Trade deadline, buyouts, and waivers

[d-train]

I mean.. I don't know what to say other than you're waaaaaaaayyy off base. Haven't watched Aaron Gordon, and are constructing a false reality based on your perception. Can't really debate you as you don't seem to be grounded in a debatable position.

It's not possible for either of us to support our arguments with facts. There are no issues that can be resolved with relevant facts. We can only do what we have done. I asked what skills you believe AG would apply to make Blazers better. You named his skills and I'm not persuaded. I don't question that AG has the skills. I don't believe his skills would make Blazers better.

We both are projecting our perception of AG into our perception of the Blazers. This is all we can do.

I will say your best argument by far is AG's finishing ability around the basket. You worst argument is his playmaking.

[Roy The Natural]

Disagree completely. We regularly used ET to initiate offense, and he wasn't quite the offensive player that AG is. We'd use him to ball-handle fairly often, and he's a better defender and shooter than ET ever was.

Stotts used ET to initiate offense so he could have more time with Lillard and CJ in the game together. ET did not initiative the offense when either Lillard or CJ was in the game. There may have been a theory that ET's playmaking was going to improve lineups that included Lillard and CJ, but it didn't work. ET's value was mostly as a good rebounder and very good defender. AG would not be as good a defender as ET was.

A bigger stronger defender like ET might have a role on Blazers. They would have to be really good to get any minutes. ET had only Mo to contend with. I doubt ET could get minutes on our current team. RoCo, Melo, DJJ, and Little are too good. And, we have shooters like GTJ, Hood, and Simons.

I mean.. I don't know what to say other than you're waaaaaaaayyy off base. Haven't watched Aaron Gordon, and are constructing a false reality based on your perception. Can't really debate you as you don't seem to be grounded in a debatable position.

I don't even think it's a playmaking argument per se. As much as the fact that he's used to being the ball-handler in the pick and roll. After all, like 90% of the Blazers offense comes from the pick and roll, and having a large player who can run it allows the Blazers to spread the floor with their shooters and give defenses a different look. Even if it is just to give Lillard and McCollum a breather it can still be somewhat effective offense.

[d-train]

Stotts used ET to initiate offense so he could have more time with Lillard and CJ in the game together. ET did not initiative the offense when either Lillard or CJ was in the game. There may have been a theory that ET's playmaking was going to improve lineups that included Lillard and CJ, but it didn't work. ET's value was mostly as a good rebounder and very good defender. AG would not be as good a defender as ET was.

A bigger stronger defender like ET might have a role on Blazers. They would have to be really good to get any minutes. ET had only Mo to contend with. I doubt ET could get minutes on our current team. RoCo, Melo, DJJ, and Little are too good. And, we have shooters like GTJ, Hood, and Simons.

I mean.. I don't know what to say other than you're waaaaaaaayyy off base. Haven't watched Aaron Gordon, and are constructing a false reality based on your perception. Can't really debate you as you don't seem to be grounded in a debatable position.

I don't even think it's a playmaking argument per se. As much as the fact that he's used to being the ball-handler in the pick and roll. After all, like 90% of the Blazers offense comes from the pick and roll, and having a large player who can run it allows the Blazers to spread the floor with their shooters and give defenses a different look. Even if it is just to give Lillard and McCollum a breather it can still be somewhat effective offense.

Ok, you believe he can be a high post secondary distributor out of the pick-n-roll the way Blazers use Nurk. I don't know if he is big enough. One of the reasons that works is Nurk draws a big defender out high and forces a switch of a big onto Lillard or CJ, and a small onto Nurk. The defense ends up giving Lillard or CJ a shot against a big, or Nurk gets the ball being defended by a small and a 3 on 2 advantage because Lillard or CJ draws a help defender that forced the pass back to Nurk.

I believe the key is a big defender. Why would anyone have a big defender against AG? AG would rope in a defender nearly as capable of defending our PG as the player AG would be forcing to switch off our PG. IOW, the defense can switch without suffering a mismatch.

[HoopsFanAZ]

If I'm not recalling correctly, then I must be old. But ...

