Wizenheimer wrote:Luv those Knicks wrote:
The Knicks had the worst record in the NBA over about a 19 year stretch, 2001-02 to 2019-20. Just 2 winning seasons in that stretch, 42 and 54 wins, 2 17 game win seasons, 2 more 23 win seasons and 21 in the covid shortened season, but we never picked higher than 3. Traded too many of those picks away and our rooting for the tank never seemed to work out, though I remember those days well.
Hoping for Zion (We got RJ), and there was some optimism when we drafted Porzingas, but he never turned into a superstar. Tanking can be rough, unless you get lucky, but good luck to you.
I'm curious so I'll track the Knicks lottery picks in the period you mention:
2002:
7 NYK Nenê
9 PHO Amar'e Stoudemire
10 MIA Caron Butler
23 DET Tayshaun Prince
2003:
9 NYK Mike Sweetney
18 NOH David West
39 NYK Slavko Vraneš
47 UTA Mo Williams
2005:
8 NYK Channing Frye
17 IND Danny Granger
2008:
6 NYK Danilo Gallinari
10 NJN Brook Lopez
24 SEA Serge Ibaka
2009:
8 NYK Jordan Hill
9 TOR DeMar DeRozan
17 PHI Jrue Holiday
2015:
4 NYK Kristaps Porziņģis
11 IND Myles Turner
13 PHO Devin Booker
2017:
8 NYK Frank Ntilikina
11 CHO Malik Monk
13 DEN Donovan Mitchell
14 MIA Bam Adebayo
19 ATL John Collins
22 BRK Jarrett Allen
23 TOR OG Anunoby
44 NYK Damyean Dotson
45 HOU Dillon Brooks
2018:
9 NYK Kevin Knox
10 PHI Mikal Bridges
11 CHO Shai Gilgeous-Alexander
12 LAC Miles Bridges
2019:
3 NYK RJ Barrett
4 LAL De'Andre Hunter
5 CLE Darius Garland
11 MIN Cameron Johnson
13 MIA Tyler Herro
2020:
8 NYK Obi Toppin
9 WAS Deni Avdija
12 SAC Tyrese Haliburton
21 PHI Tyrese Maxey
2022:
11 NYK Ousmane Dieng
12 OKC Jalen Williams
I noticed all the gaps. Don't know what the picks were traded for
but there are a lot of pretty big miscalculations there. Dieng instead of Jalen Williams; Toppin instead of Haliburton; Kevin Knox instead of SGA or Bridges; Ntilikina instead of Adebayo or Mitchell; Porzingis instead of Booker; Jordan Hill instead of DeRozan or Jrue
Knicks could have a backcourt of SGA, Booker, & Maxey with Adebayo at C. Of course, being able to pay all those guys is another matter
it does point out that taking advantage of the lottery requires equal amounts of being smart and good luck
I'm not sure that I should go into it here. It's history now, and a lesson in mis-management, but the trades hurt too, and not tanking maybe hurt the most.
2002 draft: The Nene pick wasn't NY as a deal had already been worked out. NY would draft Nene. The Nuggets would draft who the Knicks wanted at 25, and those 2 players would be part of the Camby for McDyess trade.
Knick fans LOVED Amare, but Dolan wanted to win, and he coveted a guy like McDyess, coming off a season where he missed 72 games, it was an iffy move, but I understood. Spree/Houston were a good pair of guards, even if Spree was pushed to play small forward, and adding Dyess to that could have meant 50 wins, if Dyess has been healthy. He got hurt that pre-season and never played a game, but I will say that I watched him that pre-season and he was exactly what we needed. He broke his knee that pre-season and was never the same after, though he had a few good years as a 6th man, but he was never the same as he was when he was young.
Amare could have been that, and the fans were down for Amare. In hindsight, no McDyess trade, keep Camby and draft Amare, even with Spree/Houston over 30, that might have worked.
2003 draft: I don't think Sweetney was a bad pick at the time. He just didn't age well. Gained weight, later there were reported bouts of depression. West was the opposite. A bunch of teams passed on him because he didn't stand out as a top 10 pick to anybody, but he got better. His 3rd season when New Orleans began to start him, along rookie Chris Paul is when he began to take off. A lot of teams overlooked West not just NY.
The problem with the 02-03 season, after Dyess went down, is NY didn't tank. They'd invested in Houston to a ridiculous 6 year, 100 million dollar contract a year or so earlier, so he was untradable, but they could have traded Spree, traded Kurt, made a run in the rich 2003 draft (Melo, leBron, Bosh, Wade and . . . er, Darko). They didn't. They grinded out 37 pointless wins and got the #9 pick, when a top 5 pick would have been better (as long as they avoided Darko).
This is something every team has gone through - "if only we'd tanked that year". But, it wasn't the last time NY made that choice either. They also missed out on Seth Curry because a bad knicks team played hard and grinded out useless wins so they pick Jordan Hill also at 9.
2004 draft and 03-04 season: NY is a bad team. Spree was traded for some white dude named Keith van Horn. (Can I say he was a white dude? I'm white. He played like a white guy) . . . OK, sorry. Fans couldn't think of enough names for him. "Mr. Softee", with the icecream cone. "Keith van fluffernutter" was another. Fluff, I mean, van Horn wasn't a bad player, but Spree was a better player and he had heart and we missed that. Spree had some good years ahead of him. Knicks also signed 37 year old Dikembe Mutombo, which was fine, I guess, for 20 minutes a game, but he wasn't a difference maker anymore.
The soft-serve Knicks (Houston could shoot, but he was soft, Keith van Horn was soft), were 14-21, not losing enough for a top pick, not looking like a playoff team and Isiah, our then GM, decides, "We need Marbury, lets get Marbury" . . say goodbye to 2004 and 2010 picks (the 2010 one ended up being better, #9, Gordan Haywood but could have been Paul George).
After a 14-21 start, the Marbury Knicks went 25-22, so it was a mid-first rounder for 2004, but had they tanked. Dwight Howard? Iguodala? Al Jefferson? Maybe. You never know.
But Isiah wanted Marbury and the LOL knicks were underway.
Then Isiah wanted Jamal Crawford, who was fine, but not worth the picks
Then he wanted Eddy Curry (who cost us the pick that became LaMarcus Aldridge - #2 overall).
Then he hires Larry Brown who never saw an old-washed up player he didn't like, so he adds Steve Francis (we already had Marbury . . . why Larry, why?), and Penny Hardaway and Tracy McGrady, both much to banged up to help, and at that point, we were known around the league as the LOL knicks. Send us your broken and overpaid players. We'll take them.
I'll stop now, because I don't want to get into the Melo trade, and Melo was a good player, but it's hard to build around a player, even a player that good, when they've traded a bunch of picks and youth and have zero cap space.
Sorry for all that history. I write too much. But . . . those 19 years. Wow. Papa Dolan ran the Knicks with a "We have to win this year" attitude and it lead to NY having the most losses over a long stretch. The younger Dolan seems to have learned the advantage to shedding salary, tanking and letting the GM run the show and giving the GM time, so things are better now, but we had an ugly stretch.
NY wasn't just the losingest team in the NBA over that stretch, but they did it while spending the most money and trying to win most of those years, though they did settle into tanking a few times towards the end. But, how bad do you have to be do be #1 in both spending and losing?
Every team has draft misses. Picking the right player in the draft is hard, and part luck. No scout gets it right every time.
I'll stop now. Sorry for all the typing.
Good luck with your rebuild.
