Blazers/Pelicans/Magic

[Blazers20]

Zion’s contract is no longer guaranteed and you can let him walk. Then you could start the rebuild with Sharpe-Deni-Camara and whoever you draft in 2025.

[dckingsfan]

So you just give up a number #3 pick (Scoot) and #7 pick (Sharpe) just so you can let two players expire and play elsewhere and start a rebuild using capspace in a non-destination city like Portland?

No offense, dckingsfan...but that would get you fired as GM by every owner in the league, and rightfully so.

Depends on your owner and what you are trying to accomplish.

For context, I did post this:

Does that sound like something Cronin would do?

Although it should have been this:

Does that sound like something Cronin and ownership would do?

Once you feel that your #3 pick (Scoot) and #7 pick (Sharpe) aren't all that, you move on.

In context, I don't feel that Cronin has moved on from Ayton/Grant and Simons in any way shape or form. In fact, I think they will extend both Ayton and Simons this offseason (possibly Williams as well).

Make more sense?

Oh I was sniffing what you were stepping in...

A tear it down rebuild primarily built on the idea of having capspace for a team like Portland makes no sense. It's draft or bust for Portland if they want to start over.

Exactly. The idea is you pick up draft capital in this trade and then take on other bad contracts for draft capital. I agree that having capspace with the idea of signing FAs is fools gold for small market teams like Portland.

Now, is this the best trade to do that - smh. I have seen other better trades posted.

[DusterBuster]

This might be a topic worth revisiting. I still don't think the OP's deal works, but the idea of Zion to Portland.

For the right price, I'm still not convinced the Blazers wouldn't roll the dice on adding him to this group, particularly this summer. That relationship between Zion and NO looks burnt. They're going to get a Top 3 pick which will land someone at his position. Blazers seem locked for a 7-10 lottery pick and have some futures to play with, plus they'll have Ayton expiring this summer who would be a good 1-year rental for NO in a rebuild/retool... If the Blazers don't get wildly lucky in the lottery, I'mmmmmm not so sure they wouldn't swing for the fences with Zion to add a star player pop to this team... especially between two teams who have a past history of a good working relationship.

Question obviously just becomes what they're giving up alongside picks and Ayton. As long as none of Scoot, Clingan, Sharpe, Deni or Camara are going out... I would really consider that roll of the dice, even if 3-4 FRPs are going out.

[zzaj]

This might be a topic worth revisiting. I still don't think the OP's deal works, but the idea of Zion to Portland.

For the right price, I'm still not convinced the Blazers wouldn't roll the dice on adding him to this group, particularly this summer. That relationship between Zion and NO looks burnt. They're going to get a Top 3 pick which will land someone at his position. Blazers seem locked for a 7-10 lottery pick and have some futures to play with, plus they'll have Ayton expiring this summer who would be a good 1-year rental for NO in a rebuild/retool... If the Blazers don't get wildly lucky in the lottery, I'mmmmmm not so sure they wouldn't swing for the fences with Zion to add a star player pop to this team... especially between two teams who have a past history of a good working relationship.

Question obviously just becomes what they're giving up alongside picks and Ayton. As long as none of Scoot, Clingan, Sharpe, Deni or Camara are going out... I would really consider that roll of the dice, even if 3-4 FRPs are going out.

Seriously though Duster, why on earth would a rebuilding team trade 3-4 first round picks for a player who will play in less than 50% of games and would never re-sign here? Just for salary relief? If you trade for Zion and cut him for salary relief and miss out on FAs, or Zion eventually walks, you just literally gave away 4-5 FRPs for nothing.

Now it could be that Cronin thinks that a lineup of:

Ant
Sharpe
Grant
Zion
Clingan

...is the future. If that's the case, then G-D help us all.

[DusterBuster]

This might be a topic worth revisiting. I still don't think the OP's deal works, but the idea of Zion to Portland.

For the right price, I'm still not convinced the Blazers wouldn't roll the dice on adding him to this group, particularly this summer. That relationship between Zion and NO looks burnt. They're going to get a Top 3 pick which will land someone at his position. Blazers seem locked for a 7-10 lottery pick and have some futures to play with, plus they'll have Ayton expiring this summer who would be a good 1-year rental for NO in a rebuild/retool... If the Blazers don't get wildly lucky in the lottery, I'mmmmmm not so sure they wouldn't swing for the fences with Zion to add a star player pop to this team... especially between two teams who have a past history of a good working relationship.

