Shams: the ****? Simons to Boston for Holiday… real

[Wizenheimer]

I've been generally negative about Portland since about the 3rd season of Olshey. The 2016 spending spree was the final straw. Mostly, Dame kept me watching but I hated the decade of CJ-->Simons at SG and I wanted better defense, better forwards, and the end of tiny guards

Don't sell yourself short, Wiz. You've been negative for much longer than that. But we love our cranky ol' grampa

cranky? sure, sometimes

negative? that basically started with Olshey.

I was all-in on the Roy/Aldridge/Oden team. Just didn't know about the calcium deficiencies of the roster

[DusterBuster]

I've been generally negative about Portland since about the 3rd season of Olshey. The 2016 spending spree was the final straw. Mostly, Dame kept me watching but I hated the decade of CJ-->Simons at SG and I wanted better defense, better forwards, and the end of tiny guards

Don't sell yourself short, Wiz. You've been negative for much longer than that. But we love our cranky ol' grampa

cranky? sure, sometimes

negative? that basically started with Olshey.

I was all-in on the Roy/Aldridge/Oden team. Just didn't know about the calcium deficiencies of the roster

One thing that was abundantly clear with Paul Allen, he loved having "sales guys" as his GM. Whitsitt, Patterson, Pritchard and Olshey all kind of has the same sort of smarmy sales guy personas, and they lasted the longest with the team. Patterson only served a single year as GM, but he always overshadowed Nash while in the president role.

Which, to be fair, is probably is a useful skill for a GM who has to negotiate with others. But also leads to being kind of insufferable dbags to the media and fans (as most high end sales guys are dbags in general life) because those types of sales guys always believe they should never be questioned and they're smarter than the rest of the room.

One thing's for sure, if Paul had still been alive, I don't believe for a second he would have ever removed Cronin's interim tag after firing Olshey.

[Wizenheimer]

Don't sell yourself short, Wiz. You've been negative for much longer than that. But we love our cranky ol' grampa

cranky? sure, sometimes

negative? that basically started with Olshey.

I was all-in on the Roy/Aldridge/Oden team. Just didn't know about the calcium deficiencies of the roster

One thing that was abundantly clear with Paul Allen, he loved having "sales guys" as his GM. Whitsitt, Patterson, Pritchard and Olshey all kind of has the same sort of smarmy sales guy personas, and they lasted the longest with the team. Patterson only served a single year as GM, but he always overshadowed Nash while in the president role.

Which, to be fair, is probably is a useful skill for a GM who has to negotiate with others. But also leads to being kind of insufferable dbags to the media and fans (as most high end sales guys are dbags in general life) because those types of sales guys always believe they should never be questioned and they're smarter than the rest of the room.

One thing's for sure, if Paul had still been alive, I don't believe for a second he would have ever removed Cronin's interim tag after firing Olshey.

Patterson and Rich Cho both lasted less than a year as GM's

tenures of Blazer GM's:

Harry Glickman: 1970–1981
Stu Inman: 1981–1986
Bucky Buckwalter: 1986–1992
Geoff Petrie: 1992–1994
Bob Whitsitt: 1994–2003
John Nash: 2003–2006
Steve Patterson: 2006–2007
Tod Leiweke: 2007 (interim)
Kevin Pritchard: 2007–2010
Rich Cho: 2010–2011
Chad Buchanan: 2011–2012
Neil Olshey: 2012–2021
Joe Cronin: 2021–present (interim from Dec 2021, permanent since May 2022)

* Glickman was GM the longest and the only one to win a championship
* Buckwalter was GM when Paul Allen bought the team; hired Rick Adelman as coach; was GM during the Drexler team's ascension
* I can't remember if it was Patrie or Whitsitt who fired Adelman. Might have been a gap with no GM at the time
* kind of insane that Whitsitt and Olshey had the same length tenures. One accomplished some notable things; the other did not

[DusterBuster]

cranky? sure, sometimes

negative? that basically started with Olshey.

I was all-in on the Roy/Aldridge/Oden team. Just didn't know about the calcium deficiencies of the roster

One thing that was abundantly clear with Paul Allen, he loved having "sales guys" as his GM. Whitsitt, Patterson, Pritchard and Olshey all kind of has the same sort of smarmy sales guy personas, and they lasted the longest with the team. Patterson only served a single year as GM, but he always overshadowed Nash while in the president role.

