CJ for ???

[Wizenheimer]

My apologies.

no need for apology....I pump out a lot of verbiage and numbers so minor details can get swamped

[HoopsFanAZ]

Here’s a theory.
CJ was a little guy playing hoops (early photos made him look almost tiny), but he wasn’t an aggressive draw contact guy. His handles and hesitation sneaky game rivals that of Sam Cassell. His ability to get space to shoot 3s or midrange just doesn’t draw contact — by design.

A weakness (size) developed a unique strength and an NBA skill, BUT his over reliance doesn’t get easy points at the line (where he’s elite). By changing it up, he would create more space as defenders try to then avoid contact (making his game even more effective and efficient), and he’d get defenders in foul trouble making them less aggressive.

[No-Man]

Could the Blazers have pulled of a similar trade?

CJ+Collins+2019 1st protected for Kawhi and Green? maybe add another player like Swanigan if the Spurs think CJ slightly worse than DeMar

[BlazersBroncos]

Could the Blazers have pulled of a similar trade?

CJ+Collins+2019 1st protected for Kawhi and Green? maybe add another player like Swanigan if the Spurs think CJ slightly worse than DeMar

Portland could easily have made that trade if the TOR deal was enough for SAS. Thing is, IMO, Kawai going to TOR is a lot less of a flight risk than PDX. Portland isn't a metropolis like Toronto, and we attract even less FA than Toronto. So having Kawai as a 1 year rental and then letting him walk, and losing all the value we dealt for him, would be a tremendous blow to this team. It would tank us in 2019/20 and likely Damian would get sick of the whole deal and demand out. Again, this is all IMO, but it was just too risky.

Toronto is a huge city with a metropolis like nightlife and its own mini entertainment industry. I think people really underrate the impact Drake may have on convincing Leonard to stick in TOR. It sounds crazy to say, but its a true variable in keeping him IMO.

[Wizenheimer]

Could the Blazers have pulled of a similar trade?

CJ+Collins+2019 1st protected for Kawhi and Green? maybe add another player like Swanigan if the Spurs think CJ slightly worse than DeMar

Portland could easily have made that trade if the TOR deal was enough for SAS.

I disagree

Jakob Poeltl is a much better player than Collins at this point in time, and it's not close. He plays defense better and has show decent rim protection (2.4 blocks vs 1.1 per 36). But unlike Collins, Poeltl hasn't struggled on the offensive end, just the opposite (Poeltl was 3rd in the NBA in TS%); and he has shown good offensive rebounding instincts, which is almost always a good sign

I'd be pretty convinced that the Spurs would, by a large degree, value the established talent of Poeltl over the potential of Collins, especially considering that Poeltl, at 22, has plenty of upside potential himself

[cucad8]

I disagree

Jakob Poeltl is a much better player than Collins at this point in time, and it's not close. He plays defense better and has show decent rim protection (2.4 blocks vs 1.1 per 36).

Much better and not close implies, to me, a good established player, and someone that has shown nothing. Like, Clint Capela is much better than Collins, and it's not close.

Blocks are a nice way to show...blocks. But doesn't necessarily show better rim protection.
Opponents shoot a lower percentage in the restricted area against Collins, and a lower percentage in the mid range shot against Collins. If he goes up vertically and doesn't block a shot, it's still protecting the rim. Which stats show he does a better job of, at least when looking at how often players convert baskets there. Mid range percentage, to me, shows his ability in defending the pick and roll, and his versatility in defending in other areas.
I'm not arguing that Collins is a better player, or a better prospect. I just don't see how it's not even close, considering Poetl is two years older, and more importantly, has an extra year in the leaguee. Especially if you just grab blocks as his rim protection.

[HoopsFanAZ]

Poetl has good footwork and looks smoother around the hoop on O. His hops and 2nd hops aren’t as quick or as consistently vertical.
Collins has a fuctional stroke from 3 that will take reps and work to make it a weapon. Poetl hasn’t shown one.
Poetl will put on some muscle and still be a fairly mobile center. Collins has and will continue to put on muscle and is a PF who will play against some centers. Collins will be able to guard both big positions. Poetl? Not from what I’ve seen.

Nurk vs. Poetl? Skills and abilities at this point? Not that close for me. Nurk.
Collins vs. Poetl? I’d take Collins, but as Wiz said, Poetl may be a better fit for the Spurs. They have Aldridge.
It’s early, yet, for both players.