Question obviously just becomes what they're giving up alongside picks and Ayton. As long as none of Scoot, Clingan, Sharpe, Deni or Camara are going out... I would really consider that roll of the dice, even if 3-4 FRPs are going out.

Seriously though Duster, why on earth would a rebuilding team trade 3-4 first round picks for a player who will play in less than 50% of games and would never re-sign here? Just for salary relief? If you trade for Zion and cut him for salary relief and miss out on FAs, or Zion eventually walks, you just literally gave away 4-5 FRPs for nothing.

Now it could be that Cronin thinks that a lineup of:

Ant
Sharpe
Grant
Zion
Clingan

...is the future. If that's the case, then G-D help us all.

Alright... before we get into some protracted back and forth here, let me please make one thing clear...

THIS IS NOT THE DIRECTION I WANT THE BLAZERS TO GO IN


Bold. All caps. Preaching it from the rooftops.

I've been very consistent that my direction I wanted for Portland was to go full youth and be Pelicans/Wizards level bad this year for a top 3 odds pick pre-lottery. That's what I wanted, that's clearly not something I'm going to get.

So what this is is an exercise of putting myself in Joe Cronin's brain (scary, I know). You and I think about this as a "rebuilding" team, nothing from current evidence of Joe Cronin's moves has echoed that same vision of what this team is. He clearly is trying to put together another dual timeline retooling roster. His reluctance to trade guys like Grant and Simons makes that abundantly clear.

With alllll that in mind, I don't believe it's unreasonable for Cronin to look at Zion as someone who just needs a change of scenery. He's only 24yo and obviously any deal they make to get him is not to cut him for salary relief, that would completely defeat the purpose of what I think Cronin might be thinking.

For all of our collective (and largely deserved) Cronin criticisms, he's not stupid (not agreeing with someone doesn't make them stupid). He, like us, knows this team needs a star to build around still, they're, as currently constructed, a group of good pieces you want around a star. That alone is enough to win games to keep you out of the bottom of the league when compared to teams like the Wizard who barely have 3 NBA caliber players on the roster. So what do you do from here to get that star? Your young guys are going to keep developing, which will in turn make the team incrementally better, but none of them really seem primed to be a Top 5 guy at their position ever. You also aren't able to get a pick high enough (without insane "throw all your chips on red" luck in the lottery) to get a sure-fire star in the draft (and even when you do, that "sure-fire" star is never a "sure-fire" thing).

Cronin has been and will keep prioritizing proven NBA talent over picks. He made that very clear this summer with the Deni trade. That pick from the Bucks he moved was a valuable asset and really was the price the Wizards wanted to let go of Deni over everything else in that pick from Portland.

So, if you're Cronin, you have that mindset of you want proven talent over lottery picks and you want a guy who fits with the timeline of the rest of the young core... Zion makes sense when looking at the situation through that lens. They've already had exploratory talks about Zion with the Pelicans pre-2023 draft, so there's a history there of talks. He might also be the only realistic way to get a star caliber player back in Portland during the rest of the 20's. We've seen teams go through a decades worth of top 6 picks and come away with absolutely nothing... Sacramento Kings for example. I give Cronin and Schmitz more credit for scouting than the Kings for sure, they were absolutely horrendous with scouting and drafts, but the draft is still a very inexact science and even when you hit on a star, that star takes 2-4 years to come into their own.

Cronin seems interested in skipping those 2-4 growth years and get a young player with NBA experience and talent as his MO for building a roster, and he's willing to trade lottery or potential lottery level picks to get it.

So that's allllll to say I understand you and anyone else's recoil in horror at the idea, but the reality of the Joe Cronin experience is that it's not an idea you should just discount out of hand because you don't like it. Particularly if the Blazers keep winning while "developing", it will encourage him to push the gas a little on the rebuild, retool, or whatever the **** this is...

For example, doing the exercise of putting yourself in how someone else might think, I personally have been ready to hand the keys to Scoot to see what he can do for a bit now. The team invested a ton into him and it's time to **** or get off the pot with him. He's finally showing some real signs now, so what would I do? I would move Simons as fast as I realistically can.