Which, to be fair, is probably is a useful skill for a GM who has to negotiate with others. But also leads to being kind of insufferable dbags to the media and fans (as most high end sales guys are dbags in general life) because those types of sales guys always believe they should never be questioned and they're smarter than the rest of the room.

One thing's for sure, if Paul had still been alive, I don't believe for a second he would have ever removed Cronin's interim tag after firing Olshey.

Patterson and Rich Cho both lasted less than a year as GM's

tenures of Blazer GM's:

Harry Glickman: 1970–1981
Stu Inman: 1981–1986
Bucky Buckwalter: 1986–1992
Geoff Petrie: 1992–1994
Bob Whitsitt: 1994–2003
John Nash: 2003–2006
Steve Patterson: 2006–2007
Tod Leiweke: 2007 (interim)
Kevin Pritchard: 2007–2010
Rich Cho: 2010–2011
Chad Buchanan: 2011–2012
Neil Olshey: 2012–2021
Joe Cronin: 2021–present (interim from Dec 2021, permanent since May 2022)

* Glickman was GM the longest and the only one to win a championship
* Buckwalter was GM when Paul Allen bought the team; hired Rick Adelman as coach; was GM during the Drexler team's ascension
* I can't remember if it was Patrie or Whitsitt who fired Adelman. Might have been a gap with no GM at the time
* kind of insane that Whitsitt and Olshey had the same length tenures. One accomplished some notable things; the other did not

I put a asterisk on Patterson. He only held the label of GM for a year, but he ran the team in a way where he was defacto GM when it was he and Nash. Nash was almost more of an assistant GM, he did all the legwork on deals and drafts, but the final decisions ultimately were from Patterson from what I remember. So while yes, the record books will show what you laid out, I really consider Patterson in more of a similar light to Olshey from 03-07.

[Wizenheimer]

Spoiler:

One thing that was abundantly clear with Paul Allen, he loved having "sales guys" as his GM. Whitsitt, Patterson, Pritchard and Olshey all kind of has the same sort of smarmy sales guy personas, and they lasted the longest with the team. Patterson only served a single year as GM, but he always overshadowed Nash while in the president role.

Which, to be fair, is probably is a useful skill for a GM who has to negotiate with others. But also leads to being kind of insufferable dbags to the media and fans (as most high end sales guys are dbags in general life) because those types of sales guys always believe they should never be questioned and they're smarter than the rest of the room.

One thing's for sure, if Paul had still been alive, I don't believe for a second he would have ever removed Cronin's interim tag after firing Olshey.

Patterson and Rich Cho both lasted less than a year as GM's

tenures of Blazer GM's:

Harry Glickman: 1970–1981
Stu Inman: 1981–1986
Bucky Buckwalter: 1986–1992
Geoff Petrie: 1992–1994
Bob Whitsitt: 1994–2003
John Nash: 2003–2006
Steve Patterson: 2006–2007
Tod Leiweke: 2007 (interim)
Kevin Pritchard: 2007–2010
Rich Cho: 2010–2011
Chad Buchanan: 2011–2012
Neil Olshey: 2012–2021
Joe Cronin: 2021–present (interim from Dec 2021, permanent since May 2022)

* Glickman was GM the longest and the only one to win a championship
* Buckwalter was GM when Paul Allen bought the team; hired Rick Adelman as coach; was GM during the Drexler team's ascension
* I can't remember if it was Patrie or Whitsitt who fired Adelman. Might have been a gap with no GM at the time
* kind of insane that Whitsitt and Olshey had the same length tenures. One accomplished some notable things; the other did not

I put a asterisk on Patterson. He only held the label of GM for a year, but he ran the team in a way where he was defacto GM when it was he and Nash. Nash was almost more of an assistant GM, he did all the legwork on deals and drafts, but the final decisions ultimately were from Patterson from what I remember. So while yes, the record books will show what you laid out, I really consider Patterson in more of a similar light to Olshey from 03-07.

well...we'll always have the 2005 draft!

" According to reports, the Trail Blazers' Director of Player Personnel, Kevin Pritchard, wanted to draft Chris Paul. However, the then-General Manager John Nash favored trading down and taking Martell Webster as part of a two-for-one deal to acquire an additional first-round pick. The team president, Steve Patterson, and owner Paul Allen ultimately supported the decision to trade the original #3 pick to the Utah Jazz (who used it for Deron Williams) and select Webster with the #6 pick acquired in the trade."

