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Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV

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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#21 » by zzaj » Mon Mar 3, 2025 1:36 am

JasonStern wrote:I have no idea how people think that we overpaid for Deni. He is our best player.


He's been the best player for most of the season--or at least once he got comfortable.

I don't see it as an overpay, personally. I liked the trade then, and I like the trade now.

I think a lot of people see the timing of adding a player like Deni to an underdeveloped roster as a bit of a head-scratcher. Of course, Cronin likely doesn't see the roster as underdeveloped. He obviously thinks it can compete now.
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#22 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 3, 2025 2:12 am

zzaj wrote:
JasonStern wrote:I have no idea how people think that we overpaid for Deni. He is our best player.

He's been the best player for most of the season--or at least once he got comfortable.

I don't see it as an overpay, personally. I liked the trade then, and I like the trade now.

I think a lot of people see the timing of adding a player like Deni to an underdeveloped roster as a bit of a head-scratcher. Of course, Cronin likely doesn't see the roster as underdeveloped. He obviously thinks it can compete now.

I just think you hit the nail on the head in so many ways.

Deni has been the best player on the roster after his really pathetic start.

He has a declining contract that will become more valuable as time goes on ESPECIALLY if he continues to improve. And this was for two late FRPs. He should be able to (easily) net that back if push comes to shove.

And the last point is the dagger in the post. Cronin clearly thought this roster was one piece away from competing. No words.
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#23 » by DusterBuster » Mon Mar 3, 2025 4:56 am

dckingsfan wrote:
zzaj wrote:
JasonStern wrote:I have no idea how people think that we overpaid for Deni. He is our best player.

He's been the best player for most of the season--or at least once he got comfortable.

I don't see it as an overpay, personally. I liked the trade then, and I like the trade now.

I think a lot of people see the timing of adding a player like Deni to an underdeveloped roster as a bit of a head-scratcher. Of course, Cronin likely doesn't see the roster as underdeveloped. He obviously thinks it can compete now.

I just think you hit the nail on the head in so many ways.

Deni has been the best player on the roster after his really pathetic start.

He has a declining contract that will become more valuable as time goes on ESPECIALLY if he continues to improve. And this was for two late FRPs. He should be able to (easily) net that back if push comes to shove.

And the last point is the dagger in the post. Cronin clearly thought this roster was one piece away from competing. No words.


Deni’s “pathetic” start was a mix of new team chemistry (it’s rarely a day 1 perfect mix even for All Stars) and **** coaching. Billups didn’t know wtf to do with Deni until 20+ games in and figured out what his role should be. Once that happened, the team started clicking.

Ad much as we want to **** on GMs and ownership and coaching about this situation, the “problem” is the players. Deni and Camara are too good. They’re better than we or other fans give them credit for. They’re not “stars” currently, or not what the “advanced stats” project them out to be long term… but they’re **** impact players. The real tanking teams don’t have one impact player, let alone two…

Now, impact player does not equal franchise player. That said, both Deni and Tou are on a trajectory that - advanced stats be damned - is something you don’t ignore…

Side tangent… **** advanced stats and trust your gut. If you’ve watched the NBA long enough, you can tell guys who have “it”, for lack of a better word. Not really **** advanced stats, but context and balance matters…. If you see someone improving on their game each year in a meaningful way… that’s a good indicator of future performance. So take the advanced stats, if someone is 20% better than another player on a datapoint, that’s good to know, but it’s not the end all be all.

Tangent over: so for Tou and Deni, I know their age, I know what they “project” to be, but if a player keeps improving their game year after year, don’t put a cap on what YOU think they can be. Only cap it when they cap out and stop improving.

I used the Dame example and Wiz gave like 6 (perfectly reasonable) reasons why I was wrong… but, the point I was trying to make was the above. Don’t limit, discount or cap a player when they continuously improve an aspect of their game year after year. Once they stop or show signs of slowing improvement, then you can say “he’s probably pretty much this X player”.

For Tou, people say he’s gonna cap out at a 18ppg player… max 20…. Ok, why? Why can’t he be an anchor? Well he was a 4yr 23yo rookie. Ok, and?

This team is too wonky and weird. A ton of agendas conflicting with one another. Cronin and Schmitz and to lose for lottery, Billups wants to win for his career after Portland as a Head Coach, the players are almost all sub-25 and want to prove they belong in the league and like winning or competing against the best…. So it’s just a **** -ed up mix to be a full lottery team.
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#24 » by zzaj » Mon Mar 3, 2025 5:23 am

DusterBuster wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
zzaj wrote:He's been the best player for most of the season--or at least once he got comfortable.