I remember the chatter and talk and argument a number of years back in free agency about Olshey targeting a forward with some size who could play on the wing in a side pick and roll. Olshey saw that a significant advantage for the Blazers. Fortunately, Olshey didn't get his guy, but the current Gordon chatter MAY be a new and improved variation for Olshey trying to get his guy. Evan Turner was (IMHO) a reaction to Lillard double teams in the playoffs and wanting a secondary ball handler at a forward spot ... but ET was one who didn't fit without the ball in his hands ... pound that rock! Unfortunately the ball didn't leave his hands until he shot it. [Overstatement, I know.] Even Zach Collins lore has Olshey saying that he watched Collins with a behind the back pass for Gonzaga catching his eye. Just a thought.

Oh, and the guy we're glad who didn't sign that offer -- Hedo Turkoglu.

EDITED: As d-train courteously answered below, it was KP, not Olshey, in 2009 who whiffed on Hedo. [I guess I conflated that with Olshey’s fortunate misses. And, yes, it is confirmed. I’m old. ]

[Norm2953]

We can continue to talk about being this or that but unless Nurk gets back strong, I'd have a hard time
believing the Blazers would be favored in first round match up with any of the top 5 teams in the
west. He has missed a lot of games these past two seasons.

[Roy The Natural]

I mean.. I don't know what to say other than you're waaaaaaaayyy off base. Haven't watched Aaron Gordon, and are constructing a false reality based on your perception. Can't really debate you as you don't seem to be grounded in a debatable position.

I don't even think it's a playmaking argument per se. As much as the fact that he's used to being the ball-handler in the pick and roll. After all, like 90% of the Blazers offense comes from the pick and roll, and having a large player who can run it allows the Blazers to spread the floor with their shooters and give defenses a different look. Even if it is just to give Lillard and McCollum a breather it can still be somewhat effective offense.

Ok, you believe he can be a high post secondary distributor out of the pick-n-roll the way Blazers use Nurk. I don't know if he is big enough. One of the reasons that works is Nurk draws a big defender out high and forces a switch of a big onto Lillard or CJ, and a small onto Nurk. The defense ends up giving Lillard or CJ a shot against a big, or Nurk gets the ball being defended by a small and a 3 on 2 advantage because Lillard or CJ draws a help defender that forced the pass back to Nurk.

I believe the key is a big defender. Why would anyone have a big defender against AG? AG would rope in a defender nearly as capable of defending our PG as the player AG would be forcing to switch off our PG. IOW, the defense can switch without suffering a mismatch.

I believe he can be the ballhandler in the P&R and run it with Nurk with the floor spread and present major challenges with his finishing and athleticism.

He's far more explosive and a better shooter than ET ever was. Let's say the lineup is Lillard/McCollum/Gordon/Covington/Nurkic

Let's say Nurk comes up and sets a high screen for Gordon. Gordon's guy gets caught on the screen. Now Gordon is going downhill and Nurk can roll. Gordon is tall, and a solid passer and good ball-handler. In most cases the defense is already in a major jam. The floor is spaced with shooters outside of Nurk and Gordon. Nurk's man basically has to cover 2 people because Nurk sets great screens and Gordon is going to dunk over a recovering defender. Help defense becomes a huge issue as helping off shooters like Lillard and McCollum can lead to consistent disaster.

I also think that Gordon could be capable in the P&R and was the role man pretty effectively earlier in his career. Gordon isn't going to be CP3 out there. But he provides a lot of what Batum did at his peak with upside for better finishing and offensive versatility while being similar defensively.

[d-train]

If I'm not recalling correctly, then I must be old. But ...

I remember the chatter and talk and argument a number of years back in free agency about Olshey targeting a forward with some size who could play on the wing in a side pick and roll. Olshey saw that a significant advantage for the Blazers. Fortunately, Olshey didn't get his guy, but the current Gordon chatter MAY be a new and improved variation for Olshey trying to get his guy. Evan Turner was (IMHO) a reaction to Lillard double teams in the playoffs and wanting a secondary ball handler at a forward spot ... but ET was one who didn't fit without the ball in his hands ... pound that rock! Unfortunately the ball didn't leave his hands until he shot it. [Overstatement, I know.] Even Zach Collins lore has Olshey saying that he watched Collins with a behind the back pass for Gonzaga catching his eye. Just a thought.

