Ayton

[BlazersBroncos]

First, a correction.

Featuring Ayton to build his trade value was a poor choice of words. Ayton the player is tradeable, his contract is not. Maybe at the trade deadline he can be moved, if, a playoff team has injuries. Proven all-star players with large contracts may get traded. But, the new CBA will make it very difficult to trade role players with large contracts.

Now, for a couple of counter points.

For last season, and 30.8 mpg, Ayton averaged 14.4 point per game, and, 10.2 rebounds per game. Ayton was the only Blazer to average a double double for the entire season.

Ref: efficiency
Ayton's season player efficiency rating (per) was 17.7. The same as Deni's. Not a perfect metric, but one worth consideration.

Yes Ayton has big holes in his game, all of the Blazers do, except Deni. But Ayton plays below his talent level, too much of the time. My thought is, give Ayton one last chance to prove he was worth the #1 pick.

But why? Like, what is Ayton really bringing?

What teams in the league have a high usage big man who isnt absolutely generational?

Who doesnt shoot the 3 OR get to the FT line (DC last season had a FTr of .311 - Ayton has never been better than .252).

A guy who doesnt protect the rim or pass at even an average level (Both supported by advanced stats of 2.9 BLK% and 8.5 AST% last season)?

I dont understand what the mythical Ayton high talent level is? Yes, he is a freak of nature physically. But the game is much, much more than that today. He has never shown passing chops. Has never shown timing on blocks. Has never shown the ability to use finesse, timing, etc to get guys to foul him and get to the FT line.

The guy just isnt that skilled. He rebounds well, he can hit a middie, he is hard to back down defensively and he can go through spurts of finishing well above the rim on PNR. He is a MLE level backup big man.

There is nothing to unlock.

[Wizenheimer]

First, a correction.

Featuring Ayton to build his trade value was a poor choice of words. Ayton the player is tradeable, his contract is not. Maybe at the trade deadline he can be moved, if, a playoff team has injuries. Proven all-star players with large contracts may get traded. But, the new CBA will make it very difficult to trade role players with large contracts.

Now, for a couple of counter points.

For last season, and 30.8 mpg, Ayton averaged 14.4 point per game, and, 10.2 rebounds per game. Ayton was the only Blazer to average a double double for the entire season.

Ref: efficiency
Ayton's season player efficiency rating (per) was 17.7. The same as Deni's. Not a perfect metric, but one worth consideration.

Yes Ayton has big holes in his game, all of the Blazers do, except Deni. But Ayton plays below his talent level, too much of the time. My thought is, give Ayton one last chance to prove he was worth the #1 pick.

But why? Like, what is Ayton really bringing?

What teams in the league have a high usage big man who isnt absolutely generational?

Who doesnt shoot the 3 OR get to the FT line (DC last season had a FTr of .311 - Ayton has never been better than .252).

A guy who doesnt protect the rim or pass at even an average level (Both supported by advanced stats of 2.9 BLK% and 8.5 AST% last season)?

I dont understand what the mythical Ayton high talent level is? Yes, he is a freak of nature physically. But the game is much, much more than that today. He has never shown passing chops. Has never shown timing on blocks. Has never shown the ability to use finesse, timing, etc to get guys to foul him and get to the FT line.

The guy just isnt that skilled. He rebounds well, he can hit a middie, he is hard to back down defensively and he can go through spurts of finishing well above the rim on PNR. He is a MLE level backup big man.

There is nothing to unlock.

well said

he's going to be 27 in two months; he's been in the NBA for 7 seasons. He hasn't improved at all from his rookie season. In his rooke season he had a PER of 20.5; this season it was 17.7. In his rookie season, he had a TS% of .608; this season it was .583. In his rookie season his rebound rate was 18.5%; this season it was 18.2%. In his rookie season his assist rate was 9.6%; this season it was 8.5%

people trash Jerami Grant, with some good reasons. Ayton's career blocked shot rate is 2.7%; Grant's is 3.2% (yes, Grant is a better shot blocker than Ayton). Ayton's career assist rate is 8.6%; Grant's is 9.0%. Ayton's career turnover rate is 11.4%; Grant's 9.8%. But then we know that Ayton is a crappy passer. We also know Ayton doesn't get to the FT line. Ayton's career FT Rate is .189; Grant's is .383

look at Ayton's PER and TS% over the last 4 seasons:

2021-22: PER 21.9....TS% .656
2022-23: PER 19.9....TS% .617
2023-24: PER 18.9....TS% .587
2024-25: PER 17.7....TS% .583

there is nothing in any of those numbers that should make anybody believe he'll become significantly better in his 8th season, even if given a bigger role, at the expense of Clingan's minutes and opportunities.

