Greatest Blazers Ever: Vote for #3: Brandon Roy vs. Maurice Lucas runoff

[JasonStern]

We need to take off our rose tinted glasses. Brandon Roy was a respected, and respectable, player - but by no means was he a superstar. Superstars are considered the top (or second best, at worst) at their position, they start all star games, and they are featured in advertisements. Brandon Roy was on his way to being that type of player, but he never quite reached that level.

Kobe was the best SG during that period of time
Wade was the second best SG during that period of time
Ray Allen was still up there in importance at the SG position
Joe Johnson was up there in significance at the SG position

I'd say that Roy is in the top 5 at his position at the time, but I have a hard time saying he was a sure thing to be in the Top 3 SGs of his era.

no. Roy was viewed by many as a top 5-10 player:

http://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1yflrk/how_good_was_brandon_roy/

he wasn't second team all-NBA at shooting guard because the entire league had "rose tinted glasses". he didn't reach that peak for long, but it's ignorant to think that anyone would have traded a prime Brandon Roy for an aging Ray Allen or second tier Joe Johnson.

We never got out of the first round with Roy.

and when Walton was out and Lucas was the #1 option, how did Portland do with the supposed "stacked" 1970s teams? that's right - lost in the first round to the Sonics, then lost in the first round to the Suns, then lost in the first round to the Sonics again.

[Moonbeam]

Sorry, I should have been clear! If you have already voted for one of the two candidates (Brandon Roy or Maurice Lucas), you do not need to vote again. Of course, you can change your vote if you are swayed by any of the arguments here.

[HoopsFanAZ]

Fitz, you're right that Luke only had 2 20-point seasons in his career … and Roy would've had more than the 2 that he had if not for his knees.

… and Luke had double-double seasons only 4 times, close on 3 others and not counting the 3 in the ABA where his best was 20 and 15
… and Walton was better in the 65 games he played in 1976-77 and in the 58 the following year, but Luke played in 79 of the low 80s total (82 total?) (Luke only had 68 and 69 in the 2 following years). Luke helped carry the Blazers when Walton wasn't there to a special season. Walton -- clearly the better of the two. Without Walton? Forget about it. Without Luke? Forget about it.

Roy was special. 3rd? 4th? 5th? Let's just say the starting line-up would've been Walton-Lucas-Drexler-Roy-Porter.

[DaVoiceMaster]

Am I supposed to vote again or my vote for Porter still stands? Terry Porter is the man! Nuff' said

I think you should vote for me if you want to vote for someone not in the running.

Dang, I missed the post where Porter got dropped. Sorry d-train, if I can't vote for Porter, I'm not voting for you.

My vote goes to...... Maurice Lucas The guy helped bring a championship to Portland and he stood tall against Darrell Dawkins in that championship fight. BAM!!!

[Brandon-Clyde]

Am I supposed to vote again or my vote for Porter still stands? Terry Porter is the man! Nuff' said

I think you should vote for me if you want to vote for someone not in the running.

Dang, I missed the post where Porter got dropped. Sorry d-train, if I can't vote for Porter, I'm not voting for you.

My vote goes to...... Maurice Lucas The guy helped bring a championship to Portland and he stood tall against Darrell Dawkins in that championship fight. BAM!!!

Wait. Vote for me and Ill let you pick a GLB

[JasonStern]

I know I sound bitter, but damn! the only justification for Lucas has been that he "helped bring a championship" to Portland in a sidekick role. Bob Gross did that. if that's the best argument people have, then split your votes.

what did Lucas do when he was handed the keys? get mediocre results with a revisionist "elite" squad in an era of d-league basketball. and that's not a knock on that era of basketball, but everyone is kidding themselves if they think that the popularity of the game, the evolutions of sports medicine, the evolution of game strategies - which these founding fathers of basketball definitely helped us achieve - are inconsequential. the level of talent is better now than it has ever been, which as fans we should hope to expect

Lucas as "the man" led Portland to 3 first round playoff exits in a time where there were 16? teams (MojoMarc will correct me on this). Aldridge led us to the second round in a stacked western conference. honestly, let's look at the roster of the Suns team that knocked out Lucas' Blazers:

