Offseason

[PDXKnight]

If Morey was real interested in CJ I imagine this would have been done already. Since Morey is probably not that interested in CJ and is demanding a ton of extra assets on top then what we are hearing from Windhorst is just Olshey posturing. There is no benefit to having our business in the street, you only give rival execs leverage and potentially end up with an unhappy player. Its why the Sixers are in the mess they are in. If we were hearing Portland was trying hard to get CJ for Simmons done then that would be a leaky front-office worthy of criticism - I know we as fans want to feel like we have the inside scoop but in todays world that means everyone has the scoop and that is a sign of a bad front office. Much better to publicly always support your players and never involve or at least downplay their names in trade rumors.

But Morey and CJ are just seem to have very different philosophical approaches to the game. Morey comes at it from a mathematical nerd perspective, all analytics, 3 and FT's, numbers, stats, efficiencies. CJ comes at the game like a baller, getting out on the court from sun up to sun down, take what the defense gives you, get the ball in the hoop and run it back. I just don't see CJ being the type of player that Morey would target or value highly at all. That's not to say CJ doesn't care about that stuff, just that his philosophical approach to the game was formed on the playground rather than the front office - for example he looks at a midrange shot and instead of thinking "the average points per possession here is X" he thinks "I can make this ****"

Yeah hopefully it’s posturing and that’s what my gut says it is as well. But there’s probably a good shot olshey is so high on cj he wouldn’t do cj for simmons, i’d put that at a 25-40 percent chance as it seems like olshey is really hung ho about his guys time and time agai

[DeBlazerRiddem]

If Morey was real interested in CJ I imagine this would have been done already. Since Morey is probably not that interested in CJ and is demanding a ton of extra assets on top then what we are hearing from Windhorst is just Olshey posturing. There is no benefit to having our business in the street, you only give rival execs leverage and potentially end up with an unhappy player. Its why the Sixers are in the mess they are in. If we were hearing Portland was trying hard to get CJ for Simmons done then that would be a leaky front-office worthy of criticism - I know we as fans want to feel like we have the inside scoop but in todays world that means everyone has the scoop and that is a sign of a bad front office. Much better to publicly always support your players and never involve or at least downplay their names in trade rumors.

But Morey and CJ are just seem to have very different philosophical approaches to the game. Morey comes at it from a mathematical nerd perspective, all analytics, 3 and FT's, numbers, stats, efficiencies. CJ comes at the game like a baller, getting out on the court from sun up to sun down, take what the defense gives you, get the ball in the hoop and run it back. I just don't see CJ being the type of player that Morey would target or value highly at all. That's not to say CJ doesn't care about that stuff, just that his philosophical approach to the game was formed on the playground rather than the front office - for example he looks at a midrange shot and instead of thinking "the average points per possession here is X" he thinks "I can make this ****"

Yeah hopefully it’s posturing and that’s what my gut says it is as well. But there’s probably a good shot olshey is so high on cj he wouldn’t do cj for simmons, i’d put that at a 25-40 percent chance as it seems like olshey is really hung ho about his guys time and time agai

It certainly does seem that way and it would make some sense, a GM should be gung ho about his guys. He knows CJ, he knows what he brings on and off the court, he knows his work ethic and leadership skills, often times the devil you know is safer than the devil you do not. If Ben is going to bring an entitled "I dont have to take criticism and work to improve my game" attitude that might be worse than just continuing with CJ. Not to say Ben will bring that attitude, hopefully he is mostly objecting to the role Doc Rivers put him in and then threw him under the bus for, in that show of public disrespect, in which case I would be glad to get Ben to a more stable, supportive and mature situation.

But I think inferring that Olshey wouldn't trade CJ for Simmons from a lack of information is a weak form of evidence, its no more than conjecture. It might be true, but it equally might not be true, so there really is no way to say or back up that statement. Personally I think it is MUCH more likely that Morey has rejected a straight up trade than Olshey has but, as The Dude would say, that's just like my opinion man.

[Wizenheimer]

But I think inferring that Olshey wouldn't trade CJ for Simmons from a lack of information is a weak form of evidence, its no more than conjecture. It might be true, but it equally might not be true, so there really is no way to say or back up that statement. Personally I think it is MUCH more likely that Morey has rejected a straight up trade than Olshey has but, as The Dude would say, that's just like my opinion man.

