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WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija

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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#121 » by BlazersBroncos » Wed Jul 3, 2024 7:33 pm

Pattycakes wrote:
TGW wrote:I’m a wizards fan. I was borderline about to quit the team over this trade.

Deni is loved. Imagine watching Sharpe turn into a legitimate NBA stud and then trading him for a couple of mid-first.

Bummer to hear Chauncey isn’t an imaginative coach. Deni has played under some doodoo coaches; once Unseld Jr was fired, Deni was fantastic.


People are a lil negative around these parts.. I’m sure Chauncey and Deni will grow to love each other and be fine


I dont think people are saying Chauncey has issues with his players - the opposite, they love the guy.

The issue is he is horrible as a game planner, an X / O guy, at making in-game decisions, calling timeouts, using challenges. The stuff that matters.
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#122 » by BNM » Wed Jul 3, 2024 8:11 pm

Pattycakes wrote:
TGW wrote:I’m a wizards fan. I was borderline about to quit the team over this trade.

Deni is loved. Imagine watching Sharpe turn into a legitimate NBA stud and then trading him for a couple of mid-first.

Bummer to hear Chauncey isn’t an imaginative coach. Deni has played under some doodoo coaches; once Unseld Jr was fired, Deni was fantastic.


People are a lil negative around these parts.. I’m sure Chauncey and Deni will grow to love each other and be fine


LOL, in the long run, it won't matter. Chauncey will be gone after the upcoming season, if not sooner (oh please, oh please, oh please). I just hate to see a season of Deni's (and Scoot's and Shaedon's and Clingan's and...) development wasted because our owner is too disinterested to fire Chauncy and hire a legitimate NBA head coach.

To call Chauncey unimaginative is an understatement. The Blazers offense is the most simplistic, easiest to defend in the league. An ISO heavy offense made some sense when we had Lillard and McCollum. Dame is a solid finisher with an exceptional first step and range out to the logo and beyond and CJ has one of the best handles in the league. Running the same offense with Scoot (terrible finisher) and Sharpe (weak handle) makes zero sense. Simons is McCollum lite, but more streaky. Not bad, but when you only have one guard capable of getting his own shot, running all IOSs all the time isn't going to work.

It's pretty easy to see why Portland was dead last in both AST/G (by a mile) and also dead last in TS%. Someone needs to remind Chauncey this is 2024, not 2004. The game had changed, but he didn't get the memo. In 2004, Chauncey's championship Pistons averaged 90.1 ppg and made 4.1 3FG/G. In 2024, the champion Celtics averaged 120.6 ppg and 16.5 3FG/G - that's an increase in total scoring of 34% and an increase in made 3-pointers of over 400%.

Yet Chauncey still coaches like it's 2004.
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#123 » by BNM » Wed Jul 3, 2024 8:18 pm

Shem wrote:A video breaking down Deni's defense that was released nearly a year ago.



I love Deni's defense!!! POR has sucked under Chauncey on defense - which was his hypothetical strength given the type of player he was.

Of course, the Chauncey apologists will claim it was all due to the roster. I wonder what their excuse will be this year when he can role out a 5-man unit with Clingan, Deni, Thybulle, Sharpe and Scoot (or Clingan, Grant, Deni, Thybulle and Scoot when you really need a stop). Sharpe and Scoot are the "weak" links, but both have the athleticism and length to be above average defenders - if only they were in the hands of a capable coach.
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#124 » by JasonStern » Thu Jul 4, 2024 1:27 am

DusterBuster wrote:I hate it. **** Cronin.

Would have rather just bought out Brogdon.


There would be no reason to buy out Brogdon. He was a cool dude that was fine playing on a rebuilding team that expired in one year and was a good mentor to Scoot/Simons. I am fine with the Deni Avdija acquisition. Overpaid, and now owe another way out pick and are in pick hell. There needs to be an Olshey/Cronin rule similar to the Stepien rule where you can't trade picks more than 3 years out. Or teams that are supposed to be for sale cannot trade future picks.
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#125 » by JasonStern » Thu Jul 4, 2024 1:33 am

The Sebastian Express wrote:But I'm good with it. I'm a little worried it signals we aren't trading Ant, but I hope not. We really need to move Ant.


Stop. With Brogdon moved, Ant is easily our best guard and arguably our best player. (Scary, but if the games are on RootTV, and nobody watches, did the losses actually happen?) We've discussed in depth that he has a flawed game, but that does not mean he has no game.
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#126 » by JasonStern » Thu Jul 4, 2024 1:37 am

BNM wrote:In 2004, Chauncey's championship Pistons averaged 90.1 ppg and made 4.1 3FG/G.