[DusterBuster]

Spoiler:

Patterson and Rich Cho both lasted less than a year as GM's

tenures of Blazer GM's:

Harry Glickman: 1970–1981
Stu Inman: 1981–1986
Bucky Buckwalter: 1986–1992
Geoff Petrie: 1992–1994
Bob Whitsitt: 1994–2003
John Nash: 2003–2006
Steve Patterson: 2006–2007
Tod Leiweke: 2007 (interim)
Kevin Pritchard: 2007–2010
Rich Cho: 2010–2011
Chad Buchanan: 2011–2012
Neil Olshey: 2012–2021
Joe Cronin: 2021–present (interim from Dec 2021, permanent since May 2022)

* Glickman was GM the longest and the only one to win a championship
* Buckwalter was GM when Paul Allen bought the team; hired Rick Adelman as coach; was GM during the Drexler team's ascension
* I can't remember if it was Patrie or Whitsitt who fired Adelman. Might have been a gap with no GM at the time
* kind of insane that Whitsitt and Olshey had the same length tenures. One accomplished some notable things; the other did not

I put a asterisk on Patterson. He only held the label of GM for a year, but he ran the team in a way where he was defacto GM when it was he and Nash. Nash was almost more of an assistant GM, he did all the legwork on deals and drafts, but the final decisions ultimately were from Patterson from what I remember. So while yes, the record books will show what you laid out, I really consider Patterson in more of a similar light to Olshey from 03-07.

well...we'll always have the 2005 draft!

" According to reports, the Trail Blazers' Director of Player Personnel, Kevin Pritchard, wanted to draft Chris Paul. However, the then-General Manager John Nash favored trading down and taking Martell Webster as part of a two-for-one deal to acquire an additional first-round pick. The team president, Steve Patterson, and owner Paul Allen ultimately supported the decision to trade the original #3 pick to the Utah Jazz (who used it for Deron Williams) and select Webster with the #6 pick acquired in the trade."

Yep, exactly why I consider Patterson the defacto GM for that time period. Paul worked most closely with Patterson and Steve ultimately had final say over everything even more than Nash did. He largely rubber-stamped Nash's recommendations, but nothing got done without Patterson's OK on the roster decisions - even tho that wasn't even technically his role.

Maybe they had it more set kind of like what the Jazz currently have with Ainge and his son. His son is GM, but you have to imagine Danny has actual final say. I'm sure he trusts his sons recommendations, but the buck stops with Danny.

Whereas current structure for the Blazers has been much more clear cut. Dwayne Hankins hasn't has a single finger in the on-the-court stuff whatsoever.

[zzaj]

The Blazers GMs have pretty much sucked ever since the early days of Whitsitt...

Interestingly, I remember actually being kinda excited about Chad Buchanan when he was named. But that didn't last long. Looking at that list makes me think that guys like Rich Cho didn't have a chance if they weren't "yes" men to PA, the Vulcans, and Larry Miller.

[Walton1one]

It's not a for sure problem just because you choose to look at the glass as half pissed in all the time.

lol, ok....

I guess they will start all 3 then? Maybe 4, including Sharpe? A 4-guard lineup, sounds like a wonderful plan....

OR

They are going to have to admit they screwed up 3 out of their last 4 draft lottery picks and then doubled down on Sharpe and gave him $20+mil as a certified bench player in Y5?

Maybe they will trade them (Scoot\Sharpe) for more older vets and go "all in" on their 36yr old backcourt? Surely, that will work, and of course, let's just forget that Cronin started this whole flipping mess by electing to draft Scoot in the first place (and Sharpe the year before) INSTEAD of building around Dame like he repeatedly asked for years.

Rebuilding around the youth, Cronin has said that repeatedly...In fact, I think he has mentioned Scoot\Sharpe specifically by name several times, and yet he trades for Jrue & signs Dame both of whom play the same positions and expect to start?

So, are they not going with the youth then? Now it is building around two 36yr old guards? Is that what "winning time" means?

Two timelines, flip flopping narratives, a team that is again destined to be stuck in no man's land and people seem fine with that, ok, good for you.

[Walton1one]

The Blazers GMs have pretty much sucked ever since the early days of Whitsitt...