Oh, and the guy we're glad who didn't sign that offer -- Hedo Turkoglu.

Turkoglu was a KP target, well before Olshey.

[d-train]

I don't even think it's a playmaking argument per se. As much as the fact that he's used to being the ball-handler in the pick and roll. After all, like 90% of the Blazers offense comes from the pick and roll, and having a large player who can run it allows the Blazers to spread the floor with their shooters and give defenses a different look. Even if it is just to give Lillard and McCollum a breather it can still be somewhat effective offense.

Ok, you believe he can be a high post secondary distributor out of the pick-n-roll the way Blazers use Nurk. I don't know if he is big enough. One of the reasons that works is Nurk draws a big defender out high and forces a switch of a big onto Lillard or CJ, and a small onto Nurk. The defense ends up giving Lillard or CJ a shot against a big, or Nurk gets the ball being defended by a small and a 3 on 2 advantage because Lillard or CJ draws a help defender that forced the pass back to Nurk.

I believe the key is a big defender. Why would anyone have a big defender against AG? AG would rope in a defender nearly as capable of defending our PG as the player AG would be forcing to switch off our PG. IOW, the defense can switch without suffering a mismatch.

I believe he can be the ballhandler in the P&R and run it with Nurk with the floor spread and present major challenges with his finishing and athleticism.

He's far more explosive and a better shooter than ET ever was. Let's say the lineup is Lillard/McCollum/Gordon/Covington/Nurkic

Let's say Nurk comes up and sets a high screen for Gordon. Gordon's guy gets caught on the screen. Now Gordon is going downhill and Nurk can roll. Gordon is tall, and a solid passer and good ball-handler. In most cases the defense is already in a major jam. The floor is spaced with shooters outside of Nurk and Gordon. Nurk's man basically has to cover 2 people because Nurk sets great screens and Gordon is going to dunk over a recovering defender. Help defense becomes a huge issue as helping off shooters like Lillard and McCollum can lead to consistent disaster.

I also think that Gordon could be capable in the P&R and was the role man pretty effectively earlier in his career. Gordon isn't going to be CP3 out there. But he provides a lot of what Batum did at his peak with upside for better finishing and offensive versatility while being similar defensively.

You lose me when you think Stotts is going to turn the offense over to AG. What you are going to get is Stotts running as close to 100% of his possessions as possible through either Lillard or CJ. The role AG would play is a bad version of DJJ on defense and worse off-ball movement on offense. AG might shoot better from 3, but he isn't going to spread the defense. The same defender that doesn't guard DJJ isn't going to guard AG either.

[Roy The Natural]

Ok, you believe he can be a high post secondary distributor out of the pick-n-roll the way Blazers use Nurk. I don't know if he is big enough. One of the reasons that works is Nurk draws a big defender out high and forces a switch of a big onto Lillard or CJ, and a small onto Nurk. The defense ends up giving Lillard or CJ a shot against a big, or Nurk gets the ball being defended by a small and a 3 on 2 advantage because Lillard or CJ draws a help defender that forced the pass back to Nurk.

I believe the key is a big defender. Why would anyone have a big defender against AG? AG would rope in a defender nearly as capable of defending our PG as the player AG would be forcing to switch off our PG. IOW, the defense can switch without suffering a mismatch.

I believe he can be the ballhandler in the P&R and run it with Nurk with the floor spread and present major challenges with his finishing and athleticism.

He's far more explosive and a better shooter than ET ever was. Let's say the lineup is Lillard/McCollum/Gordon/Covington/Nurkic

Let's say Nurk comes up and sets a high screen for Gordon. Gordon's guy gets caught on the screen. Now Gordon is going downhill and Nurk can roll. Gordon is tall, and a solid passer and good ball-handler. In most cases the defense is already in a major jam. The floor is spaced with shooters outside of Nurk and Gordon. Nurk's man basically has to cover 2 people because Nurk sets great screens and Gordon is going to dunk over a recovering defender. Help defense becomes a huge issue as helping off shooters like Lillard and McCollum can lead to consistent disaster.

