Greatest Blazers Ever: Vote for #3: Brandon Roy vs. Maurice Lucas runoff

[Wizenheimer]

Sounds like we agree about the 77 team, just not about the 78 team.

they were the same team...until Walton went down

But where do you draw the line? Does Twardzik get bumped above much better players because he was part of those 2 great, albeit truncated, teams?

you lost me there. I'm not sure why anyone would put Twardzick "above" much better players. The 77 team had 2 great players in Walton and Lucas. Hollins was an all-star level guard who was all-NBA 1st team defense. Gross was a very underrated SF who was perhaps the best of the era at moving without the ball.

But Twardzick was simply a hard-nosed PG who gave maximum effort to compensate for average talent talent. He was a decent defender who threw his body around everywhere...'Pinball'. That's probably why he had to retire so young. He was efficient though. In those two seasons he had about a .670 TS% and about a .630 FTRate. For his career marks, a .618 TS% (4th best ever and it's all bigs ahead of him) and a .643 FT rate. See if you can find any backcourt player who comes close to that

[Soulyss]

Gonna have to vote for Mo Lucas, who was the second most important cog on the championship team.

[Masterfully]

Sounds like we agree about the 77 team, just not about the 78 team.

they were the same team...until Walton went down

But where do you draw the line? Does Twardzik get bumped above much better players because he was part of those 2 great, albeit truncated, teams?

you lost me there. I'm not sure why anyone would put Twardzick "above" much better players. The 77 team had 2 great players in Walton and Lucas. Hollins was an all-star level guard who was all-NBA 1st team defense. Gross was a very underrated SF who was perhaps the best of the era at moving without the ball.

But Twardzick was simply a hard-nosed PG who gave maximum effort to compensate for average talent talent. He was a decent defender who threw his body around everywhere...'Pinball'. That's probably why he had to retire so young. He was efficient though. In those two seasons he had about a .670 TS% and about a .630 FTRate. For his career marks, a .618 TS% (4th best ever and it's all bigs ahead of him) and a .643 FT rate. See if you can find any backcourt player who comes close to that

Then I guess we should consider that the 76/78 team went 10-20 in their final 30 games with a first round defeat.

So are you saying the line is drawn after Lucas? Or are you making a case for Twardzik at #4? I love me some Twardzik BTW.

[Norm2953]

Sounds like we agree about the 77 team, just not about the 78 team.

they were the same team...until Walton went down

But where do you draw the line? Does Twardzik get bumped above much better players because he was part of those 2 great, albeit truncated, teams?

you lost me there. I'm not sure why anyone would put Twardzick "above" much better players. The 77 team had 2 great players in Walton and Lucas. Hollins was an all-star level guard who was all-NBA 1st team defense. Gross was a very underrated SF who was perhaps the best of the era at moving without the ball.

But Twardzick was simply a hard-nosed PG who gave maximum effort to compensate for average talent talent. He was a decent defender who threw his body around everywhere...'Pinball'. That's probably why he had to retire so young. He was efficient though. In those two seasons he had about a .670 TS% and about a .630 FTRate. For his career marks, a .618 TS% (4th best ever and it's all bigs ahead of him) and a .643 FT rate. See if you can find any backcourt player who comes close to that

Old news but imagine this franchise if we had kept Moses Malone from ABA dispersal draft instead of moving
him for a draft pick for the run of the 1977 Blazer championships need not have ended with the injuries to
Walton and Lloyd Neal. If we had kept him he'd easily be the #3 Blazer and with added championships, could be
#1 for he played 20 seasons with 13 ASG appearances. Too bad Blazers owner Larry Weinberg was concerned
about PT for Malone and costs and acted like a small market owner in getting rid of him.

[Agenda42]

#3 Brandon Roy.

Porter was good for a long time, but he was never a franchise player. Roy torched people night in, night out. The Blazers dared to run Blake, Webster, and Przybilla with him and they were still a top 5 offense.

It's also worth mentioning that he had a gigantic impact on Blazer history. There might not even be Blazers without him, and at minimum he was the guy who got the fans back to the Garden.

[jeffhardyfan52]

Vote: Brandon Roy
The way he could take over a game was incredible.
I feel like if his knees didn't give out he could be higher on the list.
He had the mindset of a winner and was a true leader.
Not to mention he was one of the big savior a of the franchise
With out him we could of been the thunder.