So there is hope in a slight improvement...?
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#127 » by The Sebastian Express » Thu Jul 4, 2024 1:44 am

JasonStern wrote:
The Sebastian Express wrote:But I'm good with it. I'm a little worried it signals we aren't trading Ant, but I hope not. We really need to move Ant.


Stop. With Brogdon moved, Ant is easily our best guard and arguably our best player. (Scary, but if the games are on RootTV, and nobody watches, did the losses actually happen?) We've discussed in depth that he has a flawed game, but that does not mean he has no game.


It'd probably be good if you read my other posts about Ant over the last year before you try to assert I've said he has no game. Thanks.
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#128 » by BNM » Thu Jul 4, 2024 2:42 am

JasonStern wrote:
BNM wrote:In 2004, Chauncey's championship Pistons averaged 90.1 ppg and made 4.1 3FG/G.


So there is hope in a slight improvement...?


I was just pointing out the game has changed dramatically in the 20 years since Chauncey won his title with the Pistons.

Unfortunately, he hasn't kept up with the changes in the way modern NBA offenses are supposed to work.
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#129 » by PDXKnight » Thu Jul 4, 2024 2:56 am

BNM wrote:
JasonStern wrote:
BNM wrote:In 2004, Chauncey's championship Pistons averaged 90.1 ppg and made 4.1 3FG/G.


So there is hope in a slight improvement...?


I was just pointing out the game has changed dramatically in the 20 years since Chauncey won his title with the Pistons.

Unfortunately, he hasn't kept up with the changes in way modern NBA offenses are supposed to work.


Chauncey, and I don't mean this in the wrong way, he doesn't seem coach smart. High iq player but maybe one of the lowest iq coaches I've ever witnessed. Even in his interviews he doesn't seem like he knows much schematically it's just sort of generic babble about how we can improve. Maybe it's no fault of his own as he didn't have much experience but still there it is..
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#130 » by arusinov » Thu Jul 4, 2024 4:40 pm

BNM wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
Pistol King wrote:They could still have done a better job developing him. Only around January after they replaced a coach and brought Brian Keefe to the front seat, he started utilizing Deni as a more of primary option. The key was upping his minutes from ~28MPG till February to 34-35MPG since. Despite outplaying Kuzma and Poole at the second half of the season, the organization was 'committed' to these two as their first option for some reason, otherwise we'd have seen even a bigger leap of him.

I'm trying for five days to figure out why Will Dawkins did this trade, have heard many different answers, but none has convinced me it was the right choice.

Can only hope the Blazers would push Deni to the maximum. This guy is a willing listener, a very hard worker who would do whatever it takes to reach his ceiling, but not at the cost of what the system wants from him, so it's important the Blazers organization themselves would show him they want to maximize his potential.

This.

And he is a + defender. You can put him at either forward spot and choose to go big or small. He doesn't have to be the primary focus of the offense; he just needs to be included.

I am really interested to see how your coach utilizes him (positionally (which forward position) and in the offense).


On paper, Deni looks like EXACTLY what Portland needs. Unfortunately, his talents will be wasted under the worst, least imaginative coach in the league.

Under Billups, POR runs a ridiculously simplistic, antiquated, ISO heavy offense with little player or ball movement. Billups has trouble figuring out how to use a primary playmaker (POR last in the league in AST/G by a HUGE margin - POR further from the 29th place team than the 29th place team is from the 18th place team). You can forget him figuring out how to use a secondary playmaker, especially a 6'9" forward, when he can't even figure out how to efficiently use a primary playmaker, or any secondary actions when the primary ISO sets fail.

Under Billups, expect Deni to be wasted and to stagnate, or even regress. The good news is Billups only has 1 guaranteed year left on his contract - or 2 years if they are dumb enough to pick up the team option (who knows, they were dumb enough to hire him). I hope that isn't enough to ruin Deni before POR hires a real coach.

On the bright side, with Billups at the helm, POR will again have one of the worst records in the league and a shot a high draft pick. Hopefully, the ping pong balls will be kinder to us in 2024 than they were in 2024. That's really all we have to look forward to as long as Chauncey is our coach.


And here're major questions about Deni's maturity and about how much faith the organization has in him...

His rookie season's coaching by Scott Brooks was unmitigated terror which would end careers of many players. It was not just that Deni got stuck in the corner as 3&D player which is not his best fit... much worse - he always was great running fast breaks from defensive rebound to assist or basket, but Westbrook wanted ball in his hand in all transition plays - which in my opinion devastated Deni even more than being cornered in 3&D role.

In second season he learned to just survive in rotation as his physical qualities, high BBIQ and skill set make possible for him to be “Swiss knife” which can guard almost any player (except big centers) as required, while he was living from left overs off the team stars (or "stars") on offense. It went this way with minor role expansion under mechanical coaching of Wes Unseld Jr and only as Keefe took over Deni was used more correctly.

