How much can coaching improve the Trailblazers?

[DeBlazerRiddem]

You mentioned Siakam. Well, Jake Fisher who has been as accurate with his calls as Woj. He is connected with Toronto has said that the PDX/TOR talks on Siakam showed that Olshey placed a ridiculous value on CJ and that it was Portland that killed the discussions and withdrew because Toronto didn't share the view on CJ's value.

I wonder what that actually means though. Is Toronto asking for something crazy like CJ, Nurkic, RoCo and all of Portland's picks + pick swaps because they don't value CJ or have him negative? Is Portland asking Toronto to throw extra picks and Boucher on top of Siakam just to get CJ?


There is a lot of ambiguity there. I think from history we can probably infer its closer to the latter situation but that isn't definite. All we have is someone's subjective opinion based on 3rd hand conversations where everyone has a vested interest in appearing to be the only reasonable one.

[Wizenheimer]

You mentioned Siakam. Well, Jake Fisher who has been as accurate with his calls as Woj. He is connected with Toronto has said that the PDX/TOR talks on Siakam showed that Olshey placed a ridiculous value on CJ and that it was Portland that killed the discussions and withdrew because Toronto didn't share the view on CJ's value.

I wonder what that actually means though. Is Toronto asking for something crazy like CJ, Nurkic, RoCo and all of Portland's picks + pick swaps because they don't value CJ or have him negative? Is Portland asking Toronto to throw extra picks and Boucher on top of Siakam just to get CJ?


There is a lot of ambiguity there. I think from history we can probably infer its closer to the latter situation but that isn't definite. All we have is someone's subjective opinion based on 3rd hand conversations where everyone has a vested interest in appearing to be the only reasonable one.

Read on Twitter

there was another tweet of his, that I can't find, that was more detailed and talked about Portland placing higher value on CJ than the rest of the league. And that it was the Blazers that terminated discussions. Obviously, Fisher is basing this on his Toronto connections so there may be some spin involved

in fact, if you look at the latest rumors about Simmons and Siakam, and the teams interested in them, the Blazers aren't mentioned any more

but, Olshey's history with CJ does not suggest much ambiguity. He overvalues CJ. Always has, always will

edit: actually it was Fisher being interviewed where he said these things. My recall was off

[DeBlazerRiddem]

You mentioned Siakam. Well, Jake Fisher who has been as accurate with his calls as Woj. He is connected with Toronto has said that the PDX/TOR talks on Siakam showed that Olshey placed a ridiculous value on CJ and that it was Portland that killed the discussions and withdrew because Toronto didn't share the view on CJ's value.

I wonder what that actually means though. Is Toronto asking for something crazy like CJ, Nurkic, RoCo and all of Portland's picks + pick swaps because they don't value CJ or have him negative? Is Portland asking Toronto to throw extra picks and Boucher on top of Siakam just to get CJ?


There is a lot of ambiguity there. I think from history we can probably infer its closer to the latter situation but that isn't definite. All we have is someone's subjective opinion based on 3rd hand conversations where everyone has a vested interest in appearing to be the only reasonable one.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

there was another tweet of his, that I can't find, that was more detailed and talked about Portland placing higher value on CJ than the rest of the league. And that it was the Blazers that terminated discussions. Obviously, Fisher is basing this on his Toronto connections so there may be some spin involved

in fact, if you look at the latest rumors about Simmons and Siakam, and the teams interested in them, the Blazers aren't mentioned any more

but, Olshey's history with CJ does not suggest much ambiguity. He overvalues CJ. Always has, always will

None of that answers my question, its all just inferred and subjective evaluation. Is Olshey asking for more than Siakam for CJ? That would be unreasonable on our end but I don't see it leading to "Portland breaking off discussions". Does Toronto view CJ as negative and wants all available assets added? That would be unreasonable on their end and I could see that leading to "Portland breaking off discussions".

There is a lot of daylight between those two scenarios where these discussions actually fell and all we have is one reporters "spin" which almost always is advancing the agenda of their local GM. So I don't take it as just fact that Portland was the unreasonable one, we could be but with the info available so could Toronto. If Portland was the one who broke off discussions it may very well be likely they were the ones being low-balled, otherwise if Portland was low-balling Toronto then wouldn't they be the ones to break off discussion? So it really could go either way and this reporting sheds zero light on the situation, I don't take it as the obvious condemnation of Olshey that you do, just one GM using the media to try and leverage another GM and maybe even get them back to the table.

[Wizenheimer]

There is a lot of daylight between those two scenarios where these discussions actually fell and all we have is one reporters "spin" which almost always is advancing the agenda of their local GM. So I don't take it as just fact. If Portland was the one who broke off discussions it may very well be likely they were the ones being low-balled, otherwise if Portland was low-balling Toronto then wouldn't they be the ones to break off discussion? So it really could go either way and this reporting sheds zero light on the situation, I don't take it as the obvious condemnation of Olshey that you do, just one GM using the media to try and leverage another GM.