Now... what might Cronin and Co be thinking? They might be less sold on Scoot for various reasons, maybe some things behind the scenes we don't see... Ok, so with that mindset, you still like Simons and maybe Zion could be had but the Pelicans like Scoot... Well, maybe you view Scoot's recent good play as more of an flash in the pan than a sign of things to come. Not every players growth is constantly an upward path and some players don't hit their potential even with a quick high peak over the career chart. So maybe they think cashing out on Scoot now is more similar to moving an unproven lottery pick for a proven talent?

Sorry, but just because we don't like the idea doesn't mean that's now how they're thinking about things... Portland as a franchise only has two legitimate ways to get a star player, Trade or Draft. Free Agency is never ever ever going to be the way unless a guy signs here and blows up unexpectedly. So again, as much as I want to keep developing Scoot, if a star becomes available via trade and Scoot is the player to get a deal done... I can't discount Cronin wouldn't pull that trigger to get a guaranteed star (even one with some depressed value) to Portland.

Also could seriously mean the Blazers resigning Billups - which makes me ill to type.

[zzaj]

Yeah, Duster I know where you stand on the whole rebuild...mostly I guess I was not going deep enough into Cronin's way of thinking.

As far as I know, there have been very few successful rebuilds that didn't really bottom out, especially for small market teams. So to me it shows a very big lack of common sense and history to think like Cronin.

As far as Zion as the cornerstone of your franchise, well...how far has that idea gotten the Pelicans?

[Pattycakes]

ORL: Williams-Simons
NOP: Scoot-Clingan-Grant-Isaac
PHO: Jabari
POR: Black-Zion-Ingram-Bol-1st Round (ORL)

Magic gets another scorer that can create his own shots and get a backup big.

Pelicans get younger pieces to add to Murphy, Jones and Missi.

Scoot-Jones-Murphy-Missi-Clingan

Blazers try to rebuild with Deni-Sharpe-Ingram-Zion. They get to take a look at Ingram and if he doesn’t fit they let him walk along with his $36M and same with Zion as his contract is no longer guaranteed. Ayton will expire during the 2026 season so the Blazers could potentially have cap space available as they continue to rebuild thru the draft and possibly thru free agency. Blazers get a look at Bol Bol and give him minutes to see what he can do with an opportunity for minutes.

Deni-Sharpe-Ingram-Zion-Ayton

Do you hate the Blazers?

[DusterBuster]

Yeah, Duster I know where you stand on the whole rebuild...mostly I guess I was not going deep enough into Cronin's way of thinking.

As far as I know, there have been very few successful rebuilds that didn't really bottom out, especially for small market teams. So to me it shows a very big lack of common sense and history to think like Cronin.

As far as Zion as the cornerstone of your franchise, well...how far has that idea gotten the Pelicans?

Oh again, I agree, that’s why you and I want the bottom out rebuild.

But if you need a star and don’t want to be stuck bottoming out for years like Detroit or Sacramento, the ln you only get stars via trade or draft, and draft is the longer / more crapshoot method.

As for Zion and the Pelicans, I agree… that said, when playing devils advocate here, you can argue the Pelicans have been pretty poorly run for awhile now - even back to the AD years. Ownership has been unstable and cheap, they’ve run through some coaches and generally been slow to make changes necessary… now to un devils advocate here, one could also say that about the Blazers current situation… but I don’t give teams much credit for introspection, so no reason to think of themselves that way.

[zzaj]

Yeah, Duster I know where you stand on the whole rebuild...mostly I guess I was not going deep enough into Cronin's way of thinking.

As far as I know, there have been very few successful rebuilds that didn't really bottom out, especially for small market teams. So to me it shows a very big lack of common sense and history to think like Cronin.

As far as Zion as the cornerstone of your franchise, well...how far has that idea gotten the Pelicans?

Oh again, I agree, that’s why you and I want the bottom out rebuild.

But if you need a star and don’t want to be stuck bottoming out for years like Detroit or Sacramento, the ln you only get stars via trade or draft, and draft is the longer / more crapshoot method.

As for Zion and the Pelicans, I agree… that said, when playing devils advocate here, you can argue the Pelicans have been pretty poorly run for awhile now - even back to the AD years. Ownership has been unstable and cheap, they’ve run through some coaches and generally been slow to make changes necessary… now to un devils advocate here, one could also say that about the Blazers current situation… but I don’t give teams much credit for introspection, so no reason to think of themselves that way.