I don't see it as an overpay, personally. I liked the trade then, and I like the trade now.

I think a lot of people see the timing of adding a player like Deni to an underdeveloped roster as a bit of a head-scratcher. Of course, Cronin likely doesn't see the roster as underdeveloped. He obviously thinks it can compete now.

I just think you hit the nail on the head in so many ways.

Deni has been the best player on the roster after his really pathetic start.

He has a declining contract that will become more valuable as time goes on ESPECIALLY if he continues to improve. And this was for two late FRPs. He should be able to (easily) net that back if push comes to shove.

And the last point is the dagger in the post. Cronin clearly thought this roster was one piece away from competing. No words.


Deni’s “pathetic” start was a mix of new team chemistry (it’s rarely a day 1 perfect mix even for All Stars) and **** coaching. Billups didn’t know wtf to do with Deni until 20+ games in and figured out what his role should be. Once that happened, the team started clicking.

Ad much as we want to **** on GMs and ownership and coaching about this situation, the “problem” is the players. Deni and Camara are too good. They’re better than we or other fans give them credit for. They’re not “stars” currently, or not what the “advanced stats” project them out to be long term… but they’re **** impact players. The real tanking teams don’t have one impact player, let alone two…

Now, impact player does not equal franchise player. That said, both Deni and Tou are on a trajectory that - advanced stats be damned - is something you don’t ignore…

Side tangent… **** advanced stats and trust your gut. If you’ve watched the NBA long enough, you can tell guys who have “it”, for lack of a better word. Not really **** advanced stats, but context and balance matters…. If you see someone improving on their game each year in a meaningful way… that’s a good indicator of future performance. So take the advanced stats, if someone is 20% better than another player on a datapoint, that’s good to know, but it’s not the end all be all.

Tangent over: so for Tou and Deni, I know their age, I know what they “project” to be, but if a player keeps improving their game year after year, don’t put a cap on what YOU think they can be. Only cap it when they cap out and stop improving.

I used the Dame example and Wiz gave like 6 (perfectly reasonable) reasons why I was wrong… but, the point I was trying to make was the above. Don’t limit, discount or cap a player when they continuously improve an aspect of their game year after year. Once they stop or show signs of slowing improvement, then you can say “he’s probably pretty much this X player”.

For Tou, people say he’s gonna cap out at a 18ppg player… max 20…. Ok, why? Why can’t he be an anchor? Well he was a 4yr 23yo rookie. Ok, and?

This team is too wonky and weird. A ton of agendas conflicting with one another. Cronin and Schmitz and to lose for lottery, Billups wants to win for his career after Portland as a Head Coach, the players are almost all sub-25 and want to prove they belong in the league and like winning or competing against the best…. So it’s just a **** -ed up mix to be a full lottery team.


I don't really know what "****" means when you use it, but I sure enjoy trying to figure it out! :lol:
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#25 » by DusterBuster » Mon Mar 3, 2025 6:08 am

zzaj wrote:
DusterBuster wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:I just think you hit the nail on the head in so many ways.

Deni has been the best player on the roster after his really pathetic start.

He has a declining contract that will become more valuable as time goes on ESPECIALLY if he continues to improve. And this was for two late FRPs. He should be able to (easily) net that back if push comes to shove.

And the last point is the dagger in the post. Cronin clearly thought this roster was one piece away from competing. No words.


Deni’s “pathetic” start was a mix of new team chemistry (it’s rarely a day 1 perfect mix even for All Stars) and **** coaching. Billups didn’t know wtf to do with Deni until 20+ games in and figured out what his role should be. Once that happened, the team started clicking.

As much as we want to **** on GMs and ownership and coaching about this situation, the “problem” is the players. Deni and Camara are too good. They’re better than we or other fans give them credit for. They’re not “stars” currently, or not what the “advanced stats” project them out to be long term… but they’re **** impact players. The real tanking teams don’t have one impact player, let alone two…

Now, impact player does not equal franchise player. That said, both Deni and Tou are on a trajectory that - advanced stats be damned - is something you don’t ignore…

Side tangent… **** advanced stats and trust your gut. If you’ve watched the NBA long enough, you can tell guys who have “it”, for lack of a better word. Not really **** advanced stats, but context and balance matters…. If you see someone improving on their game each year in a meaningful way… that’s a good indicator of future performance. So take the advanced stats, if someone is 20% better than another player on a datapoint, that’s good to know, but it’s not the end all be all.

