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Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup

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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#201 » by BNM » Wed May 31, 2023 4:47 pm

m0ng0 wrote:Yeah 21 per and the guy sucks...and he is 23. Nobody wants that do they? Find a coach who can put these pieces together. Very creative figure out how to make a small lineup work. DiAntoni comes to mind.


Simons will be 24 in 8 days and is about to enter his 6th NBA season. Can we please stop pretending he is still some baby-faced teenager rippling with untapped potential? He is a veteran player who can score on high volume shooting at average efficiency, but does nothing else well.

Yes, scoring is a valuable skill, but he does so at league average efficiency (his .581 TS% is exactly the league average). This is why I think he'd make a GREAT 6th man on a playoff team. It's why Vinnie Johnson was so valuable to the Bad Boys Piston and why Pop brought Manu off the bench (and Manu was also a great defender - which Ant is not and never will be).

Yes, people "want" that, but that doesn't mean they are willing to give up a great 2-way starter to get it. He could be great as part of a package deal for such a player, but not straight up and it would have to be the right team.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#202 » by m0ng0 » Wed May 31, 2023 5:14 pm

Compare Dame stats at 23 to Simons...they are closer than you think. I'm not saying he is the second coming but he is a damn good player.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#203 » by Sinobas » Wed May 31, 2023 5:21 pm

Anyone that puts up enough shots is going to have a high scoring average. The question is how efficient are you, and what else do you bring to the table. Simons doesn't really bring anything to the table aside from scoring with mediocre efficiency. If he could get to the FT line more, he'd at least be a + in the efficiency category.

I'd like to package him with #23 to get a decent PF.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#204 » by BlazersBroncos » Wed May 31, 2023 6:25 pm

m0ng0 wrote:Compare Dame stats at 23 to Simons...they are closer than you think. I'm not saying he is the second coming but he is a damn good player.


He is a damn good scorer in the same class as Herro, Poole, Clarkson.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#205 » by JasonStern » Wed May 31, 2023 6:31 pm

DusterBuster wrote:
The Sebastian Express wrote:
DusterBuster wrote:
I'm sorry, but this handwringing over contacts and salary is kind of getting out of control. I get the thinking, but most of you are talking about this like if the Blazers made a move for one of these high priced players, they couldn't move them again in the future.

Also... Scoot at SF?!


I don't think he's indicating Scoot at small forward, but rather that rotation of players overall. As you can see, he has six players. While we did play six players that one time, I don't think the league would love it if we did it for eighty-two games.


Yeah, I totally misread that based on how the players were lined up (PG to C).


Completely understandable given how our talent drops off as the position gets larger.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#206 » by BNM » Wed May 31, 2023 6:42 pm

m0ng0 wrote:Compare Dame stats at 23 to Simons...they are closer than you think. I'm not saying he is the second coming but he is a damn good player.


Counting stats, perhaps, but 23-year old Dame blows away 23-year old Ant in advanced stats and impact metrics.

Dame at 23:
PER = 18.6
WS = 9.3
WS/48 = .157
VORP = 3.9

Ant at 23:
PER = 14.8
WS = 2.5
WS/48 = .054
VORP = 0.5

Dame was an all star at 23. Ant wasn't close.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#207 » by m0ng0 » Wed May 31, 2023 7:10 pm

I guess normal stats like points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, fg% 3pt% turnovers don't matter.

Fair enough trade him for Cody Zeller and be done with the arguments... So glad Dame peaked at 23
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#208 » by The Sebastian Express » Wed May 31, 2023 8:10 pm

There's a significant difference in how well they ran teams at the same age. No one here is saying Simons is terrible or some end of bench guy, we're saying he has some flaws - like every player!! - but those flaws only highlight and put pressure on how redundant he is to Dame in many other areas and doesn't exceed (like in defense, if he was a good to great defender this is a whole different conversation - and to be fair a whole higher price he's being paid) where Dame has weaknesses.

He would be a good sixth man bench scorer. But he's not playing that role. There doesn't seem to be a desire to play him in that role - though if he's still here next year, Simons that is, Shaedon may force that to happen.

We are saying it's ideal to capitalize on the good portions of his game to either try to find an upgrade in the frontcourt or to try to find more compatible backcourt partners for Dame.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#209 » by Wizenheimer » Wed May 31, 2023 8:22 pm

Effigy wrote:
m0ng0 wrote:Yeah 21 per and the guy sucks...and he is 23. Nobody wants that do they? Find a coach who can put these pieces together. Very creative figure out how to make a small lineup work. DiAntoni comes to mind.