Here’s the thing though. Even if Billups is as bad coach as Brooks (which I still find hard to believe as in my opinion nobody can be that bad) Deni is not in the same situation. Brooks’ Wizards team had Russ/Beal guards duo with ridiculous 60+% combined usage, and Rui Hachimura which is basically pure scorer with almost no distribution ability as third option… And not only Brooks but also Wizards’ management were totally fine with it. So they did absolutely nothing to develop Deni's game, and made him to lose confidence. As a result on one hand Deni lacked assertiveness to try much more than corner 3PA and cuts on offense… but also if he tried he would be out of rotation in no time.

But... Deni can score in any offense. Using his size and quickness he can take one on one almost any defender except best designated wing stoppers (and if he’s 2nd/3rd option the opponent can’t stuck the stopper on him full time), he can run p&r and shoot pull-up 3P if defender tries to go under, and certainly he can lead fast breaks. Sure in ISO heavy offense his efficiency will be worse but he can average some 18+ points and 5+ assists on at least average efficiency if not better…

All this if 1.he underwent enough growth both in his game and psychological qualities to retain top-3 option mindset on offense even if the coach Is not good in maximizing offensive qualities of players.. and 2. the team’s management will be supportive enough.

p.s.
Better option though if the team start moving ball, both for Deni as for the team.
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#131 » by PDXKnight » Thu Jul 4, 2024 4:52 pm

I think Chauncey will underutilize deni from what I'm reading in above post
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#132 » by tester551 » Thu Jul 4, 2024 5:11 pm

PDXKnight wrote:I think Chauncey will underutilize deni from what I'm reading in above post

Agreed.

Billups primary coaching influence has been Scott Brooks....
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#133 » by JasonStern » Thu Jul 4, 2024 6:10 pm

BNM wrote:
JasonStern wrote:
BNM wrote:In 2004, Chauncey's championship Pistons averaged 90.1 ppg and made 4.1 3FG/G.


So there is hope in a slight improvement...?


I was just pointing out the game has changed dramatically in the 20 years since Chauncey won his title with the Pistons.

Unfortunately, he hasn't kept up with the changes in the way modern NBA offenses are supposed to work.


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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#134 » by HoopsFanAZ » Thu Jul 4, 2024 6:24 pm

The reality of Avdija on court with Scoot, Sharpe, et.al. will start hitting during veteran camp. I’m looking forward to the player comments. The highlights and compilations and comments by Wizards on boards looks pretty good.

Trading Brogdon — a total pro who gets a bit dinged up — going into his MBEC year was the right move at the right time. Trading 14 (even in a highly criticized draft) is not what I wanted, but it’s hard to argue against Deni being better than other wings at 14 (or higher). And trading the 2nd best of 3 first round picks in 2029 still wasn’t an overpay. [What happens in the 2029 draft could possibly have a different opinion. That’s part of the risk.]

Cronin and Schmitz got this one done. They made not getting Salaun who went at 6, or taking Cody Williams, less painful, and they got their guy — Clingan — falling to 7.

We now wait (still) in the early days of free agency to see about Grant … maybe Ant …
Teams who have (1) lost out on PG13 and/or Klay, (2) reportedly “inquired” about Grant, (3) and who are being reported as having to seriously pay up to get Markkanen will make their self-interested calculations while Cronin is (according to reports) being patient in getting fair value. Good luck, Cronin.
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#135 » by JRoy » Thu Jul 4, 2024 7:07 pm

HoopsFanAZ wrote:The reality of Avdija on court with Scoot, Sharpe, et.al. will start hitting during veteran camp. I’m looking forward to the player comments. The highlights and compilations and comments by Wizards on boards looks pretty good.

Trading Brogdon — a total pro who gets a bit dinged up — going into his MBEC year was the right move at the right time. Trading 14 (even in a highly criticized draft) is not what I wanted, but it’s hard to argue against Deni being better than other wings at 14 (or higher). And trading the 2nd best of 3 first round picks in 2029 still wasn’t an overpay. [What happens in the 2029 draft could possibly have a different opinion. That’s part of the risk.]

Cronin and Schmitz got this one done. They made not getting Salaun who went at 6, or taking Cody Williams, less painful, and they got their guy — Clingan — falling to 7.

We now wait (still) in the early days of free agency to see about Grant … maybe Ant …
Teams who have (1) lost out on PG13 and/or Klay, (2) reportedly “inquired” about Grant, (3) and who are being reported as having to seriously pay up to get Markkanen will make their self-interested calculations while Cronin is (according to reports) being patient in getting fair value. Good luck, Cronin.


Great post.

Appreciate the perspective.

