Dame is coming back to Portland!!!

[DusterBuster]

ok....but...there has been an ongoing discussion in this forum about 2026-27 cap-space, and if the Blazers could generate enough to get Avdija signed to an extension

in that context, discussion about Sharpe's 25M cap-hold is certainly germane as it would effectively erase any cap-space

And even in that context, I will continue to point out teams routinely find ways around this.

I think you've pushed your argument past the breaking point

The Blazers have Deni signed for the next 3 seasons and have massive leverage when he becomes UFA. They won't simply renounce and waive Sharpe to try and generate cap-space that may not even be enough to get Deni re-signed.

besides that, both Sharpe and Camara are eligible for extensions this season. I'd be inclined to think at least one of them will be extended. And that would eliminate any cap-space

not all cap-holds are the same

I'm just not convinced Sharpe is even going to be on the team by the time Deni needs to be resigned. Camara very likely will be resigned unless there's some hardball that gets played, Sharpe needs to prove it to be worth an extension imo.

We're just going to agree to disagree. Teams have proven summer after summer, year after year, that they always operate with multiple scenarios in locked and loaded that they can pivot to when Plan A doesn't work or something unexpected makes Plan B look more appealing than A... All cap holds are basically amount to different route directions on a map.

All cap holds are the same and teams are always prepared to work within or around them when push comes to shove. They always have, they always will... and this forum will continue to over-exaggerate their impact every summer more than actual NBA front offices do.

[Wizenheimer]

All cap holds are the same and teams are always prepared to work within or around them when push comes to shove. They always have, they always will... and this forum will continue to over-exaggerate their impact every summer more than actual NBA front offices do.

this is our disagreement...your insistence that all cap-holds have the same value. It's not true

that's like saying if Camara and Timelord were both free agents next summer, their cap-holds would be the same. One player, Timelord, the Blazers would have no problem renouncing if needed. The other, Camara, Portland would never renounce

in fact, next summer, the Blazers will have 5 cap-holds on free agents: Sharpe-Timelord-Thybulle-Rupert-Reath. Three will be cap-holds on RFA's: Sharpe-Rupert-Reath; and two on UFA's: Timelord and Thybulle

that actually points out a difference in cap-hold value. That being cap-holds on RFA's also have the added the value of right-of-first-refusal - matching an offer sheet. Those are cap-holds giving a team leverage; and leverage has value

I get your argument that most cap-holds are meaningless. That's true. For instance, according to Spotrac, these are the cap-hold's that Portland is working with right now:

Justin Minaya RFA
TJ Leaf RFA
Kelgin Blevins UFA
Bryce McGowens UFA
Ben McLemore UFA
Delano Banton UFA

those are meaningless and would have already been renounced if the Blazers had needed any cap-space. But cap-holds for Sharpe and Camara would be completely different

[DusterBuster]

All cap holds are the same and teams are always prepared to work within or around them when push comes to shove. They always have, they always will... and this forum will continue to over-exaggerate their impact every summer more than actual NBA front offices do.

this is our disagreement...your insistence that all cap-holds have the same value. It's not true

that's like saying if Camara and Timelord were both free agents next summer, their cap-holds would be the same. One player, Timelord, the Blazers would have no problem renouncing if needed. The other, Camara, Portland would never renounce

in fact, next summer, the Blazers will have 5 cap-holds on free agents: Sharpe-Timelord-Thybulle-Rupert-Reath. Three will be cap-holds on RFA's: Sharpe-Rupert-Reath; and two on UFA's: Timelord and Thybulle

that actually points out a difference in cap-hold value. That being cap-holds on RFA's also have the added the value of right-of-first-refusal - matching an offer sheet. Those are cap-holds giving a team leverage; and leverage has value

I get your argument that most cap-holds are meaningless. That's true. For instance, according to Spotrac, these are the cap-hold's that Portland is working with right now:

Justin Minaya RFA
TJ Leaf RFA
Kelgin Blevins UFA
Bryce McGowens UFA
Ben McLemore UFA
Delano Banton UFA

those are meaningless and would have already been renounced if the Blazers had needed any cap-space. But cap-holds for Sharpe and Camara would be completely different

And the part you're not seeing is that it's not about the value, it's that you're not thinking how teams actually operate. They operate with multiple paths each summer and there's multiple avenues to get where you need to go if the need arises.