That’s who I wanted last time. But dame wanted the former player.


who are you talking about?

m0ng0 wrote:Yeah 21 per and the guy sucks...and he is 23. Nobody wants that do they? Find a coach who can put these pieces together. Very creative figure out how to make a small lineup work. DiAntoni comes to mind.


I'm assuming you're talking about Simons?

what exactly does Simons do well? He sure doesn't do anything at an elite level. I guess you can say he shoots three's well, but what exactly does that mean? He finished 71st among qualified players (on pace for 82 made). Batum and Porzingis were better

other than that, what does he do to any level above average? He's got decent handles, but he doe NOT have good court vision when using those handles. He has never demonstrated any consistent efficiency at passing or facilitating. He's not exactly one-dimensional on offense, but at best, he's only offered hints of other dimensions besides perimeter shooting

out of the 15 Blazers who played 20 games or more this season, Ant was 15th at the rate of attempts at the rim. Less than 17% of his shots were at the rim. Which probably explains why he has such a poor FT Rate

so, to summarisze his offense: he's a bit above average as a 3 point shooter, and above average in the mid-range. He lacks any consistent PG or faclilitation skills. He's a poor rebounder

and as we all know, he is absolutely terrible on defense. Out of the 24 Blazers who played last season, Ant was 24th in defensive rating and 22nd in DBPM. He may be the worst perimeter defender Portland has had since Nolan Smith. He's a sieve.

put it all together and what might it mean: He has PG size without PG ability. He's an undersized SG who does not have the size or defense to guard NBA SF's, so he's not a wing; not in length and certainly not in versatility. He doesn't attack the rim or get to the FT line. He's not 3&D because he is a big negative on D and he's only a lower-case 3. He's a defensive liability

among qualified players statistically:

PER - 108th out of 190 (14.8 when NBA average is 15.0)
TS% - 107th out of 198
FTRate - 182nd out of 243
assist rate - 70th out of 190
rebound rate - 189th out of 190
winshares/48 - 165th out of 190 (.054 when NBA average is .100)
BPM - 142nd out of 190

Salary - 58th

so, he's 58th in salary but only in the top-100 in one of those categories above and that's only 70th. If you composite those 7 categories, than Ant is 58th in salary but 138th in the composite. So yeah, he's overpaid by a significant amount

before the season started I was all in favor of giving the Dame/Ant pairing a chance to see if it wouldn't be a repeat of the FAILED Dame/CJ pairing. I thought Ant was different enough from CJ to make it work. But he's not. He's best suited as a 6th man when you don't need the 6th man to provide any defense. But he's too expensive for a 6th man; he should be making around 15M/year instead of the 26M he'll be making the next 3 years. He's 24 and will be entering his 6th season. there's a little hope for some upside, but Ant is getting pretty close to the 'what-you-see-is-what-you-get' plateau. And what I want to see is Ant on another team
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#210 » by BNM » Wed May 31, 2023 9:15 pm

m0ng0 wrote:I guess normal stats like points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, fg% 3pt% turnovers don't matter.


Said absolutely no one in this thread...

But, if you prefer to ignore defense and efficiency:

Ant:
MPG = 35.0
TRB/G = 2.6
AST/G = 4.1
STL/G = 0.7
BLK/G = 0.2
FG% = .447
3FG% = .377

Derrick White:
MPG = 28.3
TRB/G = 3.6
AST/G = 3.9
STL/G = 0.7
BLK/G = 0.9
FG% = .462
3FG% = .381

The ONLY thing Ant does better is score more, and that's only because he takes a LOT more shots.

White gets more rebounds, nearly as many assists, the same number of steals, way more blocks in significantly less playing time while also shooting better FG% and 3FG%.

No one is saying Ant can't score, but I am saying that Derrick White does absolutely everything else better, which makes him a much better fit next to Dame than Ant is.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#211 » by mighty_duck » Wed May 31, 2023 11:02 pm

BNM wrote:
m0ng0 wrote:...
Ant:
3FG% = .377

Derrick White:
..
3FG% = .381

No one is saying Ant can't score, but I am saying that Derrick White does absolutely everything else better, which makes him a much better fit next to Dame than Ant is.