[oldfishermen]

First, a correction.

Featuring Ayton to build his trade value was a poor choice of words. Ayton the player is tradeable, his contract is not. Maybe at the trade deadline he can be moved, if, a playoff team has injuries. Proven all-star players with large contracts may get traded. But, the new CBA will make it very difficult to trade role players with large contracts.

Now, for a couple of counter points.

For last season, and 30.8 mpg, Ayton averaged 14.4 point per game, and, 10.2 rebounds per game. Ayton was the only Blazer to average a double double for the entire season.

Ref: efficiency
Ayton's season player efficiency rating (per) was 17.7. The same as Deni's. Not a perfect metric, but one worth consideration.

Yes Ayton has big holes in his game, all of the Blazers do, except Deni. But Ayton plays below his talent level, too much of the time. My thought is, give Ayton one last chance to prove he was worth the #1 pick.

But why? Like, what is Ayton really bringing?

What teams in the league have a high usage big man who isnt absolutely generational?

Who doesnt shoot the 3 OR get to the FT line (DC last season had a FTr of .311 - Ayton has never been better than .252).

A guy who doesnt protect the rim or pass at even an average level (Both supported by advanced stats of 2.9 BLK% and 8.5 AST% last season)?

I dont understand what the mythical Ayton high talent level is? Yes, he is a freak of nature physically. But the game is much, much more than that today. He has never shown passing chops. Has never shown timing on blocks. Has never shown the ability to use finesse, timing, etc to get guys to foul him and get to the FT line.

The guy just isnt that skilled. He rebounds well, he can hit a middie, he is hard to back down defensively and he can go through spurts of finishing well above the rim on PNR. He is a MLE level backup big man.

There is nothing to unlock.

well said

he's going to be 27 in two months; he's been in the NBA for 7 seasons. He hasn't improved at all from his rookie season. In his rooke season he had a PER of 20.5; this season it was 17.7. In his rookie season, he had a TS% of .608; this season it was .583. In his rookie season his rebound rate was 18.5%; this season it was 18.2%. In his rookie season his assist rate was 9.6%; this season it was 8.5%

people trash Jerami Grant, with some good reasons. Ayton's career blocked shot rate is 2.7%; Grant's is 3.2% (yes, Grant is a better shot blocker than Ayton). Ayton's career assist rate is 8.6%; Grant's is 9.0%. Ayton's career turnover rate is 11.4%; Grant's 9.8%. But then we know that Ayton is a crappy passer. We also know Ayton doesn't get to the FT line. Ayton's career FT Rate is .189; Grant's is .383

look at Ayton's PER and TS% over the last 4 seasons:

2021-22: PER 21.9....TS% .656
2022-23: PER 19.9....TS% .617
2023-24: PER 18.9....TS% .587
2024-25: PER 17.7....TS% .583

there is nothing in any of those numbers that should make anybody believe he'll become significantly better in his 8th season, even if given a bigger role, at the expense of Clingan's minutes and opportunities.

Aytons TS% .583 is better than Simons TS% .557. Take the shots away from Simons.

I'm all for developing Clingan, I believe he has all-star potential talent. BUT. Do you believe he is ready to play 30+ mpg? Maybe in another year he will be. Until then, we need Ayton.

[Sinobas]

I think Ayton's crappiness is over-stated by many fans. He is not a terrible player, he's just really over-paid and under-achieves what he should be based on his physical abilities.

He shot 82% at the rim last year, which is tremendous. Shaquille O'Neal's career best was 79% for a single season. He's a solid rebounder and has a good mid-range shot. But as other's have said, he doesn't bring it defensively. That's why Cronin drafted Clingan.

Another critical weakness, is that even though his FG% is really good, he gets to the FT line an absurdly few times per game. He averages under 2 FTs per 36 minutes, which lowers his efficiency. Most centers get 2-3x that amount even though they aren't used as offensive weapons like Ayton is.