If you are to get Zion, that's only 50% of a star since he plays less than 50% of games (IIRC it's around 47%). OFC, if he were to play more than that then he wouldn't be available.

I know you and I are on the same page...it just seems like so much foolishness to trade 3-4 FRP+ for 50% of a "Star" that wouldn't want to be here.

[DusterBuster]

Yeah, Duster I know where you stand on the whole rebuild...mostly I guess I was not going deep enough into Cronin's way of thinking.

As far as I know, there have been very few successful rebuilds that didn't really bottom out, especially for small market teams. So to me it shows a very big lack of common sense and history to think like Cronin.

As far as Zion as the cornerstone of your franchise, well...how far has that idea gotten the Pelicans?

Oh again, I agree, that’s why you and I want the bottom out rebuild.

But if you need a star and don’t want to be stuck bottoming out for years like Detroit or Sacramento, the ln you only get stars via trade or draft, and draft is the longer / more crapshoot method.

As for Zion and the Pelicans, I agree… that said, when playing devils advocate here, you can argue the Pelicans have been pretty poorly run for awhile now - even back to the AD years. Ownership has been unstable and cheap, they’ve run through some coaches and generally been slow to make changes necessary… now to un devils advocate here, one could also say that about the Blazers current situation… but I don’t give teams much credit for introspection, so no reason to think of themselves that way.

If you are to get Zion, that's only 50% of a star since he plays less than 50% of games (IIRC it's around 47%). OFC, if he were to play more than that then he wouldn't be available.

I know you and I are on the same page...it just seems like so much foolishness to trade 3-4 FRP+ for 50% of a "Star" that wouldn't want to be here.

Part of where this is coming from is Zion claiming the Pelicans are keeping him out of games he's willing to play in (B2B).

[zzaj]

Oh again, I agree, that’s why you and I want the bottom out rebuild.

But if you need a star and don’t want to be stuck bottoming out for years like Detroit or Sacramento, the ln you only get stars via trade or draft, and draft is the longer / more crapshoot method.

As for Zion and the Pelicans, I agree… that said, when playing devils advocate here, you can argue the Pelicans have been pretty poorly run for awhile now - even back to the AD years. Ownership has been unstable and cheap, they’ve run through some coaches and generally been slow to make changes necessary… now to un devils advocate here, one could also say that about the Blazers current situation… but I don’t give teams much credit for introspection, so no reason to think of themselves that way.

If you are to get Zion, that's only 50% of a star since he plays less than 50% of games (IIRC it's around 47%). OFC, if he were to play more than that then he wouldn't be available.

I know you and I are on the same page...it just seems like so much foolishness to trade 3-4 FRP+ for 50% of a "Star" that wouldn't want to be here.

Part of where this is coming from is Zion claiming the Pelicans are keeping him out of games he's willing to play in (B2B).

Boy, if that's true and verifiable the Pels could find themselves in a pretty bad position in a litigation. You can't legally include work milestone incentives in a contract and then purposefully keep a contractee from reaching those milestones if they can meet the definitions of "work" as set about by the contract.

[DusterBuster]

If you are to get Zion, that's only 50% of a star since he plays less than 50% of games (IIRC it's around 47%). OFC, if he were to play more than that then he wouldn't be available.

I know you and I are on the same page...it just seems like so much foolishness to trade 3-4 FRP+ for 50% of a "Star" that wouldn't want to be here.

Part of where this is coming from is Zion claiming the Pelicans are keeping him out of games he's willing to play in (B2B).

Boy, if that's true and verifiable the Pels could find themselves in a pretty bad position in a litigation. You can't legally include work milestone incentives in a contract and then purposefully keep a contractee from reaching those milestones if they can meet the definitions of "work" as set about by the contract.

Here's the quote directly from Zion...

Watch on YouTube

It's a rough gray area for litigation. There's no real way to prove they're holding him out so he misses milestones when they can point to his legitimate history of injuries (some lack of conditioning in some years)

[Blazers20]

Roll the dice on Zion and Ingram and if it fails you dump both and go full rebuild. You rollout a lineup Deni-Sharpe-Camara-2025 Pick-Ayton (Ayton is expiring 2026) and this lineup will definitely make them bottom dwellers and position them alongside the Wizards for a top 3 worse record in the league.

[Napoleon7]

I’d roll the dice on Zion…as long as the price is right…that price doesn’t include Henderson/Clingan/Sharpe/Camara/Avdija…


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