woman in NXT at her time in terms of sheer speed and crispness of execution. If you actually watched those matches through 2016, she was moving circles around all the women. There was basically nobody else at the time who was worthy to be NXT women's champ until late in her run.

No, she's not big or fearsome in that way, but her sheer explosiveness and quickness in transitions was legit.

And she wasn't basically someone who plowed through people, the selling point was that she was just a flat out better wrestler and quicker than everyone else and would always find an answer to every problem in a match eventually. On the main roster, she still is probably the fastest woman in terms of footspeed. Watch how she runs the ropes vs everyone else. She goes from 0 to 50 in about 3 steps. Almost every woman jogs and prances through their rope running. It's amazing how many wrestling fans say they know wrestling and can't even see who's got real fundamentals or not.

The only similarity with Goldberg was the number of wins. It wasn't like she overpowered people in 3 minute matches. She'd have long matches which were tough but she'd always win.

[improper]

The Goldberg run was by accident. The fact is the NXT women's division was really thin when she was in it and she was basically head and shoulders above every other woman in NXT at her time in terms of sheer speed and crispness of execution. If you actually watched those matches through 2016, she was moving circles around all the women. There was basically nobody else at the time who was worthy to be NXT women's champ until late in her run.

No, she's not big or fearsome in that way, but her sheer explosiveness and quickness in transitions was legit.

And she wasn't basically someone who plowed through people, the selling point was that she was just a flat out better wrestler and quicker than everyone else and would always find an answer to every problem in a match eventually. On the main roster, she still is probably the fastest woman in terms of footspeed. Watch how she runs the ropes vs everyone else. She goes from 0 to 50 in about 3 steps. Almost every woman jogs and prances through their rope running. It's amazing how many wrestling fans say they know wrestling and can't even see who's got real fundamentals or not.

The only similarity with Goldberg was the number of wins. It wasn't like she overpowered people in 3 minute matches. She'd have long matches which were tough but she'd always win.

Yeah, I find it pretty shocking that people here complain about NXT booking one of the five to ten best female wrestlers in the entire world like she's one of the five to ten best female wrestlers in the entire world.

Asuka came in the most legit female talent WWE had every signed, and she was booked appropriately.

[LLJ]

Yeah, I find it pretty shocking that people here complain about NXT booking one of the five to ten best female wrestlers in the entire world like she's one of the five to ten best female wrestlers in the entire world.

Asuka came in the most legit female talent WWE had every signed, and she was booked appropriately.

It's not even about her winning every match. I actually don't think she cares about wins and losses. I do think she cares about having a platform to show herself at her best and not in overbooked matches where every single move is planned in advance by some producer and neutered so that she can't do an armbar or german suplex just because a Ronda or Brock is using those moves.

I realize not everyone here is about workrate, or even care at all about it. The several Carmella and Alexa fans clearly demonstrate this. But clearly she's someone who has still gotten herself over despite the language barrier (despite her losing a lot of heat of late due to being booked to look terrible) and she's gathered up a resume of very well received matches. This has to count for something.

At this point, though, I think she should really just leave if she is willing to take the financial hit. The WWE main roster isn't the right place for her, at least 50% WWE fans don't care about workrate, let alone women's wrestling, and the whole undefeated streak thing gives her a misplaced rep as being some female Goldberg to casual fans. Go to Japan again or show up on IMPACT under her original name and help a smaller company build up their women's division; the WWE clearly is more interested in pushing a certain brand of women's wrestling that she doesn't belong in.

Let Ronda clumsily judo toss her way through matches to being the top woman and have everyone think she's the absolute sh*t, while girls like Alexa and Carmella carry titles for 6 months a year while wrestling on TV about 5 times in that span.

[Wo1verine]

The Goldberg run was by accident. The fact is the NXT women's division was really thin when she was in it and she was basically head and shoulders above every other woman in NXT at her time in terms of sheer speed and crispness of execution. If you actually watched those matches through 2016, she was moving circles around all the women. There was basically nobody else at the time who was worthy to be NXT women's champ until late in her run.

No, she's not big or fearsome in that way, but her sheer explosiveness and quickness in transitions was legit.