Tangent over: so for Tou and Deni, I know their age, I know what they “project” to be, but if a player keeps improving their game year after year, don’t put a cap on what YOU think they can be. Only cap it when they cap out and stop improving.

I used the Dame example and Wiz gave like 6 (perfectly reasonable) reasons why I was wrong… but, the point I was trying to make was the above. Don’t limit, discount or cap a player when they continuously improve an aspect of their game year after year. Once they stop or show signs of slowing improvement, then you can say “he’s probably pretty much this X player”.

For Tou, people say he’s gonna cap out at a 18ppg player… max 20…. Ok, why? Why can’t he be an anchor? Well he was a 4yr 23yo rookie. Ok, and?

This team is too wonky and weird. A ton of agendas conflicting with one another. Cronin and Schmitz and to lose for lottery, Billups wants to win for his career after Portland as a Head Coach, the players are almost all sub-25 and want to prove they belong in the league and like winning or competing against the best…. So it’s just a **** -ed up mix to be a full lottery team.


I don't really know what "****" means when you use it, but I sure enjoy trying to figure it out! :lol:


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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#26 » by DaVoiceMaster » Mon Mar 3, 2025 7:23 am

Clingan looked like a total **** tonight. Every time they put the camera on him, he had this stupid expression on his face. He really annoys me quite often.
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#27 » by monopoman » Mon Mar 3, 2025 7:51 am

I could see a world where Deni is our best player, even if Shaedon and Scoot develop into more of what they are meant to be in the long term.

He just pulled off a stat line that has only been done by 4 other players and three of those are truly some of the best to ever play, and to make it more impressive he might develop even more Deni is still just 24 years old.

According to the Sport5 reporter, Yoav Modai:
Deni Avdija is the 5th player in NBA's history to record 30+ points, 12+ rebounds, 10+ assists, with 13 field goal attempts or less.
He is the 5th NBA player to do it after: Wilt Chamberlain, Nikola Jokic, Magic Johnson, and Domantas Sabonis.
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#28 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 3, 2025 3:54 pm

monopoman wrote:I could see a world where Deni is our best player, even if Shaedon and Scoot develop into more of what they are meant to be in the long term.

He just pulled off a stat line that has only been done by 4 other players and three of those are truly some of the best to ever play, and to make it more impressive he might develop even more Deni is still just 24 years old.

According to the Sport5 reporter, Yoav Modai:
Deni Avdija is the 5th player in NBA's history to record 30+ points, 12+ rebounds, 10+ assists, with 13 field goal attempts or less.
He is the 5th NBA player to do it after: Wilt Chamberlain, Nikola Jokic, Magic Johnson, and Domantas Sabonis.

Damn, that is some pretty rarified air. I saw a comment that other players love to play with Deni as he shares the ball... interesting.
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#29 » by Wizenheimer » Mon Mar 3, 2025 6:55 pm

maybe Avdija has managed to land in a scouting vortex that keeps other teams from seeing him

so, Avdija grabs a defensive rebound or gets a steal...is there a single doubt about what he's going to do? He's going to turn around, go full turbo, and charge down the floor until the other team stops him. And if he gets inside of the 3 point arc without being stopped, he's going to the hoop. That's what he'll do 10 out of 10 times. And every time he did that in the 2nd half it seemed to come as a surprise to the Cavs

that's not to say that stopping a 230 lb guy running full steam ahead is easy. And he's got just enough wiggle to avoid most guys brave enough to get in taking-a-charge position. I think it was Hunter last night who got flattened and didn't appreciate it. Avdija is a basketball version of Larry Csonka.

by the way, I can't recall saying that the price paid for Avdija was an overpay. I have said it was a steep price and it likely was, depending on where that 2028 first lands

I agree with some of the optimistic sentiment being expressed here. I would really love to see the Blazers give a full season experiment to a Scoot-Sharpe-Camara-Avdija-Clingan starting lineup, especially if it meant that Simons-Ayton-Grant had all been sent packing. As long as those three guys are Blazers, my optimism is heavily muted. If those three are day 1 starters next season, I won't even watch
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#30 » by dckingsfan » Mon Mar 3, 2025 7:25 pm