[d-train]

Could the Blazers have pulled of a similar trade?

CJ+Collins+2019 1st protected for Kawhi and Green? maybe add another player like Swanigan if the Spurs think CJ slightly worse than DeMar

Yes, but it wouldn't be prudent. IMO, Raptors made a stupid deal. Raptors got the best player in the trade, which is good. But, Raptors inherited the same deal Spurs had with Kawhi, as far as we know. The report is Kawhi will not sign an extension and has no plans to change his 2019 free agency plans.

Blazers could have offered CJ, Collins, and a 2019 1st. This IMO is better than what Spurs got from Raptors. But, it's a bad deal for Blazers. The remaining Blazers team is not a good bet to make it into 2019 finals over Warriors and Rockets. The improved Blazers team might not overtake Pelicans, Jazz, or the improved Lakers. At least Raptors are almost shoe-ins to make the finals in the east.

The Raptors are betting on Kawhi being their final pierce the way Pistons did with Rasheed Wallace. Kawhi might improve Raptors the way Rasheed improved Pistons, but Raptors won't win the finals. And, Pistons didn't give up any of their top players to get Rasheed. Rasheed joined Pistons 4 best players to make a super-team. That Piston's trade was literally a no-brainer. Raptors are upgrading their team, but they are upgrading arguably their best player. Pistons didn't trade Chauncey for Rasheed, they added Rasheed to Chauncey.

[Wizenheimer]

I disagree

Jakob Poeltl is a much better player than Collins at this point in time, and it's not close. He plays defense better and has show decent rim protection (2.4 blocks vs 1.1 per 36).

Much better and not close implies, to me, a good established player, and someone that has shown nothing. Like, Clint Capela is much better than Collins, and it's not close.

Blocks are a nice way to show...blocks. But doesn't necessarily show better rim protection.
Opponents shoot a lower percentage in the restricted area against Collins, and a lower percentage in the mid range shot against Collins. If he goes up vertically and doesn't block a shot, it's still protecting the rim. Which stats show he does a better job of, at least when looking at how often players convert baskets there. Mid range percentage, to me, shows his ability in defending the pick and roll, and his versatility in defending in other areas.
I'm not arguing that Collins is a better player, or a better prospect. I just don't see how it's not even close, considering Poetl is two years older, and more importantly, has an extra year in the leaguee. Especially if you just grab blocks as his rim protection.

sure, valid point, however, I wasn't arguing Poeltl was much better just because of blocks or rim protection:

PER: Collins 7.5....Poeltl 17.5
TS%: Collins .475....Poeltl .662
2ptFG%: Collins .455....Poeltl .660
FT Rate: Collins .145....Poeltl .263
reb rate: Collins 11.5%....Poeltl 14.4%
off reb rate: Collins 4.7%....Poeltl 12.4%
def reb rate: Collins 18.2%....Poeltl 16.4%
winshares/48: Collins .030....Poeltl .176
box plus/minus: Collins -3.2....Poeltl +3.3
Value over replacement: Collins -0.3....Poeltl +2.0
OffRPM: Collins -2.85....Poeltl -0.50
DefRPM: Collins -0.83....Poeltl +0.94
RPM: Collins -3.68....Poeltl +0.44
RPM Wins: Collins -0.36....Poeltl +3.46

looking at those numbers, overall, is where I got my 'not close' label. Sure don't look close to me

now obviously, context to all that can come from various directions. You mentioned that Poeltl had an extra year in the league; it's entirely possible a comparison a year for now would be much closer. But the context of my comment was on a trade that happened now, and how the Spurs might value Poeltl quite a bit higher then how they'd value Collins. If you gauge that Derozan and CJ have about the same value, and if you judge that a protected 1st from Portland and a protected 1st from Toronto would have close to the same value, then the difference in the trade is the difference between Poeltl and Zach and I saw 3 or 4 people here assuming that the Portland package could top the Toronto package from the Spurs perspective. I don't think that's true at all. And, while it's subjective, it just seems like Poeltl is the type of C that Popovich likes. A low usage high efficiency option. Also, If the Spurs are keeping Aldridge, my view is that an Aldridge/Poeltl pairing is better than an Aldridge/Collins pairing, at least it would seem so from what we know now

[HoopsFanAZ]

While I disagree with your final conclusion — based on my opinion of a longer-term basis — on the fit of Collins vs. Poetl, the Blazers wouldn’t have given up Collins in the first place with CJ. Aminu or Harkless is more likely than Collins (though Aminu is certainly better than Collins right now).