Olshey wouldn't trade CJ for Paul George

and he wouldn't trade CJ for Jimmy Butler

so it's pretty easy to assume Olshey would hold CJ untouchable in a Simmons trade. However, I don't think Philly has much interest in a Simmons for CJ deal. I don't think Morey would value CJ that highly

[DeBlazerRiddem]

But I think inferring that Olshey wouldn't trade CJ for Simmons from a lack of information is a weak form of evidence, its no more than conjecture. It might be true, but it equally might not be true, so there really is no way to say or back up that statement. Personally I think it is MUCH more likely that Morey has rejected a straight up trade than Olshey has but, as The Dude would say, that's just like my opinion man.

Olshey wouldn't trade CJ for Paul George

and he wouldn't trade CJ for Jimmy Butler

so it's pretty easy to assume Olshey would hold CJ untouchable in a Simmons trade. However, I don't think Philly has much interest in a Simmons for CJ deal. I don't think Morey would value CJ that highly

Were those ever straight up on the table though? What deals were actually being required by the other team? I don't think CJ has ever had a high trade value so I doubt how easy those deals would have been to make if teams didn't like CJ.

So again we are inferring evidence from things that did not happen and I think that is a weak form of evidence where because there is a gap of knowledge we all fill it with our own conjecture. And then we present that conjecture, such as Olshey turned down trading CJ for PG and Butler, as some sort of fact. And I think that's a tad misleading. It may be true, but it may not be true too and whatever the situation was it's likely more complicated.

[PDXKnight]

But I think inferring that Olshey wouldn't trade CJ for Simmons from a lack of information is a weak form of evidence, its no more than conjecture. It might be true, but it equally might not be true, so there really is no way to say or back up that statement. Personally I think it is MUCH more likely that Morey has rejected a straight up trade than Olshey has but, as The Dude would say, that's just like my opinion man.

Olshey wouldn't trade CJ for Paul George

and he wouldn't trade CJ for Jimmy Butler

so it's pretty easy to assume Olshey would hold CJ untouchable in a Simmons trade. However, I don't think Philly has much interest in a Simmons for CJ deal. I don't think Morey would value CJ that highly

Were those ever straight up on the table though? What deals were actually being required by the other team? I don't think CJ has ever had a high trade value so I doubt how easy those deals would have been to make if teams didn't like CJ.

So again we are inferring evidence from things that did not happen and I think that is a weak form of evidence where because there is a gap of knowledge we all fill it with our own conjecture. And then we present that conjecture, such as Olshey turned down trading CJ for PG and Butler, as some sort of fact. And I think that's a tad misleading. It may be true, but it may not be true too and whatever the situation was it's likely more complicated.

In a sports forum just about everything involves unknowns at times. If we are excluding any inferrence that’d eliminate about 75 percent of the convo on here

[DeBlazerRiddem]

Olshey wouldn't trade CJ for Paul George

and he wouldn't trade CJ for Jimmy Butler

so it's pretty easy to assume Olshey would hold CJ untouchable in a Simmons trade. However, I don't think Philly has much interest in a Simmons for CJ deal. I don't think Morey would value CJ that highly

Were those ever straight up on the table though? What deals were actually being required by the other team? I don't think CJ has ever had a high trade value so I doubt how easy those deals would have been to make if teams didn't like CJ.

So again we are inferring evidence from things that did not happen and I think that is a weak form of evidence where because there is a gap of knowledge we all fill it with our own conjecture. And then we present that conjecture, such as Olshey turned down trading CJ for PG and Butler, as some sort of fact. And I think that's a tad misleading. It may be true, but it may not be true too and whatever the situation was it's likely more complicated.

In a sports forum just about everything involves unknowns at times. If we are excluding any inferrence that’d eliminate about 75 percent of the convo on here

Sure, but to assert something as fact when it is inference is misleading. I think it very unlikely that a straight CJ for PG or Butler deal was ever on the table, and we don't know what else was required to make the deal happen. It is entirely possible that the teams we needed to work with just simply preferred someone else's assets to ours or there is a multitude of other possible reasons why it didn't happen. So saying that THE ABSOLUTE reason why a deal didn't happen is because Olshey wouldn't trade CJ is a very unsupported claim that can only exist because we do not know what actually happened behind the scenes. So excuse me for calling it weakly supported conjecture, maybe I am just doing a poor job making my point, I'm not saying it didn't happen but I am saying advancing that narrative as anything more than outside speculation is false whereas it seems to have been elevated to gospel at this point.