[tester551]

I think Ayton's crappiness is over-stated by many fans. He is not a terrible player, he's just really over-paid and under-achieves what he should be based on his physical abilities.

He shot 82% at the rim last year, which is tremendous. Shaquille O'Neal's career best was 79% for a single season. He's a solid rebounder and has a good mid-range shot. But as other's have said, he doesn't bring it defensively. That's why Cronin drafted Clingan.

Another critical weakness, is that even though his FG% is really good, he gets to the FT line an absurdly few times per game. He averages under 2 FTs per 36 minutes, which lowers his efficiency. Most centers get 2-3x that amount even though they aren't used as offensive weapons like Ayton is.

By all indications, he's a great teammate too.

What he brings to the table is worthy of a backup C role. If he was paid $15-$18M per, I'd love to keep him around.

[Wizenheimer]

I'm all for developing Clingan, I believe he has all-star potential talent. BUT. Do you believe he is ready to play 30+ mpg? Maybe in another year he will be. Until then, we need Ayton.

well, considering that Clingan averaged 27 minutes a game over the last 21 games, and he played strong big man basketball while doing so, yes, I think he could average close enough to 30 minutes to count as 30 minutes

I believe Clingan should be starting. If you don't have a generational C like Jokic or Embiid, or a Jokic-lite like Sabonis, what you need at C in the NBA is a C like Clingan. You don't need a possession wasting C like Ayton. Clingan is a much better rebounder and rim protector than Ayton. Clingan intimidates a lot more shots than Ayton and has a much bigger impact in the paint, on both ends of the floor

PER: Ayton 17.7....Clingan 17.4
Usage: Ayton 19.4%....Clingan 14.2%

(PER is heavily influenced by usage; Ayton has a 1.7% higher PER while having a 37% higher usage These two sets of numbers favor Clingan significantly)

TS%: Ayton .583....Clingan .574

(after all the chatter about how great a shooter Ayton is, that he only has a slight advantage in TS% is very telling. But his strength is shooting mid-range which is an inefficient shot, coupled with his anemic FT Rate)

Rebound Rate: Ayton 18.2%....Clingan 21.6%
Off Reb Rate: Ayton 10.9%....Clingan 17.3%
Block%: Ayton 2.9%....Clingan 7.5%

(these are critical skills for a C. Clingan didn't quite qualify by total minutes (according to BBREF), but if he did, he would have been 6th in TRB%; 1st in Off Reb%; and 2nd in Block%. He's already elite in critical big man skills. Ayton isn't elite anywhere)

winshare/48: Ayton .113....Clingan .144
BPM: Ayton -0.7....Clingan -0.3

I'm convinced Clingan is already a better modern NBA C than Clingan; and he should be starting while averaging 27-30 minutes. His primary limitation is that he's a drop-coverage C, like Gobert. But then, so is Ayton.

if Clingan is averaging 28 minutes, and the Blazers are matching other teams small-ball line-ups for 7-8 minutes a game, that leaves 12-15 minutes for backup C's. Portland does not "need" a 12-15 minute backup C at a 35M salary

[BlazersBroncos]

I'm all for developing Clingan, I believe he has all-star potential talent. BUT. Do you believe he is ready to play 30+ mpg? Maybe in another year he will be. Until then, we need Ayton.

well, considering that Clingan averaged 27 minutes a game over the last 21 games, and he played strong big man basketball while doing so, yes, I think he could average close enough to 30 minutes to count as 30 minutes

I believe Clingan should be starting. If you don't have a generational C like Jokic or Embiid, or a Jokic-lite like Sabonis, what you need at C in the NBA is a C like Clingan. You don't need a possession wasting C like Ayton. Clingan is a much better rebounder and rim protector than Ayton. Clingan intimidates a lot more shots than Ayton and has a much bigger impact in the paint, on both ends of the floor

PER: Ayton 17.7....Clingan 17.4
Usage: Ayton 19.4%....Clingan 14.2%
(PER is heavily influenced by usage; Ayton has a 1.7% higher PER while having a 37% higher usage These two sets of numbers favor Clingan significantly)

TS%: Ayton .583....Clingan .574
(after all the chatter about how great a shooter Ayton is, that he only has a slight advantage in TS% is very telling. But his strength is shooting mid-range which is an inefficient shot, coupled with his anemic FT Rate)