[Moonbeam]

I also think we should put the 77 team in perspective. They were very very good during their 19 playiff run, but they were very very average during the regular season. IMO it isn't the best Blazer team ever. ?

I strongly disagree with this

that 1976-77 team was incredibly young...still the youngest to ever win a championship. Hollins and Gross were only in their 2nd seasons. And it had several new players that had only arrived that season: Lucas, Twardzick, Johnny Davis, Herm Gilliam, Corky Calhoun, Robin Jones....all those guys were in their 1st year in Portland

it took time for that team to gel; to learn the offense and get comfortable with each other; to recognize their roles. That didn't happen till towards the end of the season. They won the last 6 games of the regular season and went 14-5 in the playoffs. They were dominating. And they were healthy the following season and the domination continued. They started the season 32-5 and 50-10. In other words, over an 85 game stretch, they were 70-15. I saw that team play, and I saw the Drexler teams play, and the Dunleavy team. There is no doubt in my mind that Walton team was the best Blazer team ever. It was one of the best NBA teams ever. Yes, it failed the test of durability, but it would have beat any other Blazer team in a traditional 7 game series, and I think it would not have been seriously challenged

also, add in the fact that 77 team had easily the best coach

I agree with part of what Masterfully is saying. Luck plays a role in winning a title. Would the 1977 Blazers have been able to beat a team of the caliber/experience of the 1990 Pistons or 1992 Bulls? I'm not so sure. That said, the late-70s Blazers really were up there in terms of the most dominant Blazer teams, when Walton was healthy. Of course, that's the big caveat.

SRS with Walton, including playoffs:

1977: 7.446
1978: 8.896

SRS, including playoffs:

1991: 7.846
1992: 7.319

[a_sensei]

Here's where it gets fun. I'm going to have to vote for Terry Porter. He was the team leader. Statistically he was very good., although there were only about four seasons where he was in the top 5-10 point guards in the league. I feel like his contributions to two finals runs combined with his total body of work gets him the nod.

[PDX MM]

Stats do not always tell the whole story nor does a guy have to play most of his career here in order to be though of as one of the greatest, least to me. My vote for #3 is Scottie Pippen.

[Capn'O]

vote: Brandon Roy

The overall ability gap is wide enough between him and Lucas/Porter/Sheed that it overcomes his short period of dominance, imo. Such a shame he couldn't keep his health.

[Wizenheimer]

Then I guess we should consider that the 76/78 team went 10-20 in their final 30 games with a first round defeat.

wut?

Bill Walton played his final game as a Blazer about 58 games into the season and Lucas got injured as well. Lucas played thru the injury but he struggled down the stretch. Walton won the league MVP that season because of what he did before he was injured. Teams can't lose their best player late in the season, especially one as important as Walton and still be the same. OKC couldn't even make the playoffs without Durant. The Spurs only won their titles when everyone was healthy...one injury to Duncan or Parker or Manu and they were a fairly easy out.

So are you saying the line is drawn after Lucas? Or are you making a case for Twardzik at #4? I love me some Twardzik BTW.

why are you pushing this notion???

I've never said Twardzick was a great all-time Blazer. I put Roy at #3, and I'd have to choose between Porter and Lucas for #4 with guys like Sabonis, Petrie, Pippen, Mychal Thompson, Kiki Vandewegh, Aldridge, Buck, & Kersey in the mix...can't forget Cliffy and Wicks either. I'd list Hollins & Gross before Twardzick and I'm not sure either would make my top-10 or even top-15

[d-train]

I agree with part of what Masterfully is saying. Luck plays a role in winning a title. Would the 1977 Blazers have been able to beat a team of the caliber/experience of the 1990 Pistons or 1992 Bulls? I'm not so sure.

Since were asking questions that can't be answered, would the 90 Pistons or 92 Bulls have been able to beat the 77 Sixers? That Sixers team was stacked with great players. The 77 Sixers would be champions if they weren't unlucky enough to cross paths with Bill Walton the 1 year he was healthy for the playoffs.

[Moonbeam]

I agree with part of what Masterfully is saying. Luck plays a role in winning a title. Would the 1977 Blazers have been able to beat a team of the caliber/experience of the 1990 Pistons or 1992 Bulls? I'm not so sure.