So, yes, San Antonio got a better deal than from Portland though I would suggest CJ + Aminu > DeRozan + Poetl for the Spurs. Whose pick would be worse for the Spurs is a tough argument given East vs. West competition and upgrading one’s 2nd best player instead of one’s best ... call it a draw.

[cucad8]

While I disagree with your final conclusion — based on my opinion of a longer-term basis — on the fit of Collins vs. Poetl, the Blazers wouldn’t have given up Collins in the first place with CJ. Aminu or Harkless is more likely than Collins (though Aminu is certainly better than Collins right now).

So, yes, San Antonio got a better deal than from Portland though I would suggest CJ + Aminu > DeRozan + Poetl for the Spurs. Whose pick would be worse for the Spurs is a tough argument given East vs. West competition and upgrading one’s 2nd best player instead of one’s best ... call it a draw.

We also could have adjusted value with pick protection. Raptors pick is top 20 protected, and then immediately becomes 2 seconds. I expect Toronto to be pretty good this year, especially in the east, but they can always trade kawhi now for a rebuilding package, and guarantee they don't lose a 1st.

[d-train]

We also could have adjusted value with pick protection. Raptors pick is top 20 protected, and then immediately becomes 2 seconds. I expect Toronto to be pretty good this year, especially in the east, but they can always trade kawhi now for a rebuilding package, and guarantee they don't lose a 1st.

The reason Raptors got the top 20 protection on the pick is price protection in the case Kawhi doesn't stay healthy or is intentionally disruptive. Raptors should win well over 60 games if Kawhi is healthy and cooperative. Raptors certainly will not trade Kawhi. They have no chance of recovering what they gave up to get him.

[JasonStern]

Could the Blazers have pulled of a similar trade?

CJ+Collins+2019 1st protected for Kawhi and Green? maybe add another player like Swanigan if the Spurs think CJ slightly worse than DeMar

sure, Kawhi Leonard is Lillard's age, an NBA champion, an NBA Finals MVP, a 2× All-Star, 2× All-NBA First Team, 2× NBA Defensive Player of the Year, and 3× NBA All-Defensive First Team, but does he really move the needle? this team needed shooters - not defenders or playoff ready veterans, and Olshey addressed this. the Blazers aren't going to mortgage the future to compete in a narrow window that, thanks to super teams like Golden State, might not even be open. 28 other teams would love to have a Lillard/McCollum back court, and if San Antonio would take that trade, then you see just how valuable a player like McCollum is around the league. plus with some internal development, which is huge for a small market team like Portland, guys like Leonard, Collins, Simons, etc. could become just as good some day.

[Jingles2]

Once Love can be traded CJ for Love. Both players go to their home states. For Portland it also opens up time for our young shooting guards.

[DusterBuster]

Once Love can be traded CJ for Love. Both players go to their home states. For Portland it also opens up time for our young shooting guards.

Which would be.......? Who exactly?

Portland's just gonna give their starting SG spot to a 2nd round rookie or a journeyman like Stauskas?

[tester551]

Once Love can be traded CJ for Love. Both players go to their home states. For Portland it also opens up time for our young shooting guards.

Nope. I liked the idea of Love on the cheap.

He's not worth CJ & especially not with his new contract.

[Jingles2]

Once Love can be traded CJ for Love. Both players go to their home states. For Portland it also opens up time for our young shooting guards.

Which would be.......? Who exactly?

Portland's just gonna give their starting SG spot to a 2nd round rookie or a journeyman like Stauskas?

Simons, Trent, Curry. Not that any of them are as good as CJ, but I think the team is better with Love than with CJ. Blazers aren't going to win anything with 50 million plus tied up in a Dame/CJ backcourt. We could probably net Clarkson in the deal too. Something like Love and Clarkson for CJ, Leonard, and another small piece. I would take a Dame, Curry/Trent/Simons, Harkless, Love, Nurkic starting group over Dame, CJ, Harkless, Aminu, Nurkic.