And she wasn't basically someone who plowed through people, the selling point was that she was just a flat out better wrestler and quicker than everyone else and would always find an answer to every problem in a match eventually. On the main roster, she still is probably the fastest woman in terms of footspeed. Watch how she runs the ropes vs everyone else. She goes from 0 to 50 in about 3 steps. Almost every woman jogs and prances through their rope running. It's amazing how many wrestling fans say they know wrestling and can't even see who's got real fundamentals or not.

The only similarity with Goldberg was the number of wins. It wasn't like she overpowered people in 3 minute matches. She'd have long matches which were tough but she'd always win.

You wanna make money you need to appeal to the casuals and that's something Goldberg did even if that wasn't the plan from the start.
Goldberg sells because he has a good look - Hardcore fan can't stand him because he isn't a good performer but my eyes were glued to the tv when he was in the ring i loved his squash matches thought it was amazing stuff.

As a casual i enjoy watching the guys who by any means aren't considered good in the ring - Strowman, Lesnar, Goldberg, Ellsworth,Ambrose, Rousey and soon to be Cyborg etc ...

The point here is that many wrestlers have great talent but lack in other areas that arguably mean more in this day and age.

[Dominator83]

The Goldberg run was by accident. The fact is the NXT women's division was really thin when she was in it and she was basically head and shoulders above every other woman in NXT at her time in terms of sheer speed and crispness of execution. If you actually watched those matches through 2016, she was moving circles around all the women. There was basically nobody else at the time who was worthy to be NXT women's champ until late in her run.

No, she's not big or fearsome in that way, but her sheer explosiveness and quickness in transitions was legit.

And she wasn't basically someone who plowed through people, the selling point was that she was just a flat out better wrestler and quicker than everyone else and would always find an answer to every problem in a match eventually. On the main roster, she still is probably the fastest woman in terms of footspeed. Watch how she runs the ropes vs everyone else. She goes from 0 to 50 in about 3 steps. Almost every woman jogs and prances through their rope running. It's amazing how many wrestling fans say they know wrestling and can't even see who's got real fundamentals or not.

The only similarity with Goldberg was the number of wins. It wasn't like she overpowered people in 3 minute matches. She'd have long matches which were tough but she'd always win.

[Dominator83]

The Goldberg run was by accident. The fact is the NXT women's division was really thin when she was in it and she was basically head and shoulders above every other woman in NXT at her time in terms of sheer speed and crispness of execution. If you actually watched those matches through 2016, she was moving circles around all the women. There was basically nobody else at the time who was worthy to be NXT women's champ until late in her run.

No, she's not big or fearsome in that way, but her sheer explosiveness and quickness in transitions was legit.

And she wasn't basically someone who plowed through people, the selling point was that she was just a flat out better wrestler and quicker than everyone else and would always find an answer to every problem in a match eventually. On the main roster, she still is probably the fastest woman in terms of footspeed. Watch how she runs the ropes vs everyone else. She goes from 0 to 50 in about 3 steps. Almost every woman jogs and prances through their rope running. It's amazing how many wrestling fans say they know wrestling and can't even see who's got real fundamentals or not.

The only similarity with Goldberg was the number of wins. It wasn't like she overpowered people in 3 minute matches. She'd have long matches which were tough but she'd always win.

You wanna make money you need to appeal to the casuals and that's something Goldberg did even if that wasn't the plan from the start.
Goldberg sells because he has a good look - Hardcore fan can't stand him because he isn't a good performer but my eyes were glued to the tv when he was in the ring i loved his squash matches thought it was amazing stuff.

As a casual i enjoy watching the guys who by any means aren't considered good in the ring - Strowman, Lesnar, Goldberg, Ellsworth,Ambrose, Rousey and soon to be Cyborg etc ...

The point here is that many wrestlers have great talent but lack in other areas that arguably mean more in this day and age.

Unfortunately the bold is true on the big stage. Hulk Hogan, probably the biggest individual star in the history of the wrestling business, was crap in the ring. Steve Austin was ok in the ring but he was no Seth Rollins, AJ, or even a Chris Benoit level wrestler. Ditto John Cena (though i think hes a tad underrated because he has matches that tell a good story)

[improper]

Unfortunately the bold is true on the big stage. Hulk Hogan, probably the biggest individual star in the history of the wrestling business, was crap in the ring. Steve Austin was ok in the ring but he was no Seth Rollins, AJ, or even a Chris Benoit level wrestler. Ditto John Cena (though i think hes a tad underrated because he has matches that tell a good story)

Thing is, the industry has changed a great deal since the days when Hogan was a star, and it's changed some from when Austin was a star too. There was basically no one on the level of AJ Styles during Hogan's era, and the guys as talented as Styles were few and far between even during the Attitude Era.

