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Why is it time to move on from Collins?

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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#21 » by PDXKnight » Tue Aug 4, 2020 6:36 pm

Blazers20 wrote:The kid seems to always be in foul trouble and seems to fumble and drop the ball a lot. I don’t believe he can improve that much more than what we see today.


Guys that get fouls generally earn them. ZCo Is hard nosed and gritty guys like that are rare and you hang onto them

I think the foul issue resolved itself ultimately as he is recognized more around the league and as he avoids tacky fouls increasingly
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#22 » by monopoman » Wed Aug 5, 2020 12:53 am

Collins may get in foul trouble often but what people need to understand is he is getting 0 credit from the ref. Once his game matures a bit he will understand more about how to avoid fouls but also refs will back him up more. Once you get the notoriety as a good defender from the media it starts to change how refs perceive your game.

A great example in the Bubble games is when Gary Trent Jr. picked up a foul on a play where he 100% strips the ball from the opposing team. The ref just assumes a foul is there and that Gary grabbed or something but on replay you see he gets the ball cleanly. If Gary was 5-10 more years in the league the ref is less likely to blow the whistle there.

People always act like foul prone players never learn or never get better at that and I would say 75% of them do get better over time and the refs are also a part of it.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#23 » by monopoman » Wed Aug 5, 2020 1:03 am

Blazers20 wrote:I agree John would had been better but honestly at the time of the draft I wasn’t high on him. I actually liked Bam. But in retrospect NeO could had John Collins at 15, OG at 20 and Kuzma at 25.


You realize you can do this with every team right?

How about the ridiculous number of teams that passed up on Ginobli or Tony Parker? How about the ridiculous number of teams that could have had Joe Montana or Tom Brady as they were both taken extremely late in the draft.

The point is EVERY team misses on the best available player all the time for a number of reasons, picking the right player is about 50% luck and 50% skill and until we have a future telling device no team always picks right. **** you could give Neil credit for hitting on plenty of players even if they were eventually traded.

Will Barton at Round 2 pick 40 (One of the best picks of the draft for where he was selected.)
Lillard pick Round 1 pick 6 (Better than almost every player picked in 2012, only arguable player he was worse than is AD and that is debatable.)
Gary Trent Jr. Round 2 pick 37 (This will likely go down as a slam dunk pick he seems to be the type that any team would love to have.)

Even with the Z Collins pick there is no way in hell they take Mitchell over him since he would take minutes from CJ or Lillard. Bam maybe but that isn't set in stone as a way better pick.
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Re: Is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#24 » by Blazers20 » Wed Aug 5, 2020 2:28 pm

I don’t see Collins getting much better. He seems to drop quite a bit of passes and rebounds.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#25 » by Blazers20 » Wed Aug 5, 2020 2:30 pm

Collins didn’t workout for the Blazers but yet he was still drafted? Could the workout been more telling if Blazer coaches ran him thru some drills? Hindsight there were so many misses opportunities.
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Re: Is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#26 » by Blazinaway » Wed Aug 5, 2020 2:44 pm

Blazers20 wrote:I don’t see Collins getting much better. He seems to drop quite a bit of passes and rebounds.


Yeah his "hands" concern me, both he and Nurk missed a lot of easy near the basket opportunities, but Nurk has really good hands. I think Zach will be a "solid" NBA player with good D, as long as he does not get overpaid I am okay with him.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#27 » by BlazersBroncos » Wed Aug 5, 2020 3:23 pm

Yeah his "hands" concern me, both he and Nurk missed a lot of easy near the basket opportunities, but Nurk has really good hands. I think Zach will be a "solid" NBA player with good D, as long as he does not get overpaid I am okay with him.