[BlazersBroncos]

Simons, Trent, Curry. Not that any of them are as good as CJ, but I think the team is better with Love than with CJ. Blazers aren't going to win anything with 50 million plus tied up in a Dame/CJ backcourt. We could probably net Clarkson in the deal too. Something like Love and Clarkson for CJ, Leonard, and another small piece. I would take a Dame, Curry/Trent/Simons, Harkless, Love, Nurkic starting group over Dame, CJ, Harkless, Aminu, Nurkic.

CJ for Love is totally lateral. In fact I would say that not only is CJ younger and a better scorer, but his defense as a SG is better than Love's defense as a big. Love is a huge liability to be PnR'd to death, especially in the playoffs.

If we can get Love on the cheap, you do it purely on the basis of bringing in more talent.

Also, Clarkson isn't a NBA rotational player on a good team. He was an empty stats guy in LAL who was exposed as a fraud when playing on a winning team. Think Jordan Crawford. All stats, no tangible effect on winning the game.

I do think an underrated move would be Evan Turner for Tim Hardaway Jr. and a protected pick. We take on a year of his deal, letting NYK get the cap space to snatch two big FA in 2020 and in return get a talent upgrade w/ a 3rd scorer and a pick. THJ is flawed but if we use him like ATL did, he could be a really nice addition. Go small and use him at SF backing up Harkless alot of the time. Thats the type of buy-low move that we should look at. If CJ is dealt, its for a clearly better player of nice bundle of assets. Albeit the latter means Lillard will be pissed, so really CJ is only gone for a clearly better player, and I dont see that player on the market.

[zzaj]

Simons, Trent, Curry. Not that any of them are as good as CJ, but I think the team is better with Love than with CJ. Blazers aren't going to win anything with 50 million plus tied up in a Dame/CJ backcourt. We could probably net Clarkson in the deal too. Something like Love and Clarkson for CJ, Leonard, and another small piece. I would take a Dame, Curry/Trent/Simons, Harkless, Love, Nurkic starting group over Dame, CJ, Harkless, Aminu, Nurkic.

CJ for Love is totally lateral. In fact I would say that not only is CJ younger and a better scorer, but his defense as a SG is better than Love's defense as a big. Love is a huge liability to be PnR'd to death, especially in the playoffs.

If we can get Love on the cheap, you do it purely on the basis of bringing in more talent.

Also, Clarkson isn't a NBA rotational player on a good team. He was an empty stats guy in LAL who was exposed as a fraud when playing on a winning team. Think Jordan Crawford. All stats, no tangible effect on winning the game.

I do think an underrated move would be Evan Turner for Tim Hardaway Jr. and a protected pick. We take on a year of his deal, letting NYK get the cap space to snatch two big FA in 2020 and in return get a talent upgrade w/ a 3rd scorer and a pick. THJ is flawed but if we use him like ATL did, he could be a really nice addition. Go small and use him at SF backing up Harkless alot of the time. Thats the type of buy-low move that we should look at. If CJ is dealt, its for a clearly better player of nice bundle of assets. Albeit the latter means Lillard will be pissed, so really CJ is only gone for a clearly better player, and I dont see that player on the market.

I would disagree with that...I think Clarkson would be fine as a 6th man, instant offense type of player coming off the bench on any kind of team...just like Jamal Crawford's (whom I think you mean) ideal role.

As for Turner for THjr? Sure...anything for Turner at this point I'd be open to. Although, with respect to fit, I think a reasonable argument could be made that in a Stotts' system 3pt shooting and playmaking are two important keys to the SF position...and THjr isn't good at either of those things.

I wouldn't ever want Kevin 'knuckle pushups' Love on a Blazer team. He's too injury prone, he's a poor PnR defender and he's hinted over the years that he isn't that interested in playing for his hometown team...

[DeBlazerRiddem]

I wouldn't ever want Kevin 'knuckle pushups' Love on a Blazer team. He's too injury prone, he's a poor PnR defender and he's hinted over the years that he isn't that interested in playing for his hometown team...

I don't think he even considers us a hometown.. sure its the place he played high school ball but he was born in Cali and went back there for college.

There is absolutely no way we should consider CJ for Love unless we get something ridiculous like an unprotected 2020 pick or something.