Buy high AND sell low in the same trade proposal? :)
White shot well this year, but shot miserably the prior two seasons (.312 and .346 from 3).
Ant shot well this year, but shot at an elite level the prior two seasons (.405 .426 from 3).
A regression to the mean for both would be expected next season.

That said, White's defense and husstle would be a welcome change from Ant's apathy.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#212 » by BNM » Wed May 31, 2023 11:12 pm

mighty_duck wrote:
BNM wrote:
m0ng0 wrote:...
Ant:
3FG% = .377

Derrick White:
..
3FG% = .381

No one is saying Ant can't score, but I am saying that Derrick White does absolutely everything else better, which makes him a much better fit next to Dame than Ant is.

Buy high AND sell low in the same trade proposal? :)
White shot well this year, but shot miserably the prior two seasons (.312 and .346 from 3).
Ant shot well this year, but shot at an elite level the prior two seasons (.405 .426 from 3).
A regression to the mean for both would be expected next season.

That said, White's defense and husstle would be a welcome change from Ant's apathy.


Speaking of hustle...

The NBA Hustle Award:

The award is decided using a metric known as "hustle stats," which tracks defensive and offensive efforts such as diving for loose balls, taking charges, deflections, setting screens, and contesting shots.

The only multi-time winner is Marcus Smart, who has won the award three times.

Until two days ago, I didn't even know this award existed. Now, I know Marcus Smart has won it 3 times, including this year and last.

https://www.nba.com/news/2022-23-nba-hustle-award

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/celtics-marcus-smart-wins-2021-22-nba-hustle-award/
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#213 » by Effigy » Thu Jun 1, 2023 2:45 am

Wizenheimer wrote:
Effigy wrote:
m0ng0 wrote:Yeah 21 per and the guy sucks...and he is 23. Nobody wants that do they? Find a coach who can put these pieces together. Very creative figure out how to make a small lineup work. DiAntoni comes to mind.


That’s who I wanted last time. But dame wanted the former player.


who are you talking about?


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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#214 » by Wizenheimer » Thu Jun 1, 2023 4:30 am

Effigy wrote:
Wizenheimer wrote:
Effigy wrote:
That’s who I wanted last time. But dame wanted the former player.


who are you talking about?


Chauncey


sorry...I lost the string of discussion
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#215 » by Pattycakes » Thu Jun 1, 2023 12:43 pm

I’m looking at a Dame, Shaedon, Scoot or BM at 3 - (Justice or Nassir for first 20 games if needed), Jerami and Nurk starting lineup and Ant off the bench, and I don’t see much room for improvement outside of possibly a center upgrade or simply get Nurk a better backup.

We’re in a very weird position but at this point, taking l’s on value for Ant or the third pick isn’t solving anything. Toronto would be foolish to send us OG and Siakam for that package imo anyway, but that’s the only thing getting the phone picked up from my perspective.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#216 » by HoopsFanAZ » Thu Jun 1, 2023 5:24 pm

Ant was not ready for the NBA as a rookie ... even as a rookie he was not ready to be a rookie whose D was bad and who had only his athleticism, funky dribble to shot in one motion, and potential to look at.

Then, he started to build his body. Work on D. Not good on D or average on D, but he's working on his D. And then his catch and shoot was pretty and stealing Dame's side step 3 and floaters in the lane (nice) and that little running hook across the lane and then going at the hoop (finally! but he needed a little NBA strength ... just a little).

Notice how I've brought up good and bad of what we can see. We'll value it differently, but after getting game-planned by other teams, Ant is getting better as a basketball player and beginning to function as a PG -- with everything to work on and work on a lot!

All star one day? Not unless he's on a team with Jokic (expect Murray to get one but NOT on his own). Who do you want for the same cost -- CJ or Ant? If it's CJ, you're dead to me. Not really dead to me, but heck no. And Ant has gotten better each year. I'm not saying numbers. Better baller and taking on more. I expect better efficiency after the crapfest we've seen in the last 2 years to get the #7 and 3 amidst team-wide injuries.

Ant will not be the best player on his team AND no one should want that on the Blazers -- with or without Dame. He's like CJ in that he's not best as a PG, but he can do so on a competitive team (like CJ and the Pels), BUT Ant should be the 3rd best scorer on a contending team -- which means a really-good-not-great-player who is really frigging useful at a non-star price tag.