My point is the continued over-exaggeration of cap holds is stupid. They're just numbers on a sheet and if the need arises (which is wildly unlikely) to make space, teams ALWAYS find a way to do it. If that means waiving some guys that hurt, you CAN do that... now, will they? Very unlikely for a number of reasons... for one, when have the Blazers ever been able to sign a max FA... so obviously that's the far more likely scenario... but if the NEED to for some fluke unforseen reason, teams always get around it.

That's my whole point, I'm not getting hung up on "not all cap holds are created equal" because that's very expressly not my point.

There's a reason you NEVER heard national media members - even ones who are "cap guys" stress or express cap holds when they discuss NBA teams FA summers... because they are only artificial road blocks.

I genuinely don't get whats hard with what I'm trying to express.

[Walton1one]

Waiving a cap hold does matter

Cap Holds:
When a player's contract expires, the team retains a "cap hold" on their salary, which counts against their available cap space

Waiving the Cap Hold:
A team can waive the cap hold, effectively removing it from their salary cap calculations.

Losing Bird Rights:
By waiving the cap hold, the team loses the ability to use their Bird rights to exceed the cap to re-sign the player.

Re-signing:
If a team waives a cap hold and wants to re-sign the player, they can only do so if they have enough cap space to fit the player's salary under the cap, or if they can use another salary cap exception.

Renouncing:
Waiving a cap hold is sometimes referred to as "renouncing" the player's rights,

Bird Right's allow a team to go above the salary cap to resign their own player (3+ consecutive years on team to be eligible)

Other Salary cap exceptions would be (25/26 amounts listed - Salary Cap = $154.647mil):

room MLE (under the salary cap, must be under by this amount or more?) - $8.78mil
Non taxpayer MLE (over the cap\not in tax)- $14.1mil
Taxpayer MLE (over the cap\paying tax) - $5.68mil
[b]Bi-Annual exception 3.32% of salary cap - $5.13mil
Trade Exception POR has none

This is important for a team like POR who would NEED to go over the salary cap to resign a Sharpe let's say, unless you think he is re-signing with POR for any of those amounts, which is doubtful

[Wizenheimer]

All cap holds are the same and teams are always prepared to work within or around them when push comes to shove. They always have, they always will... and this forum will continue to over-exaggerate their impact every summer more than actual NBA front offices do.

this is our disagreement...your insistence that all cap-holds have the same value. It's not true

that's like saying if Camara and Timelord were both free agents next summer, their cap-holds would be the same. One player, Timelord, the Blazers would have no problem renouncing if needed. The other, Camara, Portland would never renounce

in fact, next summer, the Blazers will have 5 cap-holds on free agents: Sharpe-Timelord-Thybulle-Rupert-Reath. Three will be cap-holds on RFA's: Sharpe-Rupert-Reath; and two on UFA's: Timelord and Thybulle

that actually points out a difference in cap-hold value. That being cap-holds on RFA's also have the added the value of right-of-first-refusal - matching an offer sheet. Those are cap-holds giving a team leverage; and leverage has value

I get your argument that most cap-holds are meaningless. That's true. For instance, according to Spotrac, these are the cap-hold's that Portland is working with right now:

Justin Minaya RFA
TJ Leaf RFA
Kelgin Blevins UFA
Bryce McGowens UFA
Ben McLemore UFA
Delano Banton UFA

those are meaningless and would have already been renounced if the Blazers had needed any cap-space. But cap-holds for Sharpe and Camara would be completely different

And the part you're not seeing is that it's not about the value, it's that you're not thinking how teams actually operate. They operate with multiple paths each summer and there's multiple avenues to get where you need to go if the need arises.