Ya, his defense is still very solid. He could close out a bit quicker, but in regards to guarding much faster players on switches he is about as good as you can get at 7 feet. He may never have the hands and bulk to be a post scorer. Offensively he needs to hone that 3PT shot more than anything IMO. He should be a 40+% guy from the corner if he wants to be passable on offense. Overall, I would give his play since return a C / C+. He doesnt fill the stat sheet, but he has maintained a positive +/- all 3 games and is clearly still a great motor guy with awesome defense. Just cant stand how he keeps missing bunnies down low. If he cant dunk it, it nearly always is a miss. Maybe that improves, but I would rather his 3 improve and open the court more especially with two centers that can score nearly at will down low.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#28 » by Blazers20 » Wed Aug 5, 2020 5:23 pm

He won’t improve that much more, what you see is what you get. I think Portland should package Collins-2020 1st round for Lauri or Joh Collins since it looks like both teams don’t want to max either player out.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#29 » by Blazers20 » Wed Aug 5, 2020 5:24 pm

Seemed like Collins was hitting the mid range jump shot pretty well at the start of the season, what happened to the midrange?
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#30 » by Blazers20 » Wed Aug 5, 2020 5:25 pm

If he could hit that midrange with consistency he would be more dangerous
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#31 » by BlazersBroncos » Wed Aug 5, 2020 7:06 pm

He won’t improve that much more, what you see is what you get. I think Portland should package Collins-2020 1st round for Lauri or Joh Collins since it looks like both teams don’t want to max either player out.


Well, we cant max either out either.

Honestly Zach being a late bloomer can be a blessing in disguise. We may be able to extend him for a deal that turns out to look like quite the bargain. This team cant afford to MAX anyone right now, much less two guys that are not the same quality defender as Zach.

A defensive, low usage PF is what this team needs next to the guards and Nurkic. SF is another beast, we could definitely use someone who can handle the ball a bit more IMO.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#32 » by Fitz303 » Wed Aug 5, 2020 7:24 pm

Blazers20 wrote:He won’t improve that much more, what you see is what you get. I think Portland should package Collins-2020 1st round for Lauri or Joh Collins since it looks like both teams don’t want to max either player out.


Most here have said that he's not going anywhere, and even more said over at the T&T board that Lauri makes no sense over Collins. John Collins isn't going to be traded from ATL, and Olshey isn't likely to give up the PF that he just let Aminu walk for so that Collins could get his minutes. The FO believes in Collins, and most here are happy to see what Collins can continue to develop into. He hasn't been a starter for more than 3 games in a row yet, and is 22 years old. We'll see what he has in the next year or so.

Nurkic averaged 7ppg and 6rpg on 46% FG% in Denver by 22 years old. Give Collins some time. To say that you don't see him improving much more is extremely short sighted. By this time in Aldridge's career he was averaging 17.8ppg and 7.6rpg (on a losing/rebuilding team). By his last season in Portland, he was at 23ppg and 10rpg. I't s not unfair to say that Collins could very much improve to say a 15ppg 8rpg defensive stopper. If that's what he can become in the next couple of years, I would absolutely take that at the PF position (the way that this team is currently constructed)
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#33 » by Sinobas » Wed Aug 5, 2020 7:37 pm

He seems rusty. He's under contract next year on a cheap deal, so no way we "move on" from him till then. I was really excited when we drafted him, he's a good defender, but hasn't shown much offense. He's definitely not playing his way into a big contract. I hope to hell Olshey does not repeat the 2016 mistake of giving everyone 10 mil +
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#34 » by BlazersBroncos » Wed Aug 5, 2020 9:56 pm

He seems rusty. He's under contract next year on a cheap deal, so no way we "move on" from him till then. I was really excited when we drafted him, he's a good defender, but hasn't shown much offense. He's definitely not playing his way into a big contract. I hope to hell Olshey does not repeat the 2016 mistake of giving everyone 10 mil +


Honestly, 10M each for Zach and GTJ would be a steal. I am not a CJ hater, but its hard to convince me those two at a combined 20M isnt a better deal than CJ making 30M plus over the next 4 years. Once Nurkic wants to get paid, and he will want to get paid, this team is going to be in a very interesting spot. Can guys renegotiate deals like in the NFL? Is there any precident for that? Because I could see Dame and CJ taking smallish reductions in salary to keep some of these guys around. If any duo would do that I would argue those two would. They seem to love the current collection of guys, especially Jusuf.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#35 » by Waynearchetype » Fri Aug 7, 2020 2:59 pm

Blazers20 wrote:Did NeO really do his homework on Collins? In hindsight there were quite a few payers chosen after Collins who are multiple tiers better. In hindsight he had 3 picks in that draft and struck out on Collins and Swanigone. Totally mishandled that draft.



