Ayton, Grant, and Simons for anything?

[BlazersBroncos]

NO - If we can find a taker for Simons, I would be fine with a Ayton for CJ swap. Dont see much else here.

Are there any teams out there that would need/want CJ?

Just trying to see if a 3-way trade made more sense.

Dont see it - maybe LAL if they want to move off DLo and Vincent, improve a bit but not saddle their cap sheet.

[DusterBuster]

NO - If we can find a taker for Simons, I would be fine with a Ayton for CJ swap. Dont see much else here.

Are there any teams out there that would need/want CJ?

Just trying to see if a 3-way trade made more sense.

Dont see it - maybe LAL if they want to move off DLo and Vincent, improve a bit but not saddle their cap sheet.

Im a big believer in past negations predicting future trades. Blazers confirmed had negotiations with the Lakers this summer. It’s easier to come back to trade deals that were starting to get hammered out than to start from the ground floor. It might not even be the deal they discussed (Grant). But if they want a cheap upgrade from DLo (not hard to do), they could do worse than Ant from there. He would be a great fit with Bron since Ant could work more off the ball with Bron creating.

[BlazersBroncos]

Are there any teams out there that would need/want CJ?

Just trying to see if a 3-way trade made more sense.

Dont see it - maybe LAL if they want to move off DLo and Vincent, improve a bit but not saddle their cap sheet.

Im a big believer in past negations predicting future trades. Blazers confirmed had negotiations with the Lakers this summer. It’s easier to come back to trade deals that were starting to get hammered out than to start from the ground floor. It might not even be the deal they discussed (Grant). But if they want a cheap upgrade from DLo (not hard to do), they could do worse than Ant from there. He would be a great fit with Bron since Ant could work more off the ball with Bron creating.

The issue would be compensation. If we are willing to move off Simons for a low (SRP) level return, I could maybe see it.

But I dont think there is a chance in hell that LAL gives up their last tradable FRP to make Russell into Simons. I dont think they would even add a future pick swap.

I would be fine with Simons for Russell and a few SRP FWIW. Especially if it opens the door for an Ayton for CJ swap.

Buy out Russell, save some money, get something like 3-5 SRP in total and be rid of the 2 guys we clearly need to be rid of. Ride with CJ as a 20-24mpg 6th man and culture setter. Give heaping scoops of playing time to the kids. See what happens.

[Walton1one]

I just wonder if things are on hold until December 15th.

Im a big believer in past negations predicting future trades.

This is definitely true IMO. It is why I think MIL is a team to watch. LAC & NO could be as well.

As for Simons to LAL, it could work

DLO\Vanderbilt, future 1st (top 3 protect)
for
Simons

This could just fit to keep POR under luxury tax (by $100k or so) & POR would have to waive a player OR get LAL to PAY to offload DLO to a 3rd team that has the cap space to absorb him (or throw a lesser salary player BACK to POR)

I could see LAL wanting to divest themselves of the 4yr obligation to Vanderbilt & DLO is out of favor, likely won't be LAL next year anyway (he is expiring)

I would think POR would want a little extra, maybe a couple (2) of 2nd's. One in 25' (POR is not getting ATL 2nd unfortunately & they do not have their own either).

There are some other permutations that could work.

Max Christie has not looked good on the chances that he has been given and Knecht has clearly passed him by, he has a 4yr contract

Maxwell Lewis is not paid much but, is clearly out of the rotation and has 3yrs left

Or it could be a larger deal including Thybulle:

Simons\Thybulle\Walker
for
DLO\Vanderbilt\Christie and Reddish or JHS + 1st & 2-3 2nd's

[DusterBuster]

Dont see it - maybe LAL if they want to move off DLo and Vincent, improve a bit but not saddle their cap sheet.

Im a big believer in past negations predicting future trades. Blazers confirmed had negotiations with the Lakers this summer. It’s easier to come back to trade deals that were starting to get hammered out than to start from the ground floor. It might not even be the deal they discussed (Grant). But if they want a cheap upgrade from DLo (not hard to do), they could do worse than Ant from there. He would be a great fit with Bron since Ant could work more off the ball with Bron creating.