My point is the continued over-exaggeration of cap holds is stupid. They're just numbers on a sheet and if the need arises (which is wildly unlikely) to make space, teams ALWAYS find a way to do it. If that means waiving some guys that hurt, you CAN do that... now, will they? Very unlikely for a number of reasons... for one, when have the Blazers ever been able to sign a max FA... so obviously that's the far more likely scenario... but if the NEED to for some fluke unforseen reason, teams always get around it.

That's my whole point, I'm not getting hung up on "not all cap holds are created equal" because that's very expressly not my point.

There's a reason you NEVER heard national media members - even ones who are "cap guys" stress or express cap holds when they discuss NBA teams FA summers... because they are only artificial road blocks.

I genuinely don't get whats hard with what I'm trying to express.

you're not exactly describing brain surgery. I understood what you were saying in your first post on this subject

my point is simple: a year from now the Blazers will have 5 cap-holds. One of them is not like the others. Sharpe's 25M cap-hold is not something the Blazers can or will dodge....unless they already have him on a new contract

[Tim Lehrbach]

I don't think the possibility of Sharpe's cap hold falling away is all that remote. If he is extended, this is obviously moot and there is zero chance cap space will be a thing... but if he's not, this could indicate Portland is not all-in on Shaedon. If that is so, it is not hard to imagine them passing on matching a massive offer sheet next summer. If they do not match, then his cap hold is gone, likely renounced as soon as they decide they will not match if they need the room to sign somebody else. And all of this will probably happen quickly, since most deals are worked out during the moratorium.

I don't think this is probable, but it could happen.

[Wizenheimer]

I don't think the possibility of Sharpe's cap hold falling away is all that remote. If he is extended, this is obviously moot and there is zero chance cap space will be a thing... but if he's not, this could indicate Portland is not all-in on Shaedon. If that is so, it is not hard to imagine them passing on matching a massive offer sheet next summer. If they do not match, then his cap hold is gone, likely renounced as soon as they decide they will not match if they need the room to sign somebody else. And all of this will probably happen quickly, since most deals are worked out during the moratorium.

I don't think this is probable, but it could happen.

a lot of things could happen. Lebron could opt out of his contract and sign for a vet minimum. But he won't

obviously, a lot of this will pivot on how Sharpe performs this season. But if he performs well, and there are some valid reasons to expect he will, the Blazers will not be just dumping him on the speculation they could generate enough cap-space to maybe, re-sign Avdija to an extension that starts 3 seasons later

you and DB have made it pretty clear you have low opinions of both Sharpe and Scoot. Maybe you're justified. maybe not. But you won't be making the decision on the cap-hold of Sharpe. The guy that will is the guy that invested a 7th pick in him and has several times said he's a big part of the future

my pushback on this isn't about the philosophy of cap-holds. It's about the practicality of the notion a cap-hold for 22 year old starting level RFA is just something that's easy to work around. Like I've been saying all cap-holds are not equal. A 4M cap-hold on a scrub is meaningless; a 25M cap-hold on a player you want to keep is completely different

now, in the case of Portland having cap-space next summer, I think their cap-holds are all probably meaningless because the cap-space dream isn't even on life-support anymore

[DeBlazerRiddem]

There are not many players I would let Shaedon walk in order to sign. On the off chance one of them is willing to sign here maybe you make that tough decision but obviously not until it is a sure thing they will sign here.

[tester551]

this is our disagreement...your insistence that all cap-holds have the same value. It's not true

that's like saying if Camara and Timelord were both free agents next summer, their cap-holds would be the same. One player, Timelord, the Blazers would have no problem renouncing if needed. The other, Camara, Portland would never renounce

in fact, next summer, the Blazers will have 5 cap-holds on free agents: Sharpe-Timelord-Thybulle-Rupert-Reath. Three will be cap-holds on RFA's: Sharpe-Rupert-Reath; and two on UFA's: Timelord and Thybulle

that actually points out a difference in cap-hold value. That being cap-holds on RFA's also have the added the value of right-of-first-refusal - matching an offer sheet. Those are cap-holds giving a team leverage; and leverage has value

I get your argument that most cap-holds are meaningless. That's true. For instance, according to Spotrac, these are the cap-hold's that Portland is working with right now:

Justin Minaya RFA
TJ Leaf RFA
Kelgin Blevins UFA
Bryce McGowens UFA
Ben McLemore UFA
Delano Banton UFA

those are meaningless and would have already been renounced if the Blazers had needed any cap-space. But cap-holds for Sharpe and Camara would be completely different

And the part you're not seeing is that it's not about the value, it's that you're not thinking how teams actually operate. They operate with multiple paths each summer and there's multiple avenues to get where you need to go if the need arises.