Interestingly, I remember actually being kinda excited about Chad Buchanan when he was named. But that didn't last long. Looking at that list makes me think that guys like Rich Cho didn't have a chance if they weren't "yes" men to PA, the Vulcans, and Larry Miller.

Yeah, Whitsitt, probably POR best GM before some of his moves started to go off the rails in the last few years...

.603 W\L% over 9 seasons with POR, almost twice that of Cronin thru 4 seasons

[cucad8]

It's not a for sure problem just because you choose to look at the glass as half pissed in all the time.

lol, ok....

I guess they will start all 3 then? Maybe 4, including Sharpe? A 4-guard lineup, sounds like a wonderful plan....

OR

They are going to have to admit they screwed up 3 out of their last 4 draft lottery picks and then doubled down on Sharpe and gave him $20+mil as a certified bench player in Y5?

Maybe they will trade them (Scoot\Sharpe) for more older vets and go "all in" on their 36yr old backcourt? Surely, that will work, and of course, let's just forget that Cronin started this whole flipping mess by electing to draft Scoot in the first place (and Sharpe the year before) INSTEAD of building around Dame like he repeatedly asked for years.

Rebuilding around the youth, Cronin has said that repeatedly...In fact, I think he has mentioned Scoot\Sharpe specifically by name several times, and yet he trades for Jrue & signs Dame both of whom play the same positions and expect to start?

So, are they not going with the youth then? Now it is building around two 36yr old guards? Is that what "winning time" means?

Two timelines, flip flopping narratives, a team that is again destined to be stuck in no man's land and people seem fine with that, ok, good for you.

lol, or...it's a year away. One year ago you were probably expecting Simons to be our starting PG this season and saying it was a for sure thing and crying about that. But here we are. Complaining about something a year away just to be miserable seems like an odd way to go through life, but you do you. Reminds me why I generally post elsewhere.

[Walton1one]

Why? Just b/c you don’t like what you read? Different\dissenting views are ok to have, unless all you expect is positive vibes and nothing else.

Nothing against you personally, just disagree with your assessment, it is going to be a problem whether now or later doesn’t really matter IMO

[cucad8]

There's a wide gulf, IMO, between different/dissenting views, and loudly complaining about Cronin not being at a press conference as a terrible thing. Or the many posts I've read about the disgrace and disaster his 2 way signings are, as if that's gonna separate us from title contenders to lottery. And complaining about a potential, yes, potential, not FOR SURE, "problem" that is still a year away, when he has shown an ability to turn over a roster. It's finding things to cry about just for the sake of it; hunting out issues for...fun? Like I said, do you.

[Walton1one]

I will

Not the only one who complained about Cronin not even bothering to address Billups issue, don’t remember complaining loudly either, just said it was weak, as per usual with him at any press conference

2-ways matter (as does a competent bench, also lacking), just ask MEM, OKC and multiple other teams, but I guess those teams suck? It separates the good\playoff contending front offices from the poor\lotto ones, which is POR again BTW? But sure you are right, it doesn’t matter.

The fact that you can’t recognize/admit? POR drafting two guards with high lottery\top 7 picks, and then trading for\signing aging veteran players at those same positions as a problem, well that’s on you

[DusterBuster]

The Blazers GMs have pretty much sucked ever since the early days of Whitsitt...

Interestingly, I remember actually being kinda excited about Chad Buchanan when he was named. But that didn't last long. Looking at that list makes me think that guys like Rich Cho didn't have a chance if they weren't "yes" men to PA, the Vulcans, and Larry Miller.

Yeah, Whitsitt, probably POR best GM before some of his moves started to go off the rails in the last few years...

.603 W\L% over 9 seasons with POR, almost twice that of Cronin thru 4 seasons

I think some context is necessary for Whitsitt. Likely most of us were in our younger years there… (maybe, I was), one thing with Whitsitt that needs to be considered is how long Allen had owned the team and what the CBA was like then. PA was a newish owner and he could spend like baseball and when he got the team. And when he hired Whitsitt, that was when he had the team totally made his own and all the previous regime was gone.

[Wizenheimer]

The Blazers GMs have pretty much sucked ever since the early days of Whitsitt...

Interestingly, I remember actually being kinda excited about Chad Buchanan when he was named. But that didn't last long. Looking at that list makes me think that guys like Rich Cho didn't have a chance if they weren't "yes" men to PA, the Vulcans, and Larry Miller.