33 Alvan Adams C 6-9 210 July 19, 1954 3 University of Oklahoma
23 Mike Bratz PG 6-2 185 October 17, 1955 1 Stanford University
10 Don Buse PG 6-4 190 August 10, 1950 6 University of Evansville
45 Marty Byrnes SF 6-7 215 April 30, 1956 R Syracuse University
6 Walter Davis SF 6-6 193 September 9, 1954 1 University of North Carolina
35 Bayard Forrest C 6-10 235 July 8, 1954 1 Grand Canyon University
24 Gar Heard PF 6-6 219 May 3, 1948 8 University of Oklahoma
50 Joel Kramer PF 6-7 203 November 30, 1955 R San Diego State University
30 Ron Lee PG 6-4 193 November 2, 1952 2 University of Oregon
12 Ted McClain SG 6-1 180 August 30, 1946 7 Tennessee State University
21 Truck Robinson PF 6-7 225 October 4, 1951 4 Tennessee State University
14 Alvin Scott SF 6-7 185 September 14, 1955 1 Oral Roberts University
44 Paul Westphal SG 6-4 195 November 30, 1950 6 University of Southern California

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/1979.html

really? I honestly thought Walter Davis was a politician, and he probably was!

like I get that there is a "my prime was the greatest generation" bias, but arguing things like "Lucas averaged 20 points a game in an era where teams scored 120+ nightly despite REAL MAN defense" is a joke, leaving those that do so sounding like:

[Agenda42]

Roy was special. 3rd? 4th? 5th? Let's just say the starting line-up would've been Walton-Lucas-Drexler-Roy-Porter.

I don't think I'd put Lucas in that lineup. Aldridge was better, for longer, and looked significantly better as the #1 guy. He also provides the floor spacing for Roy and Drexler to do their work. The main knock against Aldridge has always been his relatively inefficient scoring, but guess what? Lucas was even less efficient than Aldridge.

[d-train]

Am I supposed to vote again or my vote for Porter still stands? Terry Porter is the man! Nuff' said

I think you should vote for me if you want to vote for someone not in the running.

Dang, I missed the post where Porter got dropped. Sorry d-train, if I can't vote for Porter, I'm not voting for you.

My vote goes to...... Maurice Lucas The guy helped bring a championship to Portland and he stood tall against Darrell Dawkins in that championship fight. BAM!!!

The only player that was hit in that fight was Collins and he was punched by his teammate Dawkins. Punching Collins is equal to hitting a girl. Lucas and Dawkins never hit each other except a shove by Lucas when Dawkins had his back turned. I give Luke an A for willingness but a D for fighting skill. Dawkins gets an F. You get no credit for punching your girly teammate.

[Wizenheimer]

Roy was special. 3rd? 4th? 5th? Let's just say the starting line-up would've been Walton-Lucas-Drexler-Roy-Porter.

I don't think I'd put Lucas in that lineup. Aldridge was better, for longer, and looked significantly better as the #1 guy. He also provides the floor spacing for Roy and Drexler to do their work. The main knock against Aldridge has always been his relatively inefficient scoring, but guess what? Lucas was even less efficient than Aldridge.

Aldridge was a little more efficient, and did so with a higher usage rate...that's a positive

Lucas was a better rebounder and better at drawing fouls. I think he was a better defender too, especially against strength

but if we're talking about a PF to plug into that lineup, I don't think Aldridge would be a good fit. Drexler and Roy will be dominating the ball. Both are better then Aldridge...by quite a bit, and Aldridge would be ineffective as a 3rd fiddle IMO. I think Rasheed or Buck Williams would be better PF's for that lineup

[HoopsFanAZ]

My brother liked the Steelers in the 70s. I liked the 49ers. We agreed about the Cowboys.

After looking at the numbers and thinking a short time about Roy and Luke's games and teams and … it comes down to this:
Luke was a highly skilled player at both ends of the court and exactly no one really wanted to mess with him … punches missing or not … and how he went to shake hands prior to the next game … sportsmanship with mind game effects. So, yeah, on this one I've gone beyond numbers a bit and Roy was flat out amazing at times.

If you don't see it the way I do, or even remotely so, it may not even be agree to disagree … maybe I'm just wrong. Maybe it's valuing options differently and still my being wrong.

For me, sometimes, how otherwise reasonable and decent people see a situation dialectically in opposition to my perceptions is baffling. I've gotten used to that. But on the big stuff, it's like trying to understand why a Pekingese could ever be chosen over a bullmastiff at the Westminster dog show. I know there are legitimate reasons and breed standards … but one's a dog and the other is a furry, moving ottoman …

[Moonbeam]

I'm a bit confused...what is this "runoff" about?

Yeah, I haven't done a good job of making it clear what happens in a runoff. My apologies, everyone!

If no single player receives a majority of the votes (Roy had 9 of the 25), the top two candidates will enter a runoff period of 24 hours. Every original vote for these two candidates still counts, but the runoff allows anyone to cast a vote for the top two such that a majority is achieved.