I also think that Gordon could be capable in the P&R and was the role man pretty effectively earlier in his career. Gordon isn't going to be CP3 out there. But he provides a lot of what Batum did at his peak with upside for better finishing and offensive versatility while being similar defensively.

You lose me when you think Stotts is going to turn the offense over to AG. What you are going to get is Stotts running as close to 100% of his possessions as possible through either Lillard or CJ. The role AG would play is a bad version of DJJ on defense and worse off-ball movement on offense. AG might shoot better from 3, but he isn't going to spread the defense. The same defender that doesn't guard DJJ isn't going to guard AG either.

I'm not saying he's our new PG. I'm saying it provides a new look and some rest from on-ball creation of the over-taxed guards. It's a look you can run a dozen times a game and potentially get good results from. If Stotts can't get the most out of his players he needs to be replaced. Gordon isn't a perfect players or without flaws. However, he provides something that no one else on the roster currently does, and that's valuable.

[d-train]

I believe he can be the ballhandler in the P&R and run it with Nurk with the floor spread and present major challenges with his finishing and athleticism.

He's far more explosive and a better shooter than ET ever was. Let's say the lineup is Lillard/McCollum/Gordon/Covington/Nurkic

Let's say Nurk comes up and sets a high screen for Gordon. Gordon's guy gets caught on the screen. Now Gordon is going downhill and Nurk can roll. Gordon is tall, and a solid passer and good ball-handler. In most cases the defense is already in a major jam. The floor is spaced with shooters outside of Nurk and Gordon. Nurk's man basically has to cover 2 people because Nurk sets great screens and Gordon is going to dunk over a recovering defender. Help defense becomes a huge issue as helping off shooters like Lillard and McCollum can lead to consistent disaster.

I also think that Gordon could be capable in the P&R and was the role man pretty effectively earlier in his career. Gordon isn't going to be CP3 out there. But he provides a lot of what Batum did at his peak with upside for better finishing and offensive versatility while being similar defensively.

You lose me when you think Stotts is going to turn the offense over to AG. What you are going to get is Stotts running as close to 100% of his possessions as possible through either Lillard or CJ. The role AG would play is a bad version of DJJ on defense and worse off-ball movement on offense. AG might shoot better from 3, but he isn't going to spread the defense. The same defender that doesn't guard DJJ isn't going to guard AG either.

I'm not saying he's our new PG. I'm saying it provides a new look and some rest from on-ball creation of the over-taxed guards. It's a look you can run a dozen times a game and potentially get good results from. If Stotts can't get the most out of his players he needs to be replaced. Gordon isn't a perfect players or without flaws. However, he provides something that no one else on the roster currently does, and that's important.

I don't believe Stotts will ever expand the number of ball handler/decision makers he trusts. Stotts wants perfect execution and no errors. He wants the simplest error free path to achieving scoring advantage. The only expansion we will ever see of this is if he goes back to increasing the time Lillard and CJ are in the game together. This forces him to have a backup PG while some regulars rest.

This is how every good coach runs an NBA team. You figure out who your surest hands are, then you run everything through them. Look around the NBA. Teams run everything through 1 or 2 primary players, or they are trying to develop 1 or 2 sure handed options they can run everything through.

Even teams that have multiple sure handed options are only successful if they simplify. LeBron and Rondo didn't share running the offense. LeBron ran the offense. Harden and Irving don't share running the offense. Harden runs the offense. A diversified multifaceted attack sounds great in theory until it collapses under the weight of indecision at the most crucial time of the season. Or, not even indecision, just too many elements for a team to coalesce around in a game that is fast and simple.

[GEE]

I had mentioned weeks ago that Rodney has the ability to handle the rock, and initiate the offense a handful of times each game, and Stotts has had him doing that fairly well as of late. Hood is also a waaaaay better shooter, with limited usage. What is Gordon's usage? He seems to have more of a Melo-like game, than a Batum, knowing how passive Batum was. Also.... have Gordon and Collins ever gone head to head? If so, I'm curious what Gordon was able to do against PsycCO's defense.