The issue would be compensation. If we are willing to move off Simons for a low (SRP) level return, I could maybe see it.

But I dont think there is a chance in hell that LAL gives up their last tradable FRP to make Russell into Simons. I dont think they would even add a future pick swap.

I would be fine with Simons for Russell and a few SRP FWIW. Especially if it opens the door for an Ayton for CJ swap.

Buy out Russell, save some money, get something like 3-5 SRP in total and be rid of the 2 guys we clearly need to be rid of. Ride with CJ as a 20-24mpg 6th man and culture setter. Give heaping scoops of playing time to the kids. See what happens.

I don't get the obsession with the Ayton for CJ swap... I mean, I get it in that I've heard the argument, but I don't get it in... I don't buy the arguments.

That said, I fully agree with you that I would be fine with Simons for Russell and a couple SRPs. Hell, put protections on the SRPs and if they don't convey, they expire. I could genuinely not care less what the Blazers get in return for Simons. I just want him off the team and whoever comes back to be bought out so they aren't taking a roster spot / minutes. I don't need or expect a FRP in return for Simons at this point, I just want him somewhere else, even if that means the other team gets a steal of a deal. Unjamming the log at PG is more important than getting any assets back right now imo.

I think clearing Simons out is the most important mission right now. Ayton second priority. The same return value logic I have for Simons applies to Ayton too. Don't care what comes back, just someone that can be bought out and open roster space and playing time. Any picks returned is just icing, not the cake.

[BlazersBroncos]

I would like to see a statistical argument that shows Simons is a FRP better than Russell.

I think we continue to overstate the value of Anfernee. He is a 1 way player with marginal PG skills (Russell while playing next to LBJ averaged more APG last year than Simons has ever averaged). His defense is, by advanced metrics, is historically bad over his career. He is touted as a 3PT maestro, and it looks silky smooth, but his career 3PT% is .38 vs Russell at .37. Additionally, Russell is labeled as a loose handled goof at times but last season he managed 2.1 TO per compared to Simons at 2.4 (And 2.7 the year before).

Simons has better athleticism but rarely functionally uses it in game, and defensively you would never know it vs Russell as D'Angelo actually has much, much better career defensive metrics than Simons. You would never label Russell as a guy that attacks the rim to get to the line, it has been a career issue for him, but his FTr is actually higher than Anfernee's.

The value in moving on from Russell to Simons is simple for LA - a shakeup that doesnt impede being a player in 2026. Its arguably not a talent upgrade in any way, it adds another year of salary and the relative value is simply to swap one equal part for another to see if the recepie produces better results.

All that being said, the idea a FRP would be needed to facilitate a move from Russell to Simons is highly off base IMO. We would be lucky to make the swap just to shave the year of salary, and maybe get 1-2 SRP to oil our gears into jettisoning a guy we have invested highly in (With little return I might say).

I don't get the obsession with the Ayton for CJ swap... I mean, I get it in that I've heard the argument, but I don't get it in... I don't buy the arguments.

Its not an obsession - rather its the only team that feasibly could make a 1-for-1 trade while also being actually interested in Ayton. CHA might like DA but they would have to cobble together a deal that would require us to cut some guys prior to said deal that we likely wouldnt want to cut.

What I like about Ayton for CJ is the culture change while opening time for DA and RWIII. CJ is a very high character human who would bring professionalism and floor spacing. Ayton is a empty stats nothing who might not be a bad guy but plays a brand of basketball that simply takes the air out of the ball and the seemingly sucks all energy off the floor. I hate, hate, hate the way this team plays with him out there. I literally believe that simply removing his lack of ability in screen setting and replacing it with anyone who can set a screen and has a pulse is a tremendous on court improvement.

CJ is brought up because it just MIGHT be realistic - and we would be wildly lucky as a fanbase if a deal, any deal, to remove Ayton would be summoned into existence. The way this team plays without him elevates us into that 'bad, but young, fun and hardworking' tier - with him (And Simons) we are highly unwatchable. If it means we bring CJ back but can jettison Ayton, please for the love of god do it.

