whysoserious wrote:Scott Hall wrote:Texas Chuck wrote:I mean I think we all get Hogan is the biggest draw. But he was boring. His promos were boring. His in-ring work was terrible and that's generous. Major props on him for figuring out how to get over, but should the GOAT be the most over guy or the best guy?
Brittney Spears has sold a lot more records than Radiohead. She ain't better.
For me the best needs to be able to work--Flair could do that. He's not HBK or Steamboat or Daniel Bryan but he could work. They need to be able to cut a great promo--he could do that. Maybe he's not peak Rocky or Jericho, but he could talk. He needs a great character and Flair had one of the best. He led stables, he was arguably the GOAT heel, but he could work babyface if need be.
Maybe he isn't, but Hogan isn't either unless your criteria is just money. Which is true if you are Vince but probably shouldn't be if you are a fan.
And maybe I don't give Jericho enough credit. Maybe he should be considered the GOAT over Flair. But man I got to be entertained and that's why Hogan and Taker are forever off the table for me despite probably being the biggest two names. Both of them just so boring.
"Hogan was boring"
"His promos were boring"
"His in-ring work was terrible and that's genrous"
I don't mean to sound mean but I couldn't read the rest of your post after that because clearly you aren't being objective
and still using your own misinformed personal opinion as some reasoning as to why he's not.
I mean really what do you want me to say to that? and take this seriously?
Oh Hogan was "Boring" I mean jeez you don't become the biggest draw in history because you were "boring"
Millions of people around the world would laugh at that comment.
His promos were boring? yeah that's why even non wrestling fans know his catchphrases and people have been
impersonating them for 35 years.
His in ring work was "terrible".... oh lord he was trained by Hiro Matsuda. Hogan is arguably the greatest "seller" in
history and has some of the best psychology ever his match with the Rock is used as a teaching tool in psychology by
Dr. Tom Pritchard for his students.
Most of the "hOgAn cOuLdN't wReStLe" crowd is only going off what they saw in his WCW and late WWF years. If
you watch his matches in Japan or
his late 70's to early 80's matches you will see Hogan have almost a completely
different moveset and see that he can work technical and submission style matches.
The same thing goes for todays wrestlers... most WWE guys want to wrestle in Japan because they can be themselves
and aren't restricted to WWE style which is more restrictive because of their grueling travel schedule.
All you gotta do is look up Hogan vs. Great Muta in Japan on Youtube to see if Hogan can "wrestle" or not.
Not to jump in this convo late and i'm not really supporting either Flair or Hogan in this debate but you've mentioned a few times that Flair was just okay working but and dismissed people that supported Flair as being people born in the late 60's or 70's. Flairs peak ring work was in this era for sure but then you want to give Hogan credit for his ring work back in the 70's.
Flair was actually a very good worker. He was a heel and put on regular one hour long matches. You talk about selling, Flair sold like crazy to make his opponents look good.
Flair and Hogan are both on the Mt Rushmore. GOAT is subjective but Hogan was the biggest face of that 80's era and Flair was the biggest heel of the 70's and 80's. Hogan had a huge run later on turning heel while WCW did nothing with Flair. Flair came back to WWE with a great run with Evolution.
For me, neither would get GOAT status, they had their strengths and weaknesses. Neither was the total package or five tool player. Those to me are Austin, Rock, Jericho, HBK, CM Punk and i'd include Bret Hart (but that's a personal choice). I'd also argue that Eddie might need some consideration amongst that group.
What I'm saying is Flair is critically overrated in the ring and Hogan is severely underrated in the ring...
Hogan haters/skeptics/critics use this "he couldn't wrestle" narrative most people that say this are casual fans
or are just going off their memory of what they remember in 80's WWF and 90's WCW without looking at context,
acknowledging his bangers or are privy to what he did pre WWF.
Thanks to Youtube and WWE Network we are now able to watch a lot of Hogans non WWE/WCW matches. What you
find is almost a completely different worker with a vastly different moveset. This guy was trained by Hiro Matsuda
and won over the respect of Japanese Wrestling fans and the average wrestling fan will tell you he can't wrestle because
they saw his WM 3 match with Andre.
So where was that Hogan in WWF and WCW? The 80's WWF schedule may have been the most crazy wrestling schedule
in history these guys worked 6-7 days a week and wrestled sometimes twice on Sundays. As a promoter the goal is to
make money and having this phenom that is driving the industry to new heights wrestle 40 mins a night and do every
move in his arsenal and take a bunch of bumps doesn't make sense.
Also back then the mindset of the promoter and psychology was different. Hogan was classified as a "Big Man" so
he should work like a Big man also because of his size it wouldn't be "believable" to work against smaller guys that
are great workers like Ricky Steamboat, Bret Hart, Dynamite Kid etc.
Also since Hogan was somewhat of a late bloomer Vince wanted to protect his lightning in the bottle asset since
he was in his mid to late 30's when he started peaking. Most of Hogans notable WWF feuds and matches are with
monsters like Andre, Bundy, Studd, Kamala, Bossman, Earthquake, Sid, Yokozuna etc. even guys like Shawn Michaels
and Bret Hart would have a hard time getting great matches out of those guys. When you wrestle super heavyweights
your moveset becomes severely limited and there is only so many moves you can do and then add the restrictive WWF
style on top of that.
Hogan then adjusted and became an expert at the nuances of wrestling like working the crowd, psychology, timing,
the importance of selling, facial reactions and the importance of look. He finally works with a smaller guy in Randy
Savage and they have a great match at WM 5, he literally carried Ultimate Warrior step by step to a classic match
at WM 6, He hadn't had a singles match in almost 2 years in his late 40's and was thrown into a loop with the crowd
reaction at WM 18 against Rock and they turned out an all-time classic.
Look at Hogans match against The Great Muta at the Tokyo Dome in 1993 basically right between his WWF run and
WCW run he was 40 at that point and he completely adjusts his style and has a great match with the Great Muta.
And I bring this all up again not because I think Hogan is the greatest worker of all-time but to bring it up to
all these people that claim "Hogan couldn't wrestle" and just don't have educated eyes or are privy to his mainstream
stuff.
As for Ric Flair if you watch a Flair match from 70's, 80's, 90's or 2000's they're all pretty much the same. I asked
earlier for someone to name me all the classic Ric Flair matches and I got crickets. Ric Flair did not have some
great impressive moveset and yes he could wrestle long 1 hour matches but a lot of them was being in headlocks
for 10 minutes and wooing to fans outside the ring. Flair was great for his time and probably was the GOAT during
the late 70's-early 80's but he has long been surpassed in the in-ring department. Outside of mic skills/promos
which is highly subjective there is not one category Flair is the GOAT in.
As for Austin and Rock they aren't "5 tool guys" as they aren't even close to being elite in ring performers. The
other guys you mention weren't big draws which is why you barely see any of them on a lot of Mount Rushmore
lists let alone in the GOAT convo. Like I mentioned before this isn't a personal favs list it's an objective GOAT debate.