As I voted for Porter, if I want my vote to count toward who gets in, I'll have to vote for Roy or Lucas. If someone didn't vote but is prepared to vote in the runoff, that's ok as well! And if any of the Roy or Lucas voters are swayed by arguments made by others, they can switch their votes.

[Moonbeam]

My runoff vote is for Brandon Roy. He was pretty clearly a top 10 player. Lucas may have been as well (he did get an All-NBA 2nd team nod in 1977-78), but I think Roy probably has an edge in peak performance. The longevity angle is pretty comparable between them (Roy has a modest edge in minutes), so that peak edge matters. Plus, I think Roy's playoff performance against Houston was incredible, in addition to the fact that he was able to lead an offense that was dead last in the league in 2005-06 to #1 in the league at his apex in 2008-09.

Roy has an edge statistically (38.4 WS to 26.2 for Lucas, 15.6 VORP to 7.4 for Lucas, edge in PER). He looks better by raw simple WOWY measures as well. It's possible that Lucas is being given an unfair look with these statistics (defensive players often are overlooked, especially by PER), but the gaps aren't that small.

[Agenda42]

but if we're talking about a PF to plug into that lineup, I don't think Aldridge would be a good fit. Drexler and Roy will be dominating the ball. Both are better then Aldridge...by quite a bit, and Aldridge would be ineffective as a 3rd fiddle IMO. I think Rasheed or Buck Williams would be better PF's for that lineup

I was more saying "best Blazer PF" than looking at fit.

I agree, I'd take Sheed for that lineup. Better low usage player.

[Norm2953]

Given the limitations of the choices, I'll go with B-Roy who if healthy would be an elite player
today. After the Jail Blazers, much was expected of the rookies of 2006 and B-Roy delivered
from the very first day.

[TBpup]

Vote: Maurice Lucas

It's tough because Roy could have been an easy #3 but injuries limited his tenure. So we are stuck with a couple of very good seasons for both. What sways it for me is Roy had some amazing moments, Lucas had an NBA Title. Also, for that era, he was a premier enforcer which allowed Walton to do what he did. It was in his honor Bill named his son Luke. Lucas was as valuable with or without the ball which I'm not sure can be said for Roy.

[Moonbeam]

Final tally:

Brandon Roy (15): d-train, Wizenheimer, mojomarc, Agenda42, jeffhardyfan52, Capn'O, zzaj, rasta_marley, JasonStern, Masterfully, Fitz303, Quotatious, Brandon-Clyde, Moonbeam, Norm2953

Maurice Lucas (9): Oden2, Run PDX, kdawg32086, Soulyss, TheEnforcer20, HoopsFanAZ, PDX MM, DaVoiceMaster, TBPup

And the #3 spot goes to #7. May it hang in the rafters someday.

[Moonbeam]

We need to take off our rose tinted glasses. Brandon Roy was a respected, and respectable, player - but by no means was he a superstar. Superstars are considered the top (or second best, at worst) at their position, they start all star games, and they are featured in advertisements. Brandon Roy was on his way to being that type of player, but he never quite reached that level.

Kobe was the best SG during that period of time
Wade was the second best SG during that period of time
Ray Allen was still up there in importance at the SG position
Joe Johnson was up there in significance at the SG position

I'd say that Roy is in the top 5 at his position at the time, but I have a hard time saying he was a sure thing to be in the Top 3 SGs of his era.

I also am not sure I'd call Roy a superstar, but maybe I employ stricter use of that term (I reserve it generally for around 5 players in the league). Roy was clearly #3 at the SG position and knocking on the door of #2 (Kobe). I'd take the 2009 version of Wade over any version of Kobe.

[DaVoiceMaster]

I think you should vote for me if you want to vote for someone not in the running.

Dang, I missed the post where Porter got dropped. Sorry d-train, if I can't vote for Porter, I'm not voting for you.

My vote goes to...... Maurice Lucas The guy helped bring a championship to Portland and he stood tall against Darrell Dawkins in that championship fight. BAM!!!

The only player that was hit in that fight was Collins and he was punched by his teammate Dawkins. Punching Collins is equal to hitting a girl. Lucas and Dawkins never hit each other except a shove by Lucas when Dawkins had his back turned. I give Luke an A for willingness but a D for fighting skill. Dawkins gets an F. You get no credit for punching your girly teammate.

Choose your own words then to describe the fight. Clearly you know what I'm talking about, as does most everyone else. Why do you choose to argue such silly things?