[DusterBuster]

I would like to see a statistical argument that shows Simons is a FRP better than Russell.

I think we continue to overstate the value of Anfernee. He is a 1 way player with marginal PG skills (Russell while playing next to LBJ averaged more APG last year than Simons has ever averaged). His defense is, by advanced metrics, is historically bad over his career. He is touted as a 3PT maestro, and it looks silky smooth, but his career 3PT% is .38 vs Russell at .37. Additionally, Russell is labeled as a loose handled goof at times but last season he managed 2.1 TO per compared to Simons at 2.4 (And 2.7 the year before).

Simons has better athleticism but rarely functionally uses it in game, and defensively you would never know it vs Russell as D'Angelo actually has much, much better career defensive metrics than Simons. You would never label Russell as a guy that attacks the rim to get to the line, it has been a career issue for him, but his FTr is actually higher than Anfernee's.

The value in moving on from Russell to Simons is simple for LA - a shakeup that doesnt impede being a player in 2026. Its arguably not a talent upgrade in any way, it adds another year of salary and the relative value is simply to swap one equal part for another to see if the recepie produces better results.

All that being said, the idea a FRP would be needed to facilitate a move from Russell to Simons is highly off base IMO. We would be lucky to make the swap just to shave the year of salary, and maybe get 1-2 SRP to oil our gears into jettisoning a guy we have invested highly in (With little return I might say).

What? If this is in response to me, I'm genuinely confused. I never said I thought Simons is a FRP better than Russell. I specifically said I don't care what picks (if any) come back for Simons multiple times. I don't believe the Lakers should have to give up a FRP for a Simons / Russell swap. At most maybe a 2nd rounder or two, but that's it - and I'd be just as happy doing a straight swap of the two players and just buying out Russell to open up the roster space / log jam.

I don't get the obsession with the Ayton for CJ swap... I mean, I get it in that I've heard the argument, but I don't get it in... I don't buy the arguments.

Its not an obsession - rather its the only team that feasibly could make a 1-for-1 trade while also being actually interested in Ayton. CHA might like DA but they would have to cobble together a deal that would require us to cut some guys prior to said deal that we likely wouldnt want to cut.

What I like about Ayton for CJ is the culture change while opening time for DA and RWIII. CJ is a very high character human who would bring professionalism and floor spacing. Ayton is a empty stats nothing who might not be a bad guy but plays a brand of basketball that simply takes the air out of the ball and the seemingly sucks all energy off the floor. I hate, hate, hate the way this team plays with him out there. I literally believe that simply removing his lack of ability in screen setting and replacing it with anyone who can set a screen and has a pulse is a tremendous on court improvement.

CJ is brought up because it just MIGHT be realistic - and we would be wildly lucky as a fanbase if a deal, any deal, to remove Ayton would be summoned into existence. The way this team plays without him elevates us into that 'bad, but young, fun and hardworking' tier - with him (And Simons) we are highly unwatchable. If it means we bring CJ back but can jettison Ayton, please for the love of god do it.

This one is a bit more of a straight line response... again, I've heard this argument, I just - still - don't buy it. I don't think the team is in desperate need of a "culture change". I think they've got a decent lockerroom as it is and I think Ayton's effect on the lockerroom is largely overblown. I wish he tried more, but I don't think other players are picking up his bad habits. And to his credit, I think Billups does a do good job of setting culture in the lockerroom.

Bringing in CJ to this situation isn't in the best interest of any side. It just replicates the issue they worked to get out of by moving Simons, CJ is still too good of a player to be a bench mentor, so he takes up Scoots time that moving Simons creates. CJ also deserves better than to be on a rebuilding roster. If CJ had a single year left, it would be fine, but not at his current years left.

[BlazersBroncos]

DB, my post was aimed at Walton’s evaluation. Sorry for any confusion. You’re both awesome contributors to this board.

