Joel Freeland

[d-train]

The stats I quoted above are per-100 possessions, not per game or per 48 minutes, so pace is neutralized as a factor and Joel's advantage remains.

And while Oberto's Spurs are a better rebounding team, their rebounding rate with him on the court is only 51.4%, while the Blazers are 50.6% with Joel. Without Oberto, the Spurs are 50.1%, while the Blazers without Joel are only 46.8%. This means that Joel influences the Blazers' rebounding more than Oberto does. Yes, the Spurs are a good rebounding team, but without him on the floor they're still pretty good, while Portland with Joel is nearly as good as San Antonio with Oberto, but far, far worse without him.

I'll agree that Oberto is more of a natural PF, to compare them, favoring Oberto, and then saying it's unfair to compare them isn't really a great point.

I'm not saying it isn't fair to compare them. I'll compare them and take Oberto, a PF, and play him at center before I'd play Joel.

So, your stats are measuring scoring efficiency rather than straight scoring. Still, the numbers are meaningless unless you look at what is happening on the other side of the court. Essentially, you can't look at scoring efficiency unless you are benchmarking that with what the other team is doing as well. Let's get all the numbers out and I'm sure we'll get a better comparison.

As for rebounding, your numbers prove Joel is getting his stats on a terrible rebounding team. Oberto is getting good rebounding numbers on a team that gets more rebounds than their opponent does and with other good rebounders on his team.

[mojomarc]

So, your stats are measuring scoring efficiency rather than straight scoring. Still, the numbers are meaningless unless you look at what is happening on the other side of the court. Essentially, you can't look at scoring efficiency unless you are benchmarking that with what the other team is doing as well. Let's get all the numbers out and I'm sure we'll get a better comparison.

Are you really trying to suggest that the level of competition in the NBA's Western Conference over the course of half an NBA season is so different that the stats don't tell the story? Fine--what stats do you want to see to be convinced, because otherwise this is pointless and you're simply wasting time naysaying because you have yet to bring a lick of evidence other than your opinion to the table here.

As for rebounding, your numbers prove Joel is getting his stats on a terrible rebounding team. Oberto is getting good rebounding numbers on a team that gets more rebounds than their opponent does and with other good rebounders on his team.

No, it doesn't. What it shows is that Joel being on the court is enough to make Portland almost as a good a rebounding team as San Antonio, but when he's off we're only as good as Phoenix, the worst team in the NBA. If you want to argue that Oberto is as good or better then you would have to show something other than your opinion, because the numbers show, regardless of which numbers you want to look at, that Joel is a fairly elite rebounder who is good enough to turn a pretty bad rebounding team into one that would be top 10 in the NBA. Remember--rebounding is not a stat like shots where on a bad team a designated shooter can launch up 40 shots per game and skew the numbers like Durant is doing in Seattle, getting good stats despite being horribly inefficient. Rebounds don't work that way--on every rebounding opportunity any of the ten players can get it. This is especially true when you're looking at +/- like this, because what you see is that regardless of what crappy rebounding teammates that Joel has around him, he alone is good enough against the other team that he makes Portland a good rebounding team all by himself. Does Duncan capture rebounds that might go to Oberto and affect his PER40? Possibly. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about overall rebounds captured by a team regardless of what folks are on the floor for them. So when Oberto s on the floor he makes a good rebounding team a little bit better at capturing rebounds from the other team, but Joel goes out and wins a huge percentage from the other team that wouldn't have been won by Portland otherwise. So while I'll agree that the PER numbers don't tell the whole story, the PER numbers in combination with the huge affect that you see on overall team rebounding percentage gets a lot closer.

[Goldbum]

I take Joel over Oberto any day. Oberto may be a better man defender but Joel is a MUCH better team defender, he makes a bigger impact on the game(which Mojo's stats show)with his shotblocking and toughness. Oberto is a good "system" type player who can contribute to the things his team does well, Joel P can make up for alot of a teams flaws. Oberto does not do that.

[J~Rush]

So, how about that freeland guy eh?

[Tim Lehrbach]

Great posts, mojo. I've made similar defenses of Przybilla to d-train and others over the last few seasons, but d-train refuses to see any good in him.