Wizenheimer wrote:maybe Avdija has managed to land in a scouting vortex that keeps other teams from seeing him

so, Avdija grabs a defensive rebound or gets a steal...is there a single doubt about what he's going to do? He's going to turn around, go full turbo, and charge down the floor until the other team stops him. And if he gets inside of the 3 point arc without being stopped, he's going to the hoop. That's what he'll do 10 out of 10 times. And every time he did that in the 2nd half it seemed to come as a surprise to the Cavs

that's not to say that stopping a 230 lb guy running full steam ahead is easy. And he's got just enough wiggle to avoid most guys brave enough to get in taking-a-charge position. I think it was Hunter last night who got flattened and didn't appreciate it. Avdija is a basketball version of Larry Csonka.

by the way, I can't recall saying that the price paid for Avdija was an overpay. I have said it was a steep price and it likely was, depending on where that 2028 first lands

I agree with some of the optimistic sentiment being expressed here. I would really love to see the Blazers give a full season experiment to a Scoot-Sharpe-Camara-Avdija-Clingan starting lineup, especially if it meant that Simons-Ayton-Grant had all been sent packing. As long as those three guys are Blazers, my optimism is heavily muted. If those three are day 1 starters next season, I won't even watch

Agreed with all of this. One more point, when the Blazers run with him they are unstoppable on the break. When they sit back, it is a disaster when Avdija runs into the triple team.
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#31 » by Walton1one » Mon Mar 3, 2025 7:55 pm

by the way, I can't recall saying that the price paid for Avdija was an overpay. I have said it was a steep price and it likely was, depending on where that 2028 first lands


2029 1st - 2nd best b\t POR, BOS & MIL

A lot of factors still to be determined on whether POR paid too much or too little.

POR gave up (1) lower lottery pick, which turned out to be Bub Carrington, who at 19yrs old, ranks 8th on the current rookie ladder

8. Bub Carrington, Washington Wizards

Season stats: 9.1 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 3.9 apg
Last Ladder: No. 7
Draft pick: No. 14

Delivered a clunker vs. the Nets after a seven-game stretch of 14.4 ppg, 4.6 rpg and 5.1 apg. “One of the things he does really well is help us get organized,” coach Brian Keefe says. “Now he is making great reads.”


The 2029 pick is TBD, too far out to know for sure, but the chances are both MIL & BOS could be in\facing rebuild by then

Jaylen Brown will be 32, on last year of deal making $65 million :o
Jayson Tatum will be 30, making $67 million with 1yr left at $71 million

If new ownership doesn't do a salary cap reboot in the next few years (and even if they do) a team with Brown\Tatum i their early 30's would still be fairly good I would wager? But will both be on the team still by then?

MIL is another matter
Giannis would be 34, if he is even on the team
Dame would be 38, same as above

This team WILL be in rebuild, that pick looks to be valuable

Wildcard is POR. Most likely given current trajectory they should be at worst a middling team by then? Maybe playoffs\maybe not depending on the year?

A lot can happen before then, but that 2nd best of pick, probably will be a late lotto\mid teens pick?

So Carrington + that player = Deni (plus factoring if POR can resign him, otherwise you are talking a 4yr rental). We will not count the (2) 2nd's in the equation, not Brogdon, since he did not net WAS anything of value and will likely walk as a FA

Deni will be a UFA in 28/29, provided he plays at this rate, his salary in his LY (27/28) is $11.9mil, he will be 27 years old. I think POR is capped at 175% (Bird Right's). 175% is $21 million, so how much more would POR have to come up with UNDER the salary cap to pay him above that amount

They will have large deals for Camara (up in 27/28), Sharpe (RFA in 26/27), Henderson (RFA 27/28) + Clingan (RFA in 28/29) on the books and possible 1st round picks in some\all of 25\26\27\28 (could be lotto if CHI issue is solved by then) and then you have the potential contracts for Simons & Ayton, maybe RW3.

I think it should be manageable? But who knows if Joe pays Simons a contract like Grant's or Ayton for that matter? I would not put it past him to do that, after all he has already done so before.

What are Bird rights?
Under the “Bird exception,” a team can exceed the salary cap to re-sign its own free agents at an amount up to the maximum salary. A qualifying player must play three seasons for the same team continuously to obtain “Bird rights,” which are named as such because the Boston Celtics were the first team allowed to exceed the salary cap to re-sign one of their own players.

There is also the “early Bird exception,” which enables a team to re-sign its own free agents if they played for the team for some or all of the previous two seasons. The team can offer up to the greater of 105% of the average player salary for the prior season or a 175% raise on the player’s previous salary.