As for CJ, I get your point of view. It’s not unreasonable. I just disagree. Granted, I would rather get a EC than CJ. But if CJ was the only option for Ayton, and I don’t even think NO would consider it honestly, then I would make the move.

[Walton1one]

DB, my post was aimed at Walton’s evaluation

I would start off by saying this was a hypothetical IF LAL wanted Simons, which I don't really think they do, especially with the recent play of Knecht, With Knecht\Reeves how would Simons really fit in? As a pseudo SG playing PG position? I guess it could work, but not sure they would feel the pressing need to do so given their start.

I am not sure if LAL recent play improves or decreases the likelihood they would swing for Grant (where at least there was rumored interest)

As for DLO\Simons comparison. There are several reasons why LAL has actively looked to ship DLO elsewhere and several reasons why they could not find any takers

DLO has a history of dissapearing in games way too often (especially big games). His regular season performance has repeatedly not translated to his playoff perfomance.

His style of play can stagnate the offense, dribbles too much\pounds the air out of the ball, eats up too much clock (sounds like Banton)

He is very inconsistent & streaky

Both are liabilities on defense

Career averages are similar (2pt/3pt):
DLO - 42.9% - 36.8%
SIMONS - 43.0% - 38.3%

Simons is (3) years younger 25 vs 28

I would agree that Simons shares many of these same traits, however unlike DLO who has been passed around\let go by several other teams (GS\MIN), Simons has only played with 1 team (POR), so there is a bit of unknown as to how he would play in a different offensive structure (not under Billups' inept offensive scheme) and in a role where he is not the ball dominant player. Or how he would perform in meaningful\playoff games, where that book has been written on DLO.

This is why I push back against the "Simons has no value around the league" because just as teams know who he is, they also know what a **** show POR is and how he is mis-utilized in his role here. There is a long history of players who when traded to another team suddenly look like a different player because of how that player is utilized (their role) on the new team. Simons could well be such a player.

[zzaj]

DB, my post was aimed at Walton’s evaluation

I would start off by saying this was a hypothetical IF LAL wanted Simons, which I don't really think they do, especially with the recent play of Knecht, With Knecht\Reeves how would Simons really fit in? As a pseudo SG playing PG position? I guess it could work, but not sure they would feel the pressing need to do so given their start.

I am not sure if LAL recent play improves or decreases the likelihood they would swing for Grant (where at least there was rumored interest)

As for DLO\Simons comparison. There are several reasons why LAL has actively looked to ship DLO elsewhere and several reasons why they could not find any takers

DLO has a history of dissapearing in games way too often (especially big games). His regular season performance has repeatedly not translated to his playoff perfomance.

His style of play can stagnate the offense, dribbles too much\pounds the air out of the ball, eats up too much clock (sounds like Banton)

He is very inconsistent & streaky

Both are liabilities on defense

Career averages are similar (2pt/3pt):
DLO - 42.9% - 36.8%
SIMONS - 43.0% - 38.3%

Simons is (3) years younger 25 vs 28

I would agree that Simons shares many of these same traits, however unlike DLO who has been passed around\let go by several other teams (GS\MIN), Simons has only played with 1 team (POR), so there is a bit of unknown as to how he would play in a different offensive structure (not under Billups' inept offensive scheme) and in a role where he is not the ball dominant player. Or how he would perform in meaningful\playoff games, where that book has been written on DLO.

This is why I push back against the "Simons has no value around the league" because just as teams know who he is, they also know what a **** show POR is and how he is mis-utilized in his role here. There is a long history of players who when traded to another team suddenly look like a different player because of how that player is utilized (their role) on the new team. Simons could well be such a player.

Banton does quite a few things wrong, but he doesn't dribble the air out of the ball a la CJ and DLO. He typically is looking to get downhill right away and if it's not there, he either forces a shot or passes.

The issue with trading Simons to a team and him magically becoming a different player because of fit/coaching/whatever...

...even if he magically gets to the line more, inches his way into the top of the bottom quarter of NBA defenders, and averages an assist or two more per game he's still paid like a top two player on a team, and that will never be the case on a good team.