Gordon is a nice player, don't get me wrong. But I just feel that we already addressed the need for a combo-forward, 3&D type... his name is Robert.

Olshey clearly has been thinking more long-term than many of us, and isn't so quick to give up on Collins, and neither am I. He's still just a pup, and IMO still has a SMALL amount of time left to prove himself. I'd say by the end of the season, we will know if Collins is the bust that many here (not me) are claiming he is.

And finally... GTJ. Whether he stays or goes will be entirely up to him. He will need to decide, based on many factors (not just the money), where he would like to play next year. In Portland, if it were up to me, the Super 6 man role here in Portland for a fair salary should be hard for him to pass up. No doubt he can get more money elsewhere, but I will strongly disagree that we CAN'T have a trio of Dame, CJ & GTJ locking down the minutes at the PG & SG going forward with Simons for depth.

This Year:
Dame(35) Rotate these guys in and out like in previous 2 games. No more walking the ball up.
CJ(35) / GTJ(26)

Jones Jr(?) / Hood(?) / Little(?) Rotate often as needed to play Fast and Ferocious.
ROCO(30+) / Melo(?)

Bosnian Beast(24) / Turkish Warrior(24) 6-8 Minute bursts.

This could have some success this year, if we play like we did against Dallas & NO. No team in the NBA wants to run with us like that for 48 minutes. We need to play like that every night IMO, and just wear other teams down. Full court pressing...YES!!! 100 MPH... YES, Every game!!!

[Waynearchetype]

I wish Rodney Hood the best, but that injury bit him hard. Of 114 SG's ranked by real plus minus, Rodney Hood is DEAD LAST at 114.

Of ALL players in the NBA, 488 of them, Rodney Hood is # 488.... Dead last.

Of 251 players to qualify for 538s Raptor ranking, Rodney Hood surprises and only comes out 12~ ahead of dead last at 239.

It isn't the dudes fault he got injured and I hate ragging on him, but playing him the minutes he gets played at this point is pure favoritism. Dude is shooting 30% from 3 (37% overall, 44% TS, all team lows if you discount Blevins), and playing atrocious defense. A lot of people are out of the NBA after an injury like that, and I'd be shocked if a team picks him up next year.

[PDXKnight]

I wish Rodney Hood the best, but that injury bit him hard. Of 114 SG's ranked by real plus minus, Rodney Hood is DEAD LAST at 114.

Of ALL players in the NBA, 488 of them, Rodney Hood is # 488.... Dead last.

Of 251 players to qualify for 538s Raptor ranking, Rodney Hood surprises and only comes out 12~ ahead of dead last at 239.

It isn't the dudes fault he got injured and I hate ragging on him, but playing him the minutes he gets played at this point is pure favoritism. Dude is shooting 30% from 3 (37% overall, 44% TS, all team lows if you discount Blevins), and playing atrocious defense. A lot of people are out of the NBA after an injury like that, and I'd be shocked if a team picks him up next year.

Sometimes this kind of injury takes awhile to recover from but with modern medical science it is far more impossible. I think he’s still getting back to form and i suspect next year and maybe even come playoff time he will look like a different man

[Waynearchetype]

Sometimes this kind of injury takes awhile to recover from but with modern medical science it is far more impossible. I think he’s still getting back to form and i suspect next year and maybe even come playoff time he will look like a different man

I'm rooting for him, but he is definitely costing us wins right now and at the expense of more playing time for Nassir Little. There is a chance he returns to form, but I'm not really sure why we are gambling on that when we have a younger and better player desperate for playing time. Using him as a reason to not to pursue Gordon however just doesn't seem rational to me.

[JasonStern]

We can continue to talk about being this or that but unless Nurk gets back strong, I'd have a hard time
believing the Blazers would be favored in first round match up with any of the top 5 teams in the
west. He has missed a lot of games these past two seasons.

Depends on whether the Blazers end up with Aldridge or not. While obviously not as good as Nurkić/Kanter, Aldridge/Kanter is a solid center rotation and certainly better than Kanter/(Giles/Covington/Melo).