My point is the continued over-exaggeration of cap holds is stupid. They're just numbers on a sheet and if the need arises (which is wildly unlikely) to make space, teams ALWAYS find a way to do it. If that means waiving some guys that hurt, you CAN do that... now, will they? Very unlikely for a number of reasons... for one, when have the Blazers ever been able to sign a max FA... so obviously that's the far more likely scenario... but if the NEED to for some fluke unforseen reason, teams always get around it.

That's my whole point, I'm not getting hung up on "not all cap holds are created equal" because that's very expressly not my point.

There's a reason you NEVER heard national media members - even ones who are "cap guys" stress or express cap holds when they discuss NBA teams FA summers... because they are only artificial road blocks.

I genuinely don't get whats hard with what I'm trying to express.

you're not exactly describing brain surgery. I understood what you were saying in your first post on this subject

my point is simple: a year from now the Blazers will have 5 cap-holds. One of them is not like the others. Sharpe's 25M cap-hold is not something the Blazers can or will dodge....unless they already have him on a new contract

Agreed - Duster apparently just doesn't have a deep enough understanding of the CBA.

Cap holds are very real restrictions. The holds for most players are not very valuable, and are easily discarded.
But there are times when teams have to take additional moves to ensure the Cap Holds don't hinder the plans.

[Tim Lehrbach]

I don't think the possibility of Sharpe's cap hold falling away is all that remote. If he is extended, this is obviously moot and there is zero chance cap space will be a thing... but if he's not, this could indicate Portland is not all-in on Shaedon. If that is so, it is not hard to imagine them passing on matching a massive offer sheet next summer. If they do not match, then his cap hold is gone, likely renounced as soon as they decide they will not match if they need the room to sign somebody else. And all of this will probably happen quickly, since most deals are worked out during the moratorium.

I don't think this is probable, but it could happen.

a lot of things could happen. Lebron could opt out of his contract and sign for a vet minimum. But he won't

obviously, a lot of this will pivot on how Sharpe performs this season. But if he performs well, and there are some valid reasons to expect he will, the Blazers will not be just dumping him on the speculation they could generate enough cap-space to maybe, re-sign Avdija to an extension that starts 3 seasons later

you and DB have made it pretty clear you have low opinions of both Sharpe and Scoot. Maybe you're justified. maybe not. But you won't be making the decision on the cap-hold of Sharpe. The guy that will is the guy that invested a 7th pick in him and has several times said he's a big part of the future

my pushback on this isn't about the philosophy of cap-holds. It's about the practicality of the notion a cap-hold for 22 year old starting level RFA is just something that's easy to work around. Like I've been saying all cap-holds are not equal. A 4M cap-hold on a scrub is meaningless; a 25M cap-hold on a player you want to keep is completely different

now, in the case of Portland having cap-space next summer, I think their cap-holds are all probably meaningless because the cap-space dream isn't even on life-support anymore

Right. Meaningful cap space means moving Grant or Holiday AND not extending or matching Shaedon. It's far from likely. I guess my tacit agreement with DB, now explicit, is that I'm saying is that if the team did move off a big contract and then chose a renegotiate-and-extend deal with Deni over Sharpe, then Sharpe's cap hold is inherently a casualty (or irrelevant because they've already traded him). The only sense to be made of talking about cap space is precisely in a post-Sharpe world.

But I follow you that this isn't a scenario we should expect or necessarily even desire.

[tester551]

Right. Meaningful cap space means moving Grant or Holiday AND not extending or matching Shaedon.

To get cap space, it's really an OR.

Portland can get ~$35M in cap space by keeping Grant & Holiday -> and renouncing Sharpe, Rupert, Reath, RWIII, Thybulle, & Wesley.