I get all that, and it makes sense generically....but not in this case

this is the Olshey/CJ thing and this is not the first time we've heard that Olshey overvalues CJ to an extreme extent. We've been hearing that for several years from many reporters and bloggers from all over the land. And, we have what Olshey has done in roster construction for the last 6 seasons to buttress that assumption

[DeBlazerRiddem]

There is a lot of daylight between those two scenarios where these discussions actually fell and all we have is one reporters "spin" which almost always is advancing the agenda of their local GM. So I don't take it as just fact. If Portland was the one who broke off discussions it may very well be likely they were the ones being low-balled, otherwise if Portland was low-balling Toronto then wouldn't they be the ones to break off discussion? So it really could go either way and this reporting sheds zero light on the situation, I don't take it as the obvious condemnation of Olshey that you do, just one GM using the media to try and leverage another GM.

I get all that, and it makes sense generically....but not in this case

this is the Olshey/CJ thing and this is not the first time we've heard that Olshey overvalues CJ to an extreme extent. We've been hearing that for several years from many reporters and bloggers from all over the land. And, we have what Olshey has done in roster construction for the last 6 seasons to buttress that assumption

I agree that history suggests Olshey is the one overvaluing CJ, but that doesn't preclude that Toronto may be undervaluing him as well. Both can mutually be true. The interesting thing to me that may suggest a counter narrative is that Portland is the one who broke off discussion.

[BNM]

TOR is full on rebuilding. Why would they want CJ, a highly paid 30-year old? So yeah, they probably value him less than POR and also below his fair market value.

I suspect the hold up in all of this is Daryl Morey and his ridiculous demands for Ben Simmons. He wants a Harden like haul for a severely flawed player who becomes unplayable in the playoffs. The deal that makes the most sense for all three teams is Saikam to POR, Simmons to TOR and CJ to PHI (plus other players and draft picks/swaps as needed). If anyone is overvaluing their player, it would be Morey. If there is going to be a Siakam to POR deal, I suspect Masai is waiting for Morey to reduce his demands to something more reasonable so a 3-team trade can be worked out that's agreeable to all teams.

Even if Siakam doesn't come to POR, I suspect the Simmons trade is the first domino in any big trades involving Siakam and CJ. The writing was on the wall the minute PHI got bumped by ATL and Doc and Joel both threw Simmons under the bus. The entire league knows Morey needs to move Simmons, but Morey is hoping somehow Simmons value will bounce back from an all time low. He's asking a King's ransom in an effort to prop up Simmons value, everyone knows it and so far, no one is buying it.

[BNM]

There is a lot of daylight between those two scenarios where these discussions actually fell and all we have is one reporters "spin" which almost always is advancing the agenda of their local GM. So I don't take it as just fact. If Portland was the one who broke off discussions it may very well be likely they were the ones being low-balled, otherwise if Portland was low-balling Toronto then wouldn't they be the ones to break off discussion? So it really could go either way and this reporting sheds zero light on the situation, I don't take it as the obvious condemnation of Olshey that you do, just one GM using the media to try and leverage another GM.

I get all that, and it makes sense generically....but not in this case

this is the Olshey/CJ thing and this is not the first time we've heard that Olshey overvalues CJ to an extreme extent. We've been hearing that for several years from many reporters and bloggers from all over the land. And, we have what Olshey has done in roster construction for the last 6 seasons to buttress that assumption

The difference is the face of the franchise wants to see significant changes. Until now Dame was also against trading his friend and backcourt running mate. Yes, Olshey tends to overvalue "his guys", but Damian Lillard is this organization's cash cow. Dame is the all star, all NBA player with national endorsements that gets POR on national TV, puts butts in seats and gets them to the playoffs. Even if Olshey "likes" CJ more than Dame, the people controlling the purse strings in Seattle know who is the one lining their pockets. It's not CJ McCollum, nor Neil Olshey. When it comes to the organization's bottom line, they are far, far more expendable than Damian Lillard.

[Wizenheimer]

I agree that history suggests Olshey is the one overvaluing CJ, but that doesn't preclude that Toronto may be undervaluing him as well. Both can mutually be true. The interesting thing to me that may suggest a counter narrative is that Portland is the one who broke off discussion.