As we've all said, he's a tweener guard that doesn't get to the FT line and is still very capable of shooting you out of games. Based on what he's shown in 6+ years...he should be coming off the bench as a microwave scorer. Unfortunately, he's not paid like one and the league has moved away from his player archetype in terms of value.

The proof will be in the next contract Simons signs.

[zzaj]

This is OT, but the two moves I really wanted that were rumored during Lillard's tenure were CJ for either Derozan or Aaron Gordon. I feel like either of those moves would have changed the trajectory of the franchise.

Of course the real changer started with Turner's contract.

[Walton1one]

Banton does quite a few things wrong, but he doesn't dribble the air out of the ball a la CJ and DLO. He typically is looking to get downhill right away and if it's not there, he either forces a shot or passes.

I mean there were several times in the game vs ATL where he just held onto possession of the ball for way too long, entirely focused on getting himself a shot. He may not stand in a spot and dribble, he moves around, but he tends to possess the ball for way too long and there is absolutely zero justification for him to be taking 19 shots in a game, but a lot of that is on Billups. The fact that 2/3x that game he subbed out Avdija and left Banton in was ridiculous.

The guy is a career 41.6% FG/30.3% 3pt FG shooter over 161 games (4 seasons) in the NBA and he was just as lousy (worse) over 58 games in college ( 40.8%/23.7%)

His Usage rate is #1 (29.8) on the team! That is an absolute joke, just another indicator of how bad a coach Billups is.

He averages 29.3% of POR turnovers, only Scoot (32.6%) is higher and he is FIVE years younger. There are a lot of fans on this site (and on others) that love to blast Scoot about his play\turnovers and yet somehow find praise for Banton. Scoot BTW also leads the team in AST% (43.5%) in his 2nd year @ age 20, playing PG.

Yet Billups plays Banton @ PG, and fans clamor for him to be in instead of Scoot, it is sheer lunacy, Banton is not a PG, he is a score 1st (and 2nd) 25yr old forward masquerading as one.

[Walton1one]

This is OT, but the two moves I really wanted that were rumored during Lillard's tenure were CJ for either Derozan or Aaron Gordon. I feel like either of those moves would have changed the trajectory of the franchise.

Of course the real changer started with Turner's contract.

The Gordon deal in particular was IMO a turning point, had that deal been made, who knows what could have happened? Olshey (like Cronin) was too attached to "his" players and could not see the bigger picture.

Say what you will about Bob Whitsitt, but he remained aloof from the players and I think it allowed him to not be biased about players on the team when making deals. It could be that bias is what makes it hard for Cronin to find "the right deal". I guess we will see.

Recent intel suggested the Blazers had fallen behind the Celtics and Nuggets in the running for Gordon. Not only did Gordon make his preference to be traded to Boston known to Orlando management, but Portland was reportedly hesitant to meet the Magic's asking price of a quality young player and multiple first-round picks.

That young player was Anfernee Simons

Aaron Gordon was eventually traded to Denver for Gary Harris, RJ Hampton (young player\rookie then) and a 25' 1st

and then later Olshey traded a 25' 1st to CHI to get Larry Nance, in a deal that saw Markannen go to CLE. One of the dumbest trades by a POR GM in some time. Yeah, Markannen might have been useful.

[BlazersBroncos]

I was pretty upset we came out of that deal w/ Nance rather than Lauri. What a disaster.

[scoobs07]

I just wonder if things are on hold until December 15th.

Or it could be a larger deal including Thybulle:

Simons\Thybulle\Walker
for
DLO\Vanderbilt\Christie and Reddish or JHS + 1st & 2-3 2nd's

HI, Lakers fan here. I come in peace. I keep hearing rumblings of trade talk between the two teams. I have not heard Thybue mentioned, but I like the fit for LAL. Would would Blazers be looking for in exchange?

[Butter]

I just wonder if things are on hold until December 15th.

Or it could be a larger deal including Thybulle:

Simons\Thybulle\Walker
for
DLO\Vanderbilt\Christie and Reddish or JHS + 1st & 2-3 2nd's

HI, Lakers fan here. I come in peace. I keep hearing rumblings of trade talk between the two teams. I have not heard Thybue mentioned, but I like the fit for LAL. Would would Blazers be looking for in exchange?