I'm not saying any of this to change anyone's mind, or even to re-think a position. I think part of the problem is Ant got his first big bag and then we see Shaedon Sharpe make seemingly everything but defense look easy -- at least in moments. And as a rookie, Shaedon's D was as an inexperienced rookie -- bad -- while having good reason for hope he'll improve a ton. I look forward to seeing Ant's continued growth -- hopefully on another team along with #3 for an excellent SF.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#217 » by Goldbum » Fri Jun 2, 2023 12:07 pm

What would you guys think about the MLE for Jaxon Hayes? He has the size and his combination of speed and athleticism pops for a guy that tall. He did have that legal issue, but I think it's resolved (don't get me wrong I find anything like that worse than disgusting). I think this will be a breakout year for him and he'll be Nic Claxton plus if put in the right situation. Still don't know about bringing in a guy with his history so let's talk about fit on the court and assume that Portland wouldn't pursue him unless they are comfortable.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#218 » by BlazersBroncos » Fri Jun 2, 2023 2:10 pm

Goldbum wrote:What would you guys think about the MLE for Jaxon Hayes? He has the size and his combination of speed and athleticism pops for a guy that tall. He did have that legal issue, but I think it's resolved (don't get me wrong I find anything like that worse than disgusting). I think this will be a breakout year for him and he'll be Nic Claxton plus if put in the right situation. Still don't know about bringing in a guy with his history so let's talk about fit on the court and assume that Portland wouldn't pursue him unless they are comfortable.


If we move Nurkic and have a strong 1-4, I could live w/ Hayes and Eubanks at C. Thats the spot you go cheap if you cant get a difference maker IMO.

If we are just talking upgrading the backup C spot, I take Drew over Hayes. For all the talk of Jaxton's athleticism, he has a lower BLK% than Eubanks.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#219 » by Sinobas » Fri Jun 2, 2023 2:33 pm

Pattycakes wrote:I’m looking at a Dame, Shaedon, Scoot or BM at 3 - (Justice or Nassir for first 20 games if needed), Jerami and Nurk starting lineup and Ant off the bench, and I don’t see much room for improvement outside of possibly a center upgrade or simply get Nurk a better backup.

We’re in a very weird position but at this point, taking l’s on value for Ant or the third pick isn’t solving anything. Toronto would be foolish to send us OG and Siakam for that package imo anyway, but that’s the only thing getting the phone picked up from my perspective.


Drafting Scoot means trading Dame.
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Re: Twitter Trade Rumor Roundup 

Post#220 » by Goldbum » Fri Jun 2, 2023 4:20 pm

Sinobas wrote:
Pattycakes wrote:I’m looking at a Dame, Shaedon, Scoot or BM at 3 - (Justice or Nassir for first 20 games if needed), Jerami and Nurk starting lineup and Ant off the bench, and I don’t see much room for improvement outside of possibly a center upgrade or simply get Nurk a better backup.

We’re in a very weird position but at this point, taking l’s on value for Ant or the third pick isn’t solving anything. Toronto would be foolish to send us OG and Siakam for that package imo anyway, but that’s the only thing getting the phone picked up from my perspective.


Drafting Scoot means trading Dame.



I've been pushing back on this line of reasoning but I'm coming around. Hypothetically we get Brown and White for Dame, White and Nurkic go to Pheonix for Ayton(spit balling).
We would have a lineup of

Scoot
Sharpe
Brown
???
Ayton. (I might pursue Porzingas instead but Ayton serves as a temporary place holder in this scenario)

If it's Porzingas instead of Ayton you could try giving a ton of burn to Watford at PF and hope he steps up again.

Ant: Microwave SG/PG
Matisse:Elite Defender SG/SF
Watford : Quirky Mismatch Hunter PF/C
Mayes: Emergency PG/SG has upside

That leaves:
Nas
Walker
Knox
TPE
MLE
#23
A bushel of 2nd rounders
Grant S&T
Reddish
Keon

To fill out the bench and land a PF.
We could still keep Grant but I think if Dame is traded that's a low priority.

If we're lucky we reverse engineer the Hart deal and use the TPE and 23 for a Hart level contributor. Hopefully a big.

We could also just take a guy like GG Jackson or Murray, but Murray's too short and Jacksons too raw...maybe Noah Clowney works as part of the rebuild though.

I like guys like Jaylen Smith as a bridge PF options with some upside, but haven't locked in on who I would target.

It's a crazy temof year.
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