Rebound Rate: Ayton 18.2%....Clingan 21.6%
Off Reb Rate: Ayton 10.9%....Clingan 17.3%
Block%: Ayton 2.9%....Clingan 7.5%
(these are critical skills for a C. Clingan didn't quite qualify by total minutes (according to BBREF), but if he did, he would have been 6th in TRB%; 1st in Off Reb%; and 2nd in Block%. He's already elite in critical big man skills. Ayton isn't elite anywhere)

winshare/48: Ayton .113....Clingan .144
BPM: Ayton -0.7....Clingan -0.3

I'm convinced Clingan is already a better modern NBA C than Clingan; and he should be starting while averaging 27-30 minutes. His primary limitation is that he's a drop-coverage C, like Gobert. But then, so is Ayton.

if Clingan is averaging 28 minutes, and the Blazers are matching other teams small-ball line-ups for 7-8 minutes a game, that leaves 12-15 minutes for backup C's. Portland does not "need" a 12-15 minute backup C at a 35M salary

Amen. What we need behind DC is someone who can play small-ball C when the opposition plays 5-out. Someone like Fleming or Yaxel could fill that role potentially. Ayton is absolutley not that guy. We dont need a 7 foot tall Montrez Harell as the backup.

DC is better than Ayton already - that much is for sure based on the eye test, the teams play with him on the court and the advanced stats.

One thing that REALLY stood out to me was the FTr of DC vs DA. While DC has tons of room to grow on offense he has already shown a penchant for getting to the FT line - he has a .311 FTr while Ayton posted a uniquely abysmal .128.

[Walton1one]

This draft just happens to have some interesting\athletic bigs like: Newell, Beringer, Condon (if he stays), Markovic, Lendeborg, Fleming,

[tester551]

This draft just happens to have some interesting\athletic bigs like: Newell, Beringer, Condon (if he stays), Markovic, Lendeborg, Fleming,

Yang too.

[zzaj]

I'm all for developing Clingan, I believe he has all-star potential talent. BUT. Do you believe he is ready to play 30+ mpg? Maybe in another year he will be. Until then, we need Ayton.

well, considering that Clingan averaged 27 minutes a game over the last 21 games, and he played strong big man basketball while doing so, yes, I think he could average close enough to 30 minutes to count as 30 minutes

I believe Clingan should be starting. If you don't have a generational C like Jokic or Embiid, or a Jokic-lite like Sabonis, what you need at C in the NBA is a C like Clingan. You don't need a possession wasting C like Ayton. Clingan is a much better rebounder and rim protector than Ayton. Clingan intimidates a lot more shots than Ayton and has a much bigger impact in the paint, on both ends of the floor

PER: Ayton 17.7....Clingan 17.4
Usage: Ayton 19.4%....Clingan 14.2%
(PER is heavily influenced by usage; Ayton has a 1.7% higher PER while having a 37% higher usage These two sets of numbers favor Clingan significantly)

TS%: Ayton .583....Clingan .574
(after all the chatter about how great a shooter Ayton is, that he only has a slight advantage in TS% is very telling. But his strength is shooting mid-range which is an inefficient shot, coupled with his anemic FT Rate)

Rebound Rate: Ayton 18.2%....Clingan 21.6%
Off Reb Rate: Ayton 10.9%....Clingan 17.3%
Block%: Ayton 2.9%....Clingan 7.5%
(these are critical skills for a C. Clingan didn't quite qualify by total minutes (according to BBREF), but if he did, he would have been 6th in TRB%; 1st in Off Reb%; and 2nd in Block%. He's already elite in critical big man skills. Ayton isn't elite anywhere)

winshare/48: Ayton .113....Clingan .144
BPM: Ayton -0.7....Clingan -0.3

I'm convinced Clingan is already a better modern NBA C than Clingan; and he should be starting while averaging 27-30 minutes. His primary limitation is that he's a drop-coverage C, like Gobert. But then, so is Ayton.

if Clingan is averaging 28 minutes, and the Blazers are matching other teams small-ball line-ups for 7-8 minutes a game, that leaves 12-15 minutes for backup C's. Portland does not "need" a 12-15 minute backup C at a 35M salary

Amen. What we need behind DC is someone who can play small-ball C when the opposition plays 5-out. Someone like Fleming or Yaxel could fill that role potentially. Ayton is absolutley not that guy. We dont need a 7 foot tall Montrez Harell as the backup.