Yeah, Whitsitt, probably POR best GM before some of his moves started to go off the rails in the last few years...

.603 W\L% over 9 seasons with POR, almost twice that of Cronin thru 4 seasons

I think some context is necessary for Whitsitt. Likely most of us were in our younger years there… (maybe, I was), one thing with Whitsitt that needs to be considered is how long Allen had owned the team and what the CBA was like then. PA was a newish owner and he could spend like baseball and when he got the team. And when he hired Whitsitt, that was when he had the team totally made his own and all the previous regime was gone.

it would be really interesting to go back and track Whitsitt's trades and signings and see how many would have been allowed under the current CBA and the Blazer cap allocations at the time. My guess is that most of them would have been illegal....and that Paul Allen would have paid a gagillion dollars in luxury tax

that would be a lot of work to put that together so I'm expecting you to get on it right away

[Wizenheimer]

my opinion on Cronin has been modified. I was definitely in the minority when I liked what he did at his first trade deadline. The only negative to all those deadline deals was Paul George getting Covid before a play-in game, and that wasn't Cronin's fault

but over the next 2.5 seasons I didn't like much of what he did. Overpaying Simons & Nurkic...yuck. He did execute a pretty nice trade for Grant, but then gave him that big contract; win-lose. And Portland seemed mired in a two-track mudflat

I'm thinking his first two drafts were iffy. The Cronin/Schmitz combo had some hiccups. But the book is still out on Sharpe and Scoot. I wasn't happy about the 7th pick for Clingan, but I was wrong about that one. He's been excellent, with a couple of flaws. But he's nearly everything a drop-coverage C should be. Definitely not impressed with the Yang pick, especially with Clingan on the roster, although maybe the main value of that will be the unprotected Orlando 1st in 2028

but it's still possible Sharpe turns into an all-star level player. I don't think Scoot will, but maybe he'll surprise. And it's become pretty obvious that spending a 23rd pick on Murray is paying off, even though it looked like a wasted pick for a couple of seasons. Just don't let him shoot many three's. In other words, his draft picks have been slightly better than average and still might have substantial upside

I hated trading for Ayton. I detested him as a player when he was on the Suns. I know Cronin was in a bind with the Dame trade demands, but he created some of that bind himself. I get that Camara's inclusion kind of rescues that trade. But that was luck considering the Blazers had a chance to draft Camara and went with Rupert instead

the Avdija trade has been quite a bit better than I originally thought. The cost was substantial and it's still possible that 2029 first could be quite valuable. But Avdija is pretty valuable too

and one thing that was dragging down my opinion of Cronin was an expectation that he might re-sign Simons and Ayton. Instead he dumped both and won the Simons for Jrue trade by a mile
***********************************************************************

but...if I think of those 2-3 seasons as a necessary transition and compare to the current roster it's hard for me to slam Cronin...much. I had complained for years about an undersized bad-defense roster. He's built a roster with length all over the floor, strong defenders, and the kind of depth that works with relentless defensive pressure and aggressive transition offense. They can't shoot well but the strengths offset much of that bad shooting

just look at the forward rotation of Avdija/Camara/Grant with a little Murray and Thybulle thrown in. How does an opponent game plan for that 3 headed monster? There's really no redundancy and if you figure out how to offset Avdija, Grant will monkey-wrench the game plan; and vice-versa. And Camara is always around putting players in boxes and making hustle plays on both ends. Add in the disruption of Thybulle/Wesley, the paint dominance of Clingan, and Jrue pulling the strings...lots of fun

the Sharpe/Camara extensions look solid. I'm not sure Cronin should get a lot of credit for that because it sure looks like the new CBA with the apron provisions have changed contract dynamics

I still don't anticipate a record much better than .500, but the possibility of it has become easier to imagine. What the Blazers are doing will get scouted, and they won't be surprising many teams a 2nd time. But the team is entertaining, and again, it's really deep. That might be most symbolized by 9th-man captain chaos Blake Wesley

so yeah, what Cronin has put on the floor this season offsets a lot of his mistakes, and he's certainly made some. I'm not sure if he survives when Dundon takes over, but if he does, I'm OK with it

[HoopsFanAZ]

Well done, Wiz.
Different interpretations on some points but a pretty reasonable take.