If they can trade one of Grant/Holiday for expiring -> Portland could get ~$44M by renouncing the Grant/Holiday replacement, Rupert, Reath, RWIII, Thybulle, & Wesley [but keeping Sharpe].

If they can trade one of Grant/Holiday for expiring and renounce Sharpe (and the other guys) -> Portland could potentially get ~$60M in cap space.

[DusterBuster]

I don't think the possibility of Sharpe's cap hold falling away is all that remote. If he is extended, this is obviously moot and there is zero chance cap space will be a thing... but if he's not, this could indicate Portland is not all-in on Shaedon. If that is so, it is not hard to imagine them passing on matching a massive offer sheet next summer. If they do not match, then his cap hold is gone, likely renounced as soon as they decide they will not match if they need the room to sign somebody else. And all of this will probably happen quickly, since most deals are worked out during the moratorium.

I don't think this is probable, but it could happen.

This is all I've been trying to say... My limited knowledge of CBA aside, I've only been trying to point out I don't view cap holds as all that punitive since teams plan multiple scenarios ahead of time with them in mind, teams are always aware of the ways to get around them if that unlikely need arises... Hence why they're never brought up in the media (who's speaking to dummies like myself) when even "cap experts" on ESPN discuss NBA free agency.

If cap holds we're so impassable for teams to get around, they would be spoken of in the same breath as the 1st and 2nd aprons are. Instead, cap holds are only ever discussed on places with NBA sicko's like us here.

But I digress, I'm gonna go drool in the corner for the rest of the afternoon.

[zzaj]

I think there is a less than 3% chance Sharpe would ever get waived…especially to sign some phantom, huge impact FA.

Sharpe is arguably the Blazers’ 3rd or 4th best player, and is still young. I can see a world where he becomes a UFA and the Blazers match an offer…in fact this might be the most prudent course, given the state of money in the NBA, but I HIGHLY doubt they would let Sharpe go for nothing.

This is all kind of a moot discussion, anyway…

[DaVoiceMaster]

I think there is a less than 3% chance Sharpe would ever get waived…especially to sign some phantom, huge impact FA.

Sharpe is arguably the Blazers’ 3rd or 4th best player, and is still young. I can see a world where he becomes a UFA and the Blazers match an offer…in fact this might be the most prudent course, given the state of money in the NBA, but I HIGHLY doubt they would let Sharpe go for nothing.

This is all kind of a moot discussion, anyway…

I assume you mean restricted free agent? Unrestricted and he can go wherever he wants.

[DusterBuster]

I think there is a less than 3% chance Sharpe would ever get waived…especially to sign some phantom, huge impact FA.

Sharpe is arguably the Blazers’ 3rd or 4th best player, and is still young. I can see a world where he becomes a UFA and the Blazers match an offer…in fact this might be the most prudent course, given the state of money in the NBA, but I HIGHLY doubt they would let Sharpe go for nothing.

This is all kind of a moot discussion, anyway…

I think it's even less than that percentage... which is why I don't know why the point I was trying to make has devolved into that discussion... By the time Sharpe's cap hold might remotely be an issue, I think the topic will have a clear resolution (either he'll have a new contract or be traded).

I've never once suggested Sharpe would be let go for nothing, yet that for some reason is the topic here and people trying to make that out as what I've been trying to say.

I've said if the "phantom, huge impact FA" were willing to sign in Portland AND the Blazers still for some reason had Sharpe as a cap hold, they would know what they need to do to get said phantom FA. I've also been desperately trying to bring out (and getting ignored at every turn) that teams only have to renounce a cap hold the day a contract is signed. They can navigate FA as though the cap hold is not there and make agreements ignoring cap holds, than only have to renounce players the day contracts get signed.

I wasn't trying to focus on Sharpe or any specific players cap hold, just pointing out that teams clearly are able to navigate around it and plan accordingly because cap holds only matter when they matter (for a significant FA signing). This is a 0.01% chance of happening, I **** get it...

christ.

[DusterBuster]

Right. Meaningful cap space means moving Grant or Holiday AND not extending or matching Shaedon.