DC is better than Ayton already - that much is for sure based on the eye test, the teams play with him on the court and the advanced stats.

One thing that REALLY stood out to me was the FTr of DC vs DA. While DC has tons of room to grow on offense he has already shown a penchant for getting to the FT line - he has a .311 FTr while Ayton posted a uniquely abysmal .128.

The scary thing is that one of the things that Clingan is already good at statistically, is rebounding--he's only scratched the surface of what he could be as a rebounder. I think he still has plenty of ceiling left as a shotblocker too--as his defensive nuance and processing speeds up with experience.

[Tim Lehrbach]

Respectfully, I'm not buying the notion that Ayton is good-but-overpaid. It's true that one can squint hard enough to see a solid role player if you extract his shortcomings and emphasize only his strengths, but that isn't how this works: the whole player has to be on the court, not just the good parts. Wiz and BB covered this well enough already, so I won't belabor the point. I simply do not want a player who is that fundamentally unsound on the Blazers.

[Wizenheimer]

What he brings to the table is worthy of a backup C role. If he was paid $15-$18M per, I'd love to keep him around.

backup C's:

Steven Adams 12.6M
Jaylin Williams 2M
Jaxson Hayes 2.5M
Deandre Jordan 2.1M
Naz Reid 14M
Drew Eubanks 5M
Kevon Looney 8M
Jay Huff 2.1M
Valunciunas 9.9M
Daniel Gafford 13.4M
Mason Plumlee 2.1M
Bismack Biyombo 700K
Kelly Olynyk 12.8M
Kyle Filipowski 3M
Tristian Thompson 2.1M
Luke Kornet 2.1M
Mitchell Ronbinson 14.3M
Thomas Bryant 2.1M
Jericho Sims 2.1M
Isaiah Stewart 15M
Goga Bitadze 9M
Clint Capela 22M
Jalen Smith 8.6M
Ke'lel Ware 4.2M
Jonathon Mogbo 1.9M
Dayron Sharpe 4M
Andre Drummond 5M
Jusuf Nurkic 18.1M

that's 28 backup C's. Only 8 have salaries of 10M or more. 16 of 28 have salaries of 5M or less. 10 have salaries of 3M or less. The average salary for a backup C is 7.1M, If you toss out the salaries of Capela (expired) and Nurkic (Olshey), the average backup C salary is 6.1M

and you're ok with paying Ayton as much as 18M? The cost/benefit equation with that guy is way out of whack

[HoopsFanAZ]

[…]
Amen. What we need behind DC is someone who can play small-ball C when the opposition plays 5-out. Someone like Fleming or Yaxel could fill that role potentially. Ayton is absolutley not that guy. We dont need a 7 foot tall Montrez Harell as the backup.

DC is better than Ayton already - that much is for sure based on the eye test, the teams play with him on the court and the advanced stats.

One thing that REALLY stood out to me was the FTr of DC vs DA. While DC has tons of room to grow on offense he has already shown a penchant for getting to the FT line - he has a .311 FTr while Ayton posted a uniquely abysmal .128.

The stat compilations — as usual — are well done on this board. +1’s all around.
DA’s idling defensive motor doesn’t make use of his physicality — and not a full comparison to Meyers Leonard — but only when another center really bodied either one do they respond in kind. DA doesn’t dunk everything nor does he get to the line or seem to want to. Like a 7’ CJ. And when he does play with aggression, it changes the equation quickly.

If the Bucks want to capitalize on their generational superstar — which they should — then an unorthodox trade (translation: mildly insane) takes a shot from a different angle:

Ayton + Simons = Dame + Bobby Portis + 2031 1st.

Lopez can still play but not big minutes in his late 30’s. Ayton loves the midrange giving room for Giannis. Ant as Dame-Lite is a fair replacement given his relative youth. Portland gets Portis as a capable, back-up 4/5 who hits from 3 at age 30 on his p-opt year. And a distant, post Giannis-pick. Milwaukee gets two actual, athletic starters, younger, on EC contracts. If it works, they keep Giannis. If not so much, they can easily pivot.