Oh, and the guy we're glad who didn't sign that offer -- Hedo Turkoglu.

Turkoglu was a KP target, well before Olshey.

Truth. Greg Monroe was the player Olshey tried to overpay.

[Norm2953]

I don't mind the endless AG talk but think the move should be done in the off season. I'd like to see
the team closer to full strength before changes are made.

One could only imagine how the team would look if both Zach and Nurk were healthy but have
seen this before with Oden, Roy and LA. If Nurk goes down again, Portland would at least be
serviceable at center with LA and Kanter and I'm hoping LA for however long Portland is in the
playoffs, could channel whatever he has left, to be a solid third scoring option. One would
think if LA is bought out, Dame would be the reason, he signs with Portland.

[Wizenheimer]

Oh, and the guy we're glad who didn't sign that offer -- Hedo Turkoglu.

Turkoglu was a KP target, well before Olshey.

Truth. Greg Monroe was the player Olshey tried to overpay.

and Roy Hibbert...and Spenser Hawes....and Kanter....and Chandler Parsons....and Hassan Whiteside....besides Evan Turner....and Allen Crabbe...and Meyers Leonard....and Festus Ezeli

SPAM has been alive and well under Olshey

[HoopsFanAZ]

I don't mind the endless AG talk but think the move should be done in the off season. I'd like to see the team closer to full strength before changes are made.

One could only imagine how the team would look if both Zach and Nurk were healthy but have seen this before with Oden, Roy and LA. If Nurk goes down again, Portland would at least be serviceable at center with LA and Kanter and I'm hoping LA for however long Portland is in the playoffs, could channel whatever he has left, to be a solid third scoring option. One would think if LA is bought out, Dame would be the reason, he signs with Portland.

I’m in the Buy-out-LMA camp 100%. And the I-wish-Collins-could-stay-healthy camp to see if he’s a core player or a glue guy. And Nurkic as the best of the 3-headed monster. Nurkic-Collins-Gordon rotation? Even better ... given good health. With no elite SF anywhere on the horizon ... and with no consistent, true 3&D player at all ... the Blazers HAVE to improve somewhere.

[d-train]

I believe the 3&D term is commonly misused. Or, since it's common, maybe I misuse it.

A 3&D player is a subpar shooter. There strength is defending and because the 3-point shot boosts efficiency of a subpar shooter, they are an expanded breed of player created by the 3-point shot.

In the old days, there used to be the now extinct heavy legged shooter, who could make shots but was too slow to guard his own shadow. These slow heavy legged shooters competed with subpar shooting athletic rangy defenders for the last slots in the playing rotation. When the 3-point line came along, and gave subpar shooters an extra point by stepping back a few feet, that was all the advantage they needed to bury the too-slow to play shooters that populated the bench. And, the 3-point shot expanded the floor, making more athletic rangy players even more useful and further killing the too-slow to play good shooters.

So, 3&d players are inconsistent subpar shooters that use the 3-point shot to normalize the efficiency of their shooting inconsistency. A player that can shoot and defend is not 3&d. He's just good.

[GEE]

I do like Rodney, but I agree that 20 mpg may need to get trimmed down, considering his role, and the impressive play of Little. Something else to consider is, Hood may have been getting a few extra due to GTJ recent scoring slump as well. Definitely expendable, but wouldn't mind keeping him as a 3rd string/utility player. He does fit a small need for this team, but he ain't getting 10 mil next year. Likely half that, 11th or 12th-man money. If Simons continues to improve and looks reliable enough, along with LIttle, I think it will come down to selecting one of either Hood or Jones Jr. I feel strongly that one them won't be here next year, and that ultimately will be Hood. We also have cj who may fit a similar utility style of player, and may be ready to move from the towel waving role, to the 3rd string by next years start.

As far as Gordon, not until we know for sure PsyCO is done for, and that won't be until the off season. Maybe we sniff at him then, but he isn't even close to the first guy I'd first want to target. That man would be Tobias Harris, and would trade quite a bit to get him. But only if Collins can't ball by the end of this year. Same goes for Nurkic.