Since were asking questions that can't be answered, would the 90 Pistons or 92 Bulls have been able to beat the 77 Sixers? That Sixers team was stacked with great players. The 77 Sixers would be champions if they weren't unlucky enough to cross paths with Bill Walton the 1 year he was healthy for the playoffs.

Yes, entering the world of hypotheticals is a tricky proposition. I think that 1977 Sixer team had a lot of talent but questionable chemistry/fit. Any time you have arguably the best player in the world in Dr. J assuming a 1B at best role behind George McGinnis (who was later traded), I think it's not an optimal use of said talent. They finished the season with a 3.78 SRS. Meanwhile, Detroit posted a 5.41 SRS in 1990, and Chicago a 10.07 SRS in 1992. I think those teams would certainly beat the 1977 Sixers, Lakers, and Nuggets as well.

[DaVoiceMaster]

Terry Porter

Porter did so much for the Blazers and was very underappreciated due to Clyde Drexler being on the team. I think Porter was quietly the leader of the team back in the late 80's and early 90's. He played both end of the floor, got others involved, could hit his own shot, etc.

[Masterfully]

Then I guess we should consider that the 76/78 team went 10-20 in their final 30 games with a first round defeat.

wut?

Bill Walton played his final game as a Blazer about 58 games into the season and Lucas got injured as well. Lucas played thru the injury but he struggled down the stretch. Walton won the league MVP that season because of what he did before he was injured. Teams can't lose their best player late in the season, especially one as important as Walton and still be the same. OKC couldn't even make the playoffs without Durant. The Spurs only won their titles when everyone was healthy...one injury to Duncan or Parker or Manu and they were a fairly easy out.

Right, and the Blazers were a contender this year before Matthews went down. If we are going to count a 50-10 start, then we should also keep in mind that nothing really came out of it due to bad luck.

So are you saying the line is drawn after Lucas? Or are you making a case for Twardzik at #4? I love me some Twardzik BTW.

why are you pushing this notion???

I've never said Twardzick was a great all-time Blazer. I put Roy at #3, and I'd have to choose between Porter and Lucas for #4 with guys like Sabonis, Petrie, Pippen, Mychal Thompson, Kiki Vandewegh, Aldridge, Buck, & Kersey in the mix...can't forget Cliffy and Wicks either. I'd list Hollins & Gross before Twardzick and I'm not sure either would make my top-10 or even top-15

Is it not obvious why I brought this up? IMO Lucas is getting a huge bump due to one great playoff run. I'm asking if that bump will apply to everyone on that 77 team.

Honestly, I really don't care that much about who gets ranked where, but you did ask with 3 question marks.

[Moonbeam]

Can anybody who is more familiar with Lucas than I am comment on his defense? That's what it will take to sway me, I believe. I can see he won All-NBA Defensive honors in 1977 and 1978. Was he a real standout on that end? I know he was an enforcer, but any insight would be great!

For what it's worth, here are the simple WOWY numbers for Lucas, including HCA and playoffs:

Code: Select all

Season  G With G Without SRS With SRS Without SRS Diff
----------------------------------------------------------
1977       98       3      6.16      -3.87     10.02
1978       74      14      5.26       6.76     -1.49
1979       72      13      1.21       0.81      0.40
1980       41      44     -2.03       0.27     -2.29


I wouldn't put all of my eggs in the WOWY basket (or all that many, really), but those numbers aren't that flattering. I'd need to be convinced that he was defensively dominant to put him over Porter, Sheed, Roy, LMA, etc.

[Wizenheimer]

wut?

Bill Walton played his final game as a Blazer about 58 games into the season and Lucas got injured as well. Lucas played thru the injury but he struggled down the stretch. Walton won the league MVP that season because of what he did before he was injured. Teams can't lose their best player late in the season, especially one as important as Walton and still be the same. OKC couldn't even make the playoffs without Durant. The Spurs only won their titles when everyone was healthy...one injury to Duncan or Parker or Manu and they were a fairly easy out.