I understand if others don’t like it for PTD, but I like the combination of immediate, functional help from Portis (whose cost to potentially re-up in a year isn’t prohibitive) and Dame back in a year, and draft capital … and Ayton and Ant gone. And I’m not concerned about missing out on potential cap room following next season since it hasn’t helped that much in the past. Long-term money is NOT tied up. It is unorthodox …

[Butter]

I'm all for developing Clingan, I believe he has all-star potential talent. BUT. Do you believe he is ready to play 30+ mpg? Maybe in another year he will be. Until then, we need Ayton.

well, considering that Clingan averaged 27 minutes a game over the last 21 games, and he played strong big man basketball while doing so, yes, I think he could average close enough to 30 minutes to count as 30 minutes

I believe Clingan should be starting. If you don't have a generational C like Jokic or Embiid, or a Jokic-lite like Sabonis, what you need at C in the NBA is a C like Clingan. You don't need a possession wasting C like Ayton. Clingan is a much better rebounder and rim protector than Ayton. Clingan intimidates a lot more shots than Ayton and has a much bigger impact in the paint, on both ends of the floor

PER: Ayton 17.7....Clingan 17.4
Usage: Ayton 19.4%....Clingan 14.2%
(PER is heavily influenced by usage; Ayton has a 1.7% higher PER while having a 37% higher usage These two sets of numbers favor Clingan significantly)

TS%: Ayton .583....Clingan .574
(after all the chatter about how great a shooter Ayton is, that he only has a slight advantage in TS% is very telling. But his strength is shooting mid-range which is an inefficient shot, coupled with his anemic FT Rate)

Rebound Rate: Ayton 18.2%....Clingan 21.6%
Off Reb Rate: Ayton 10.9%....Clingan 17.3%
Block%: Ayton 2.9%....Clingan 7.5%
(these are critical skills for a C. Clingan didn't quite qualify by total minutes (according to BBREF), but if he did, he would have been 6th in TRB%; 1st in Off Reb%; and 2nd in Block%. He's already elite in critical big man skills. Ayton isn't elite anywhere)

winshare/48: Ayton .113....Clingan .144
BPM: Ayton -0.7....Clingan -0.3

I'm convinced Clingan is already a better modern NBA C than Clingan; and he should be starting while averaging 27-30 minutes. His primary limitation is that he's a drop-coverage C, like Gobert. But then, so is Ayton.

if Clingan is averaging 28 minutes, and the Blazers are matching other teams small-ball line-ups for 7-8 minutes a game, that leaves 12-15 minutes for backup C's. Portland does not "need" a 12-15 minute backup C at a 35M salary

Amen. What we need behind DC is someone who can play small-ball C when the opposition plays 5-out. Someone like Fleming or Yaxel could fill that role potentially. Ayton is absolutley not that guy. We dont need a 7 foot tall Montrez Harell as the backup.

DC is better than Ayton already - that much is for sure based on the eye test, the teams play with him on the court and the advanced stats.

One thing that REALLY stood out to me was the FTr of DC vs DA. While DC has tons of room to grow on offense he has already shown a penchant for getting to the FT line - he has a .311 FTr while Ayton posted a uniquely abysmal .128.

Agreed, a stretch 4/5. This is part of the reason I'm intrigued with Asa Newell

[Walton1one]

Yeah that is what intrigues me about Newell, as well, little smaller than I thought, like him as a small ball center not so much as a PF, unless he shoots

I do think this would be a good draft to go after a b/u center

Ayton is likely here for 1 more year, POR is going to need his salary/cap space to resign Camara & Deni, especially if they resign Simons (please no)

Reath is old & Williams unreliable, getting a late 1st or an early 2nd could be a good move

[Pattycakes]

If Ayton can get 20 shots per game at around 15 feet and closer could he score close to 25 ppg? He shoots about 60% from the field career wise. I’d like to see Ayton iso and post up on the block more. Could Chauncey bring in Ben and Rasheed Wallace to work with Ayton or could Ayton work with Olajuwon in the offseason like what Giannis has done in the past? How can Chauncey motivate Ayton? Ayton has average 16 ppg for his career on 12 shots per game, would getting more shots motivate him?

Blazers don’t need 25 ppg DA. They need reliable “he will always be our constant” DA.