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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#136 » by HoopsFanAZ » Fri Jul 5, 2024 1:33 am

Thanks,
and Happy 4th to all!
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#137 » by JasonStern » Fri Jul 5, 2024 3:38 pm

No. If we value Brogdon as a late 1st, that's #14, #30ish for Brogdon, two 2nd round picks, and a 2029 future first. That's an overpay.

That said, I'm coming to terms with it. Deni can easily be a Batum tier player. And he fits a position of need that we have had since Batum left (sorry Harkless/Aminu). And we had the draft capital available. And every interesting player was taken before #14 in this draft. The draft is a crapshoot and Deni has proven he can play in the league. And Deni and Clingan actually play defense, which will be new. Same with an actual wing with size! (In before Billups plays him at PF when he is clearly a SF).
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#138 » by BNM » Fri Jul 5, 2024 5:52 pm

JasonStern wrote:No. If we value Brogdon as a late 1st, that's #14, #30ish for Brogdon, two 2nd round picks, and a 2029 future first. That's an overpay.

That said, I'm coming to terms with it. Deni can easily be a Batum tier player. And he fits a position of need that we have had since Batum left (sorry Harkless/Aminu). And we had the draft capital available. And every interesting player was taken before #14 in this draft. The draft is a crapshoot and Deni has proven he can play in the league. And Deni and Clingan actually play defense, which will be new. Same with an actual wing with size! (In before Billups plays him at PF when he is clearly a SF).


If we don't make any trades involving Ant, Grant or Thybulle, Ant NEEDS to come off the bench and be our super 6th man. I hope to god Chauncey isn't stupid enough to trot out Scoot, Ant and Sharpe as the latest installment of our undersized starting 1, 2 and 3. Sharpe is our SG of the future. Please don't stunt his development by forcing him to play out of position at small forward.

Simons is a classic tweener, not a true PG, but too small defend starting SGs. He is, however, a good compliment to both Scoot and Sharpe. His shooting helps spread the floor for Scoot's drives and gives him an outlet when the defense collapses. He also provides ball handing next to Sharpe.

Clingan, Deni and Thybulle give POR three complimentary potential all-defense caliber defenders - a center, and wing with good size and a guard who is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. They are switchable and can guard multiple positions, but please don't use that as an excuse for playing them out of position. It's not necessary and limits their impact on defense.

As long as we have Grant, he should be starting at PF next to Deni at SF. Deni is a stellar defender and Grant can be a plus defender when he wants to be. They are both switchable on defense. Deni should be the secondary distributor on offense, playing point forward (the Batum/Pippen role). Deni also rebounds well enough to cover up for one of Grant's biggest weaknesses. He gives us both a secondary distributor and secondary rebounder, as well as a versatile, lock down defender - if utilized correctly.

This team has the size and defense chops to be the best defensive team we had since the Dame/Wes/Batum/Aldridge/Lopez days - possibly even better (Scoot has the length to be a better defender than Dame and Deni/Clingan have great length, but also the lateral quickness to switch onto smaller players).

The problem is, if we still have Chauncey, he'll manage to screw it up. He will play players out of position, limiting their development and effectiveness. He will run a simplistic, ISO heavy offense with little ball or player movement, placing Deni in the corner and taking the ball out of his hands.

Can we please just fire him and eat the last year of his contract. Haven't we seen enough?
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#139 » by JasonStern » Fri Jul 5, 2024 6:03 pm

Not going to quote BNM as he wrote a book, but Scoot is not ready. And as much as I hope he becomes a Westbrook, he's most likely going to peak at some Ricky Rubio level. Which is still not bad. Guy had an 11 year NBA career.

Sharpe is the franchise. He's raw as well, and not ready to start. But he either develops or we wasted another season of Dame's career.

I will never get the Simons hate. Or the flip him for picks and hope to draft someone as talented. His game is flawed, but he's still the best player on the team. And he still fits the team's timeline. If Sharpe and Scoot develop, then sure. Bench Simons or flip him for a missing piece. But now, that's just letting the team get blown out. And most player development happens off the court, so the argument that draft picks fail because they need playing time is flawed. They need mentors and development coaches. Scoot putting up 3 of the 4 worst +/- of all time last season? Yeah. I am sure that developed his game instead of crushing any confidence he had.

Agree with the fire Billups narrative. Just don't trust management to find a better coach.
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Re: WOJ: Blazers trade Brogdon and 14 for WAS or Deni Avdija 

Post#140 » by Runner300 » Sat Jul 6, 2024 11:37 am

Considering Deni's limitations
(no midrange pull-up, hesitant left) and his strengths (great speed and handle for his size, strong finish, court vision and passing ) -
he's IMHO better at position 4, where he's guarded by slower defender, and gets to guard a slower, more limited players, with no need to chase them around.

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