Right, and the Blazers were a contender this year before Matthews went down. If we are going to count a 50-10 start, then we should also keep in mind that nothing really came out of it due to bad luck.

last year's Blazers were in no way a true "contender". Not a chance. All that last year's Blazers proved is that the season before they were just good enough to get curb-stomped by a real contender. Comparing last year's Blazers to a 77 team that was the reigning NBA champion simply abandons logic.

and trying to compare the loss of Matthews to the loss of Walton makes it worse

Is it not obvious why I brought this up? IMO Lucas is getting a huge bump due to one great playoff run. I'm asking if that bump will apply to everyone on that 77 team.

Honestly, I really don't care that much about who gets ranked where, but you did ask with 3 question marks.

I think that's very biased perspective. Lucas is getting a bump because he was a great player. Yes, he gets credit for being integral to a team that won a championship, but that's fair...Portland wouldn't have won without him

It's certainly debatable if Lucas is 3rd or maybe even top-5, but trying to dismiss those who rate Lucas #3 by asking if Twardzick is #4 is absurd

[Wizenheimer]

Can anybody who is more familiar with Lucas than I am comment on his defense? That's what it will take to sway me, I believe. I can see he won All-NBA Defensive honors in 1977 and 1978. Was he a real standout on that end? I know he was an enforcer, but any insight would be great!

For what it's worth, here are the simple WOWY numbers for Lucas, including HCA and playoffs:

Code: Select all

Season  G With G Without SRS With SRS Without SRS Diff
----------------------------------------------------------
1977       98       3      6.16      -3.87     10.02
1978       74      14      5.26       6.76     -1.49
1979       72      13      1.21       0.81      0.40
1980       41      44     -2.03       0.27     -2.29


I wouldn't put all of my eggs in the WOWY basket (or all that many, really), but those numbers aren't that flattering. I'd need to be convinced that he was defensively dominant to put him over Porter, Sheed, Roy, LMA, etc.

he was a very good defender IMO. Very physical back in the days when players were allowed to be physical. Moved his feet real well. The one caveat was that there was no 3 point line back then and PF's were a lot more traditional. Some might play in the high post at times, but very few would drag their defender out to the perimeter.

in that title series with Philly, George McGinnis was a premier PF who had averaged around 21.5 points and 11 or 12 rebounds in the regular season. IIRC, Lucas held him to 13 points and 7 rebounds

[Moonbeam]

Can anybody who is more familiar with Lucas than I am comment on his defense? That's what it will take to sway me, I believe. I can see he won All-NBA Defensive honors in 1977 and 1978. Was he a real standout on that end? I know he was an enforcer, but any insight would be great!

For what it's worth, here are the simple WOWY numbers for Lucas, including HCA and playoffs:

Code: Select all

Season  G With G Without SRS With SRS Without SRS Diff
----------------------------------------------------------
1977       98       3      6.16      -3.87     10.02
1978       74      14      5.26       6.76     -1.49
1979       72      13      1.21       0.81      0.40
1980       41      44     -2.03       0.27     -2.29


I wouldn't put all of my eggs in the WOWY basket (or all that many, really), but those numbers aren't that flattering. I'd need to be convinced that he was defensively dominant to put him over Porter, Sheed, Roy, LMA, etc.

he was a very good defender IMO. Very physical back in the days when players were allowed to be physical. Moved his feet real well. The one caveat was that there was no 3 point line back then and PF's were a lot more traditional. Some might play in the high post at times, but very few would drag their defender out to the perimeter.

in that title series with Philly, George McGinnis was a premier PF who had averaged around 21.5 points and 11 or 12 rebounds in the regular season. IIRC, Lucas held him to 13 points and 7 rebounds

Thanks for the feedback. One of the big reasons I started this project was to learn about former players, so I appreciate it! I'll look for some tape on him.

McGinnis seems like he was quite overrated. He seems like he was a selfish player, and his .503 TS in the regular season was pretty pitiful for someone scoring that many points. Mo very well may have slowed him in the playoffs, but he put up 15.6 PPG against Boston, 13.7 PPG against Houston, and 13.0 PPG against Portland on .388 FG. Was McGinnis hurt during the playoffs, or was he just having issues at the time? Boston was a good defensive team that year, but Houston was the worst defense in the league...

[Wizenheimer]

McGinnis was probably overrated. IIRC, most people would have considered him the better PF prior to the series, but not after. Remember, Lucas was only in his 3rd pro season and 1st in the NBA