For Thybulle specifically? It's a tough call

Tice is getting caught in a logjam/youth movement. I really like him, but the reality is that the Blazers have a lot of talent at his best positions.

I'd probably go for 2x 2nds, or a conditional future pick swap

[scoobs07]

I just wonder if things are on hold until December 15th.

HI, Lakers fan here. I come in peace. I keep hearing rumblings of trade talk between the two teams. I have not heard Thybue mentioned, but I like the fit for LAL. Would would Blazers be looking for in exchange?

For Thybulle specifically? It's a tough call

Tice is getting caught in a logjam/youth movement. I really like him, but the reality is that the Blazers have a lot of talent at his best positions.

I'd probably go for 2x 2nds, or a conditional future pick swap

Good to know. Since he makes 11.025 million, what salaries coming back from Lakers would you want in return?

[tblazrdude]

I can say with relatively good authority that the trade value of Ant and Grant has not “cratered” this season. They haven’t played well but teams know who those guys are. I’ve heard more Ant rumors with legs over the last 24 hours than I had heard all summer. One executive told me he believes he asked out.

what's the latest, Goldbum?

[tester551]

HI, Lakers fan here. I come in peace. I keep hearing rumblings of trade talk between the two teams. I have not heard Thybue mentioned, but I like the fit for LAL. Would would Blazers be looking for in exchange?

For Thybulle specifically? It's a tough call

Tice is getting caught in a logjam/youth movement. I really like him, but the reality is that the Blazers have a lot of talent at his best positions.

I'd probably go for 2x 2nds, or a conditional future pick swap

Good to know. Since he makes 11.025 million, what salaries coming back from Lakers would you want in return?

Maybe something like this:

Vando + Wood (or Reddish) + 2-2nds ('25 LAC & '27 LAL)
for
Thybulle + Walker

[Walton1one]

I just wonder if things are on hold until December 15th.

Or it could be a larger deal including Thybulle:

Simons\Thybulle\Walker
for
DLO\Vanderbilt\Christie and Reddish or JHS + 1st & 2-3 2nd's

HI, Lakers fan here. I come in peace. I keep hearing rumblings of trade talk between the two teams. I have not heard Thybue mentioned, but I like the fit for LAL. Would would Blazers be looking for in exchange?

Trading Thybulle to the Lakers would not be too challenging. It would just depend on the compensation coming back.

Thybulle\Reath (or Walker or Banton)
for
Vincent\Reddish (or Hayes or Wood or JHS)

Can't trade them straight up unfortunately, as Thybulle's contract is $25k more, so thus minor contract must be swapped to make it work. That is where Reddish\Hayes\Wood\JHS. One of Reath\Walker\Banton would be the guys likely coming back in exchange. No way POR puts Camara (off limits I would suspect) or Rupert (IMO) in that deal.

Vincent has been playing about 18min/g as b\u for LAL so they may not want to offload him and I can't imagine POR would want anything to do with Hayes given recent allegations.

Vincent & Thybulle are a wash, contract-wise, Thybulle has a PO ($11.55mil) that I imagine he might want to opt into if he was in LA? But maybe not? Vincent's contract is fully guaranteed next year.

Depending on the player coming back (POR has zero need for Reddish\Wood), I would imagine a cost of (2) 2nd's? If JHS came back (if POR had interest) maybe (1) 2nd's?

One of those 2nd's would need to be a 25' 2nd (via LAC)

The other option is substituting Vanderbilt instead, which I would bet LAL would prefer, however that has to come at a cost, given he is owed for 4 more years. No way POR takes that on w\o some additional compensation coming back their way

Vanderbilt + (1) of Reddish\Wood\Hayes\JHS
for
Thybulle + (1) of Reath\Walker\Banton

What is the price LAL pays to offload Vanderbilt on POR? I'm just not sure there is anything there to incentivize POR for a deal like that.