I was pointing out the biggest red flag about Collins before the draft, which was where he was getting his minutes. I hated the pick and I wanted Mitchell, or Giles (lol that one was bad...), or Anunoby (hes okay...). The thing that really bugged me about the Collins pick was that he picked up all his stats off the bench, he didn't start games. This was one of the same issues that Dion Waiters had. If you play against the opposing teams B squad, you're likely going to be looking better than you are. That was certainly true of both players.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#36 » by BlazersBroncos » Fri Aug 7, 2020 4:11 pm

I was pointing out the biggest red flag about Collins before the draft, which was where he was getting his minutes. I hated the pick and I wanted Mitchell, or Giles (lol that one was bad...), or Anunoby (hes okay...). The thing that really bugged me about the Collins pick was that he picked up all his stats off the bench, he didn't start games. This was one of the same issues that Dion Waiters had. If you play against the opposing teams B squad, you're likely going to be looking better than you are. That was certainly true of both players.


I really dont think this is the issue. He plays the same way now as he did in Gonzaga, he was always destined to be a utility guy. He has the potential to be a GREAT utility guy, but there was never 20/10 potential from him. We drafted him because his 3/D prospects as a PF/C were unique. He is a great athlete, has good vision, requires low usage, cant stretch the floor and is borderline elite at switching for his size. I still believe in him. The main issue is finishing and his hands. He will find his 3PT shot, its been bad the past 4 games. Lost in his mediocre offensive input is that he is averaging 7.5 rebounds per game which is a huge improvement from him. His passing has been good as well.

Once he gets his 3PT shot back and starts to block more shots, which he will, we will really see what Zach has in him.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#37 » by Blazinaway » Fri Aug 7, 2020 4:18 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:
I was pointing out the biggest red flag about Collins before the draft, which was where he was getting his minutes. I hated the pick and I wanted Mitchell, or Giles (lol that one was bad...), or Anunoby (hes okay...). The thing that really bugged me about the Collins pick was that he picked up all his stats off the bench, he didn't start games. This was one of the same issues that Dion Waiters had. If you play against the opposing teams B squad, you're likely going to be looking better than you are. That was certainly true of both players.


I really dont think this is the issue. He plays the same way now as he did in Gonzaga, he was always destined to be a utility guy. He has the potential to be a GREAT utility guy, but there was never 20/10 potential from him. We drafted him because his 3/D prospects as a PF/C were unique. He is a great athlete, has good vision, requires low usage, cant stretch the floor and is borderline elite at switching for his size. I still believe in him. The main issue is finishing and his hands. He will find his 3PT shot, its been bad the past 4 games. Lost in his mediocre offensive input is that he is averaging 7.5 rebounds per game which is a huge improvement from him. His passing has been good as well.

Once he gets his 3PT shot back and starts to block more shots, which he will, we will really see what Zach has in him.


He fits a need, however if we pay him 8-10 mil per yr eventually that's ok, but given our other big salaries and a big Nurk increase likely 2 yrs after this then we can't and shouldn't pay him more.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#38 » by BlazersBroncos » Fri Aug 7, 2020 4:37 pm

He fits a need, however if we pay him 8-10 mil per yr eventually that's ok, but given our other big salaries and a big Nurk increase likely 2 yrs after this then we can't and shouldn't pay him more.


Totally agree. In fact, I would try to entice him to a deal of that size by offering an extension this summer. Something like 4/40M. Gives him a 5M raise for next season but in return he doesnt bet on himself for a payoff higher than 10M AV summer 2021.

The unnecessarily early extensions to Dame and CJ last summer are going to make this team tremendously difficult to both keep together and improve. CJ simply is not a 30M AV guy. But then again all the lower tier #2 types in this league are way, way overpaid. At least his deal, to me, is better than guys like Tobias and Murray.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#39 » by peace forever » Fri Aug 7, 2020 6:28 pm

blazers = weed $moker$
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#40 » by BlazersBroncos » Fri Aug 7, 2020 7:06 pm

blazers = weed $moker$


I would outline this as a wasted post but the usage of dollar signs rather than the letter S is just pure alphabetic art. Good job fine sir. You are a gentleman and a scholar.

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