I mean, lets go back to the trades. PG was traded for Oladipo and Sabonis, is CJ alone worth more than that package was? Portland would have had to significantly add to match that value. Butler was traded for LaVine, Dunn and the #7 pick - was CJ worth more than that? Lots of people were very high on LaVine thinking he had way higher potential than CJ plus Dunn was well liked and thats a lottery pick. Maybe the Butler trade to the Sixers was closer to CJ value, but maybe the Twolves overvalued RoCo or couldn't afford CJ's contract at the time, meaning there are tons of alternative explanations besides Olshey simply wouldn't trade CJ. Maybe its true, but it certainly isn't the only explanation as to why things happened the way they did and its wrong to act like it is. Inference is fine, I agree we often have to do it to understand, but then acting like what you inferred is the only possible answer is not.

[JasonStern]

But I think inferring that Olshey wouldn't trade CJ for Simmons from a lack of information is a weak form of evidence, its no more than conjecture. It might be true, but it equally might not be true, so there really is no way to say or back up that statement. Personally I think it is MUCH more likely that Morey has rejected a straight up trade than Olshey has but, as The Dude would say, that's just like my opinion man.

Olshey wouldn't trade CJ for Paul George

and he wouldn't trade CJ for Jimmy Butler

so it's pretty easy to assume Olshey would hold CJ untouchable in a Simmons trade. However, I don't think Philly has much interest in a Simmons for CJ deal. I don't think Morey would value CJ that highly

Were those ever straight up on the table though? What deals were actually being required by the other team? I don't think CJ has ever had a high trade value so I doubt how easy those deals would have been to make if teams didn't like CJ.

Butler was. But it wasn't a straight-up trade. It was a CJ in his mid 20s plus multiple 1sts - some combination of the ones that wound up landing us 40 games of Zach Collins, 17 games of Caleb Swanigan, and the continued potential of Anfernee Simons.

The Bulls ultimately made the right move, but people forget that LaVine was coming off a significant injury and didn't have the trade value he has now, and that Dunn didn't look special and was throw-in. The Markkanen pick was the main piece the Bulls got in the trade at the time.

And also to be fair, while Butler was an all-star when he was traded from Chicago, he wasn't a top 15 player in the league at the time. His whole trade demand situation also tanked his value a bit.

We're also talking about a rumored trade from at least four failed Dame+CJ postseason runs ago...

As for trading for Paul George, I never heard from any reputable source any truth to trade rumors. Look at what assets the Blazers had available at the time. The warchest wasn't as stacked as when Butler was available. If you're talking about the Indiana trade, the Blazers didn't have the young talent to trade to top a Sabonis/Oladipo offer. And there was no way the Blazers were topping the Clippers offer, which was also contingent on them signing Kawhi in free agency.

[DusterBuster]

As for trading for Paul George, I never heard from any reputable source any truth to trade rumors. Look at what assets the Blazers had available at the time. The warchest wasn't as stacked as when Butler was available. If you're talking about the Indiana trade, the Blazers didn't have the young talent to trade to top a Sabonis/Oladipo offer. And there was no way the Blazers were topping the Clippers offer, which was also contingent on them signing Kawhi in free agency.

Jason Quick has mentioned that the Blazers did make an aggressive push for George when he was available by the Pacers. If I remember correctly, the issue was Pritchard. He basically has any Portland area code blocked on his phone and just refuses to work with the Blazers organization in any way shape or form.

Granted, who knows the truth to that or not, but there was a source on that rumor.

[Norm2953]

With the confirmation that confirms Ben Simmons is not going to report to Philly, the clock is ticking on
a Simmons trade. We've all seen these things before and most of us know CJ could help Philly win if they
pull the trigger on a trade with Portland for it does get him as far away from Philly as possible. It's a matter
of when Morey's ego finally gives up and wants it all to end.