However, work rate does matter more today than it did ten, twenty years ago. That's the direction the business is moving in. You can even see it by watching John Cena, a guy who used to do the Five Moves of Doom, but after the influx of extremely talented indie guys was forced to adjust his game and improve in the ring. He did, and he stayed relevant as a result. Remember his US Title Open Challenge tour? That was largely him proving he could still go against top indie guys. It was him showing he was capable of adjusting his offensive moveset a bit to keep with the times.

I think one of the main reasons Reigns is bombing so hard is that they're not doing something similar with him. A big complaint is his ring work, but instead of having him work on adding moves and making his matches more varied, they doubled down and he does less moves than ever. Fans just expect more from guys in this era where half the roster can do the types of moves people in previous generations couldn't even have dreamed of.

[Stanford]

Steve Austin>>>>>Seth Rollins in the ring.

[Stanford]

[Maria Kanellis has taken issue with recent comments made by Charlotte Flair. In her recent campaign against Carmella, where the term "Diva" is being used as an insult, Charlotte has caught the attention of a former legitimate "WWE Diva." Kanellis took to social media this week to express her issues with the usage of the term and how she is proud to be a former WWE Diva.

Not really helping the cause here. Theres an ocean between Charlotte and Becky, and Kelly Kelly and Maria.

[skbucks1985]

I'm not a fan of Roman, but I don't think his match quality is the issue. I've never seen a Reigns match where the crowd turned against the match, I've seen matches where the crowd was hostile from the beginning, the recent match with Jinder is an example of this. But I've never seen a Reigns match where the crowd was initially into it and then turned on it by the end. And obviously matches where he gets booed because he won do not count towards this.

[skbucks1985]

[Maria Kanellis has taken issue with recent comments made by Charlotte Flair. In her recent campaign against Carmella, where the term "Diva" is being used as an insult, Charlotte has caught the attention of a former legitimate "WWE Diva." Kanellis took to social media this week to express her issues with the usage of the term and how she is proud to be a former WWE Diva.

Not really helping the cause here. Theres an ocean between Charlotte and Becky, and Kelly Kelly and Maria.

The women's roster, top-to-bottom, is better than its ever been. The median woman from that era is not nearly as capable as they are today. But I don't think it was entirely because of that. They were given 2-3 minute matches and the characters were entirely one-dimensional. For example, Kelly Kelly was babyface hot girl and Maryse was heel hot girl and basically the difference between them was that Kelly Kelly smiled and Maryse didn't. The aforementioned Maria was the dumb girl.

I get where Maria's coming from, because while I don't think they'd be as good as the woman are today, if they were given the time to wrestle and given character development, which although it can be uneven at times today, its still leaps-and-bounds better than it was at that time, the gap wouldn't be perceived to be as great as it is.

[Stanford]

Just saying, as a work insult, it lands.

I do think it's a stretch to say that Kelly Kelly and Maria fought for what the women are receiving now. It was unfortunate what they had to go through, but you could have replaced them with any hot girl wrestlers and we'd be in the same place. If Nikki Bella or Beth Phoenix made the same claim, I would be more inclined to agree with them. I think Ronda Rousey and Triple H deserve most of the credit.

[skbucks1985]

If Charlotte was a heel, that'd be one thing. But because she's a babyface, what she says is supposed to be true and the audience is supposed to agree with her.

I'm not necessarily saying they fought for what the women are receiving. But rather that they're perceived as far inferior to the women of today and if they had been given the opportunities that the women to day do, the gap wouldn't be seen as nearly as wide.

And strictly for Maria, in terms of in-ring 2-3 minute matches may have been all that was worth doing with her. But, based on her time in ROH, NJPW and TNA she's clearly shown that she has far more range as a character than she was able to show in her first WWE run. And so she may be more sensitive to the criticism of her era than others because more than others she didn't feel she was utilized to nearly her potential.