To get cap space, it's really an OR.

Portland can get ~$35M in cap space by keeping Grant & Holiday -> and renouncing Sharpe, Rupert, Reath, RWIII, Thybulle, & Wesley.

If they can trade one of Grant/Holiday for expiring -> Portland could get ~$44M by renouncing the Grant/Holiday replacement, Rupert, Reath, RWIII, Thybulle, & Wesley [but keeping Sharpe].

If they can trade one of Grant/Holiday for expiring and renounce Sharpe (and the other guys) -> Portland could potentially get ~$60M in cap space.

Seriously, this is it. I'm just trying to bring out there are multiple options and cap holds don't matter until there is a FA to sign. Blazers can potentially have huge cap space or next to none. If they need huge cap space, they only have to deal with it at that specific moment, but they can operate in FA as though they have it (if there's a specific reason they need too, which there likely won't be)... I have yet to have anyone tell me with my pee-brain CBA knowledge I'm wrong.

[zzaj]

I think there is a less than 3% chance Sharpe would ever get waived…especially to sign some phantom, huge impact FA.

Sharpe is arguably the Blazers’ 3rd or 4th best player, and is still young. I can see a world where he becomes a UFA and the Blazers match an offer…in fact this might be the most prudent course, given the state of money in the NBA, but I HIGHLY doubt they would let Sharpe go for nothing.

This is all kind of a moot discussion, anyway…

I assume you mean restricted free agent? Unrestricted and he can go wherever he wants.

Yep, meant RFA not UFA…sometimes old man brain doesn’t translate to fingers.

[DaVoiceMaster]

I think there is a less than 3% chance Sharpe would ever get waived…especially to sign some phantom, huge impact FA.

Sharpe is arguably the Blazers’ 3rd or 4th best player, and is still young. I can see a world where he becomes a UFA and the Blazers match an offer…in fact this might be the most prudent course, given the state of money in the NBA, but I HIGHLY doubt they would let Sharpe go for nothing.

This is all kind of a moot discussion, anyway…

I assume you mean restricted free agent? Unrestricted and he can go wherever he wants.

Yep, meant RFA not UFA…sometimes old man brain doesn’t translate to fingers.

I'm right there with ya. If it's not the old man brain, it's the fat fingers.

[Wizenheimer]

Right. Meaningful cap space means moving Grant or Holiday AND not extending or matching Shaedon.

To get cap space, it's really an OR.

Portland can get ~$35M in cap space by keeping Grant & Holiday -> and renouncing Sharpe, Rupert, Reath, RWIII, Thybulle, & Wesley.

If they can trade one of Grant/Holiday for expiring -> Portland could get ~$44M by renouncing the Grant/Holiday replacement, Rupert, Reath, RWIII, Thybulle, & Wesley [but keeping Sharpe].

If they can trade one of Grant/Holiday for expiring and renounce Sharpe (and the other guys) -> Portland could potentially get ~$60M in cap space.

I think your numbers are off a bit. I don't believe you have accounted for roster charges at 1.4M a pop....and maybe the 2026 first round pick

but more than that, you are glossing over the Camara situation. If Camara gets extended before next season starts you have to subtract 20M from each of your estimates, after accounting for roster charges. And if the Blazers can't get him on an extension this summer it's kind of a failure. If they can't, in order to keep him from becoming UFA the Blazers will have to cancel the 4th year team option on his contract and submit a 'starter-criteria' QO that will be in the 3.7M range. That's another deduction from cap-space

and if Camara goes out on the market and gets an offer sheet with 30M in base salary, that would torpedo Portland's cap-space below the waterline. Of course, the Blazers could just refuse to match and let Camara walk at the same time they waive Sharpe in this 'dump-everybody-for-the-max-cap-space' world.

I agree with DB in this regard: I don't believe Sharpe's cap-hold is relevant to Blazer plans. They aren't going to renounce him. They may even prefer the cap-hold to his new base-salary. Although, if it ends up the Blazers are 6 or 7M below the cap, they may want to somehow get over the cap if they want to use the non-tax MLE again

[Shem]

Watch on YouTube