[JRoy]

Quinn Cook doesn’t bring anything this team doesn’t already have, in spades.

Unless there is shooting outbound..

[DusterBuster]

With the confirmation that confirms Ben Simmons is not going to report to Philly, the clock is ticking on
a Simmons trade. We've all seen these things before and most of us know CJ could help Philly win if they
pull the trigger on a trade with Portland for it does get him as far away from Philly as possible. It's a matter
of when Morey's ego finally gives up and wants it all to end.

It’s also a matter of if Portland / Olshey is even interested in a CJ for Simmons trade. I think there’s enough reason to believe he may not even want to do that trade if Morey did.

[Wizenheimer]

Olshey wouldn't trade CJ for Paul George

and he wouldn't trade CJ for Jimmy Butler

so it's pretty easy to assume Olshey would hold CJ untouchable in a Simmons trade. However, I don't think Philly has much interest in a Simmons for CJ deal. I don't think Morey would value CJ that highly

Were those ever straight up on the table though?

no...because Olshey would not include CJ. He held CJ untochable in a trade for PG13; and he held CJ untouchable in a trade for Jimmy Butler

https://www.blazersedge.com/2017/7/2/15911824/nba-trades-paul-george-trail-blazers-offer-2017-draft-picks

can't find the link right now, but it was Dwight Jaynes (an Olshey mouthpiece) who said that Lillard and CJ were off the table in Butler discussions

so, we don't know how the other teams would have reacted because CJ was not offered for either player

if what you're saying is we vcan't speculate without having some record of the trade discussions, there isn't much reason for a fan forum

[Village Idiot]

Jason Quick at The Athletic is doing a fantastic job this week. He has two articles which are really enlightening:

Six weeks that changed Chauncey Billups’ future: When Tyronn Lue moved in

Blazers’ Jusuf Nurkic sees opportunity to thrive with Chauncey Billups as coach: ‘This is my chance’The key points from this article is that Nurk is in fantastic physical and mental shape and should have a much more prominent offensive role. Also it sounds like Nurk and Chauncey were communicating daily all summer and have a longstanding relationship from when Nurk was with the Nuggets and Chauncey was a Denver based guy. It sounds like our defensive coverages will be much more aggressive and mixed than under Stotts.

I feel like the coaching change has been less of a topic of conversation than it should have been and could have been. Part of that is Olshey's botching his introductory press conference, part is Blazersedge's incessant witch hunt and partly the fact that its hard to get behind a guy who supposedly did some very bad things to another human being.

Nonetheless he is this team's coach and the upside from his potential impact is massive. This is really going to be a make or break year for this group's run. I for one am optimistic.

Also wanted to add that CJ McCollum is putting down roots, literally, in Oregon: NBA Star CJ McCollum Buys 318-Acre Oregon Property for Vineyard

[BlazersBroncos]

If this Simmons saga drags on into JAN, I wonder if PHI would be interested in Powell + RoCo for Ben + Niang?

This looks pretty explosive. And taking the ball from CJ as the #2 creator and using him as a off ball shooter is what I have hoped for going on years now.

G - Damian Lillard (34) / Anfernee Simons (14) / Dennis Smith Jr (?)
G - CJ McCollum (32) / Anfernee Simons (16) / Ben McLemore / CJ Elleby
F - Ben Simmons (30) / Tony Snell (18) / Nassir Little
F - Larry Nance Jr (30) / Georges Niang (18) / Greg Brown
C - Jusuf Nurkic (26) / Cody Zeller (22) / Marquese Chriss

Leaning on Simons to be a 30mpg 6th man could be a big ask, but any trade will require guys to step up IMO. Force feed the kid and ensure he always is on the floor w/ CJ or Dame.

[Wizenheimer]

If this Simmons saga drags on into JAN, I wonder if PHI would be interested in Powell + RoCo for Ben + Niang?

This looks pretty explosive. And taking the ball from CJ as the #2 creator and using him as a off ball shooter is what I have hoped for going on years now.