I have heard, many times, that Olshey overvalues his own assets, CJ in particular. I haven't heard that about Ujiri, but I could have missed something. Odds seem good if one was being unreasonable it was Olshey. But sure, Maybe Ujiri was too

I do know this, Ujiri has engineered several big trades during his stints in Denver and Toronto. Olshey has engineered none. If Ujiri came into discussions with unreasonable demands, he would have the transaction record he has

[BNM]

I agree that history suggests Olshey is the one overvaluing CJ, but that doesn't preclude that Toronto may be undervaluing him as well. Both can mutually be true. The interesting thing to me that may suggest a counter narrative is that Portland is the one who broke off discussion.

I have heard, many times, that Olshey overvalues his own assets, CJ in particular. I haven't heard that about Ujiri, but I could have missed something. Odds seem good if one was being unreasonable it was Olshey. But sure, Maybe Ujiri was too

I do know this, Ujiri has engineered several big trades during his stints in Denver and Toronto. Olshey has engineered none. If Ujiri came into discussions with unreasonable demands, he would have the transaction record he has

Or, maybe Ujiri knows he has the more valuable asset and is low balling Olshey. Honestly, none of us have any idea what was actually said. Still, why would TOR want CJ? Seriously, please try to answer this question. He's three years older than Siakam, both are owed $100 million over the next three years and Siakam, as a 6'9" 2-way player is much more valuable and in demand than CJ.

I can't picture any possible trade where CJ ends up in TOR. He is simply a terrible fit for a team that's rebuilding. There has to be a 3rd team involved and maybe it's that third team (or trying to find one that wants CJ) that's holding things up.

[GEE]

Morey's overvaluing of Simmons, along with Olshey's in CJ, is a clear problem. Most things said in the last several posts seem pretty spot on. I think Morey has also made it pretty obvious that Dame is his target, and may think he can get him, believing Dame may want to request a trade.

Morey might be able to sell Dame on a true Championship chance in Philly, but if Dame shows he doesn't want to leave, that could change things in regards to CJ potentially moving.

[monopoman]

I agree that history suggests Olshey is the one overvaluing CJ, but that doesn't preclude that Toronto may be undervaluing him as well. Both can mutually be true. The interesting thing to me that may suggest a counter narrative is that Portland is the one who broke off discussion.

I have heard, many times, that Olshey overvalues his own assets, CJ in particular. I haven't heard that about Ujiri, but I could have missed something. Odds seem good if one was being unreasonable it was Olshey. But sure, Maybe Ujiri was too

I do know this, Ujiri has engineered several big trades during his stints in Denver and Toronto. Olshey has engineered none. If Ujiri came into discussions with unreasonable demands, he would have the transaction record he has

Or, maybe Ujiri knows he has the more valuable asset and is low balling Olshey. Honestly, none of us have any idea what was actually said. Still, why would TOR want CJ? Seriously, please try to answer this question. He's three years older than Siakam, both are owed $100 million over the next three years and Siakam, as a 6'9" 2-way player is much more valuable and in demand than CJ.

I can't picture any possible trade where CJ ends up in TOR. He is simply a terrible fit for a team that's rebuilding. There has to be a 3rd team involved and maybe it's that third team (or trying to find one that wants CJ) that's holding things up.

I mean is Siakam a viable #1 option though? Maybe, Toronto doesn't view him as a franchise player, now CJ is not that either but at least he has the potential to be a solid scoring option.

Siakam does have that championship ring but that is mostly attributed to injuries from the Warriors and Kawhi.

[BNM]

I have heard, many times, that Olshey overvalues his own assets, CJ in particular. I haven't heard that about Ujiri, but I could have missed something. Odds seem good if one was being unreasonable it was Olshey. But sure, Maybe Ujiri was too

I do know this, Ujiri has engineered several big trades during his stints in Denver and Toronto. Olshey has engineered none. If Ujiri came into discussions with unreasonable demands, he would have the transaction record he has

Or, maybe Ujiri knows he has the more valuable asset and is low balling Olshey. Honestly, none of us have any idea what was actually said. Still, why would TOR want CJ? Seriously, please try to answer this question. He's three years older than Siakam, both are owed $100 million over the next three years and Siakam, as a 6'9" 2-way player is much more valuable and in demand than CJ.

I can't picture any possible trade where CJ ends up in TOR. He is simply a terrible fit for a team that's rebuilding. There has to be a 3rd team involved and maybe it's that third team (or trying to find one that wants CJ) that's holding things up.

I mean is Siakam a viable #1 option though? Maybe, Toronto doesn't view him as a franchise player, now CJ is not that either but at least he has the potential to be a solid scoring option.

Siakam does have that championship ring but that is mostly attributed to injuries from the Warriors and Kawhi.

Who cares if CJ is a potential #1 option? TOR is rebuilding aren't trying to win, or make the playoffs. Again, a 30-year old with a $100 million contract is a terrible fit for a rebuilding team.

Any deal involving CJ and Siakam needs to be at least a 3 team deal, or maybe a 4 team trade involving POR, TOR, PHI and GSW.