Sometimes could be 6 points and 15 boards. Sometimes maybe 25 and 5 boards. He needs to be a consistent presence and that’s ALL we need from him. He can absolutely be an X factor, and I can see us keeping him with DC long term. He really has the bones of a perfect vet for this team. I love him.

Eternal pessimists F off. I rebuke your ignorance and energy on sight

[DusterBuster]

If Ayton can get 20 shots per game at around 15 feet and closer could he score close to 25 ppg? He shoots about 60% from the field career wise. I’d like to see Ayton iso and post up on the block more. Could Chauncey bring in Ben and Rasheed Wallace to work with Ayton or could Ayton work with Olajuwon in the offseason like what Giannis has done in the past? How can Chauncey motivate Ayton? Ayton has average 16 ppg for his career on 12 shots per game, would getting more shots motivate him?

Blazers don’t need 25 ppg DA. They need reliable “he will always be our constant” DA.

Sometimes could be 6 points and 15 boards. Sometimes maybe 25 and 5 boards. He needs to be a consistent presence and that’s ALL we need from him. He can absolutely be an X factor, and I can see us keeping him with DC long term. He really has the bones of a perfect vet for this team. I love him.

Eternal pessimists F off. I rebuke your ignorance and energy on sight

Yeah, while I’m not on the bash DA train as most, his inconsistency for being an impact player is just infuriating. When he’s on he’s actually massively impactful, when he’s not… I might as well be the starting C.

[Tim Lehrbach]

Nearly every NBA player's best moments are great. Doesn't make them good NBA players. Tracy Murray, Tony Delk, and Corey Brewer each scored 50 points in a game.

And, the counter to "if Ayton wasn't paid so much he'd be fine" is "if Ayton wasn't a top draft pick he'd be accepted by all as the empty calories he is."

[Tim Lehrbach]

Eternal pessimists F off. I rebuke your ignorance and energy on sight

You won't find many around here who were more optimistic and enthusiastic about the Roy and Dame eras than I was. I don't dislike Ayton, and this roster altogether, simply because I am an eternal pessimist, but because I think they suck. You love Ayton. I do not. Both are just opinions.

[JasonStern]

Boo Ayton. Ayton is the worst!
Okay. So we keep an unhappy and injury prone Nurkić, and miss out on trading for Camara. How does that work out?

that's 28 backup C's. Only 8 have salaries of 10M or more. 16 of 28 have salaries of 5M or less. 10 have salaries of 3M or less. The average salary for a backup C is 7.1M, If you toss out the salaries of Capela (expired) and Nurkic (Olshey), the average backup C salary is 6.1M

and you're ok with paying Ayton as much as 18M? The cost/benefit equation with that guy is way out of whack

And every one of those 28 backup centers have worse metrics than Ayton. None of them had stretches of 20ppg/10rpg games.
Now, you can argue for most of the stats that Ayton had more minutes and a higher usage rate.
And you can argue that Clingan is ready and paying that much of the cap for what you hope is a backup C is a terrible use of the cap.
I think $18M is high. But he's proven worthy of the non-tax payer MLE.
Ayton haters just can't get past that he was a former #1 pick that is currently paid $35.5M next season. If he was drafted mid-1st round and making $12-13M, he'd get the Timelord/RoLo love.

And, the counter to "if Ayton wasn't paid so much he'd be fine" is "if Ayton wasn't a top draft pick he'd be accepted by all as the empty calories he is."

You're doing that bad arguing logic thing smart people name something fancy sounding that Wizenheimer calls people out on. No Ayton defender on here has argued that he's an elite center. His defenders have argued he's MLE tier. It's his haters that are crying that he's not Jokić tier, then using that to argue that they are right despite nobody making that argument. The closest player Wizenheimer came up with in his list was a 31 year old Clint Capela that still made $22M last season.

Simons haters pull the same crap. "HE'S NOT DAME!" Okay. That doesn't mean he's not an MLE tier player. I support Simons as well (at an MLE contract), and my argument has always been that he's a smaller Jamal Crawford.

Both are nice pieces to have on an NBA team provided they don't limit the rest of the roster due to cap constraints from being overpaid. Both pretty much are what they are. Both are young enough to play for several more seasons. Role players. If you're expecting more, explain why and where that idea came from.