G - Damian Lillard (34) / Anfernee Simons (14) / Dennis Smith Jr (?)
G - CJ McCollum (32) / Anfernee Simons (16) / Ben McLemore / CJ Elleby
F - Ben Simmons (30) / Tony Snell (18) / Nassir Little
F - Larry Nance Jr (30) / Georges Niang (18) / Greg Brown
C - Jusuf Nurkic (26) / Cody Zeller (22) / Marquese Chriss

Leaning on Simons to be a 30mpg 6th man could be a big ask, but any trade will require guys to step up IMO. Force feed the kid and ensure he always is on the floor w/ CJ or Dame.

three lineup options, first yours:

Dame-CJ-Simmons-Nance-Nurkic

or

Dame-Powell-RoCo-Simmons-Nurkic

or

Dame-Powell-RoCo-Nance-Simmons

the worst lineup is the first one. The last 6 years have absolutely proven the ceiling of any lineup that has Dame/CJ starting. CJ is not going to drop his usage or stop dribbling or become Tony Allen on defense. He is what he is, and the main thing he is, is the roadblock to Portland being a contender

whereas the next two lineups are both possible if the Blazers fire Olshey's ass and get a GM who recognizes the reality...and trades CJ instead of valuing him as a top-15 player in the league

[Norm2953]

Ask our old friend Steve Blake if the team wouldn't trade a player who wanted to put down his roots in
Oregon.

[BlazersBroncos]

If this Simmons saga drags on into JAN, I wonder if PHI would be interested in Powell + RoCo for Ben + Niang?

This looks pretty explosive. And taking the ball from CJ as the #2 creator and using him as a off ball shooter is what I have hoped for going on years now.

G - Damian Lillard (34) / Anfernee Simons (14) / Dennis Smith Jr (?)
G - CJ McCollum (32) / Anfernee Simons (16) / Ben McLemore / CJ Elleby
F - Ben Simmons (30) / Tony Snell (18) / Nassir Little
F - Larry Nance Jr (30) / Georges Niang (18) / Greg Brown
C - Jusuf Nurkic (26) / Cody Zeller (22) / Marquese Chriss

Leaning on Simons to be a 30mpg 6th man could be a big ask, but any trade will require guys to step up IMO. Force feed the kid and ensure he always is on the floor w/ CJ or Dame.

three lineup options, first yours:

Dame-CJ-Simmons-Nance-Nurkic

or

Dame-Powell-RoCo-Simmons-Nurkic

or

Dame-Powell-RoCo-Nance-Simmons

the worst lineup is the first one. The last 6 years have absolutely proven the ceiling of any lineup that has Dame/CJ starting. CJ is not going to drop his usage or stop dribbling or become Tony Allen on defense. He is what he is, and the main thing he is, is the roadblock to Portland being a contender

whereas the next two lineups are both possible if the Blazers fire Olshey's ass and get a GM who recognizes the reality...and trades CJ instead of valuing him as a top-15 player in the league

Well, ya. My assumption was that PHI isnt interested in CJ for Ben, but may be interested in Powell + RoCo for Ben.

I easily would prefer CJ + Picks for Ben, then CJ + RoCo for Ben, then Powell + RoCo for Ben. But I think the latter would be the most appealing for PHI.

I also dont think there is a possibility that we get Ben for CJ w/o including RoCo. I just dont think a 1-for-1 swap (even w/ picks) gets PHI interested.

[Case2012]

Read on Twitter

Everyone knows Stephan A is a clown so take it for what’s it worth, but it’s encouraging to at least hear of something from Portland’s end. Is that an overpay? Probably, but I would still do it. I’d want Danny Greens corpse back to replace some of the wing defense and veteran playoff experience would be welcome as well.

[DusterBuster]

I have to wonder what things would have been like had the Dame drama not been so public this summer…. If he’s right and the Blazers we’re willing to offer all that for Simmons but the Dame stuff was under wraps, would Morey be as (seemingly) tunnel visioned on Dame or bust for a Simmons deal? Would Simmons be more agreeable to playing in Portland knowing Dame is locked in for the next 3yrs?

[zzaj]

Regarding the CJ for Butler and PG deals. I recall that CJ was on the table for Butler. I also remember that PG wanted to go to LA...that was probably the biggest consideration.

I wonder how big of a role Lillard has to play in this. I would hope that if behind closed doors Lillard was all in on Simmons in Portland then Olshey would ship CJ out. I wouldn't expect Lillard to say that publicly.