Lastly, a team can still re-sign its own free agent who neither has Bird nor early Bird rights, albeit with more restrictions on the player’s salary.
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#32 » by JasonStern » Mon Mar 3, 2025 8:25 pm

Rough loss. Thought we had that one.

DusterBuster wrote:Deni’s “pathetic” start was a mix of new team chemistry (it’s rarely a day 1 perfect mix even for All Stars)


Don't tell Tim this. He has an article claiming that building team chemistry through cohesion and repetition is a myth; adopting a new system, earning teammates trust, and learning their traits comes instantly. Trade everyone - especially those under 23.

But Deni won me over. In comparison - depending on how you value a 32 year old Malcom Brogdon, what we sent out was basically what we sent out for Covington. We won the trade, especially considering his contract.
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#33 » by Wizenheimer » Mon Mar 3, 2025 8:28 pm

Walton1one wrote:Deni will be a UFA in 28/29, provided he plays at this rate, his salary in his LY (27/28) is $11.9mil, he will be 27 years old. I think POR is capped at 175% (Bird Right's). 175% is $21 million, so how much more would POR have to come up with UNDER the salary cap to pay him above that amount


the max raise the Blazers can give Avdija in an extension is 140% of his current/previous salary. I can't believe Avdija would accept any extension. That's the downside of his current deal. Portland was always going to have to see him being UFA

however, if he becomes UFA then Portland can max him out with 30% of the salary cap in 2028. If the cap increases 10% a year it could be in the 185M range by then and his base salary could be over 50M
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#34 » by Walton1one » Mon Mar 3, 2025 8:32 pm

Wizenheimer wrote:
Walton1one wrote:Deni will be a UFA in 28/29, provided he plays at this rate, his salary in his LY (27/28) is $11.9mil, he will be 27 years old. I think POR is capped at 175% (Bird Right's). 175% is $21 million, so how much more would POR have to come up with UNDER the salary cap to pay him above that amount


the max raise the Blazers can give Avdija in an extension is 140% of his current/previous salary. I can't believe Avdija would accept any extension. That's the downside of his current deal. Portland was always going to have to see him being UFA

however, if he becomes UFA then Portland can max him out with 30% of the salary cap in 2028. If the cap increases 10% a year it could be in the 185M range by then and his base salary could be over 50M


Yeah, I wasn't sure on that. This is the one caveat about Deni. Did you pay (2) 1st's for a rental? Then this deal does not look so good, even if Carrington & 29' player don't turn out to be anything special.
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#35 » by Wizenheimer » Tue Mar 4, 2025 1:09 am

Walton1one wrote:
Wizenheimer wrote:
Walton1one wrote:Deni will be a UFA in 28/29, provided he plays at this rate, his salary in his LY (27/28) is $11.9mil, he will be 27 years old. I think POR is capped at 175% (Bird Right's). 175% is $21 million, so how much more would POR have to come up with UNDER the salary cap to pay him above that amount


the max raise the Blazers can give Avdija in an extension is 140% of his current/previous salary. I can't believe Avdija would accept any extension. That's the downside of his current deal. Portland was always going to have to see him being UFA

however, if he becomes UFA then Portland can max him out with 30% of the salary cap in 2028. If the cap increases 10% a year it could be in the 185M range by then and his base salary could be over 50M


Yeah, I wasn't sure on that. This is the one caveat about Deni. Did you pay (2) 1st's for a rental? Then this deal does not look so good, even if Carrington & 29' player don't turn out to be anything special.


unless Avdija becomes a high-level all-star in the next couple of seasons, he won't be getting a max (although with Cronin you never know). I think the Blazers will probably have the leverage to re-sign him and/or no other team will ave sufficient cap-space. But there is a possibility he leaves. The bad thing about that is that if he does sign with another team is that the Blazers would be giving up their 2028 second round pick 2 months after he plays his last game for Portland; their 2029 first round pick a year after he leaves,; and their 2030 second 2 years after he leaves. That will sting
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Re: Game 60: Portland vs Cleveland 12:30pm Chargetv, KUNP and NBATV 

Post#36 » by monopoman » Tue Mar 4, 2025 4:30 am

One aspect that they probably liked about Deni is that contract, there is a high chance this team gets sold in the next few years. Having a quality player on a contract that good makes the entire team look more valuable to any potential buyer.

One thing that looks bad when buying a team is bad contracts like say Ayton or something, but young guys with high potential or that are already quite good that are either on rookie deals or on insane value contracts like Deni are exactly what you want to sell a team.

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