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Why is it time to move on from Collins?

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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#61 » by Roy The Natural » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:12 am

GEE wrote:Jeez... Is Collins really what's wrong with this team? He's still really young, progressing well, played just a handful of games in a weird environment, and is coming off a lengthy injury.

IMO, he is also far from maxed out on his potential. I don't see why, if given good coaching, he can't continue his current trajectory, and in 2 years, become just as good as All-Star Sabonis. Similar skill set with identical former coaching. Yes, he has made some mistakes, but to be fair, Dame has made a few bone-head plays too. Just let the cake bake people. Next year is the true test for him, and Simons too, to a lesser degree, GTJ just blossomed early.


He's also rebounding really well. One of the big negatives was how poorly he was rebounding for his height. That has pretty much faded. He's rebounding a respectable 7.2 rebounds (and an impressive 2.5Orb) over 27 minutes since returning.

I'm not going to be too hard on him for his offense. Yes he's had some bad plays, but he's also missed a lot of bunny's. Maybe that's who he is, or maybe he'll iron that out and a lot of it is rust. He's also looked a lot stronger this year, and I've seen him get actual movement in the post against mismatches. And to be fair, Nurkic still isn't that great around the rim though I thought he improved from the post quite a bit last year.... his 5th year in the NBA.

He obviously has some pretty common and annoying issues. I still think he gets screwed by the refs, but he's fouling too much for sure... to be fair though so is Nurkic. Really he's just playing the garbage man role right now, and it makes a lot of sense, there's not enough time left to run anything for Collins, or letting him get possessions to possibly break out of his offensive funk. If there were 30 games left, I'd wager that we'd see some more effort in getting him good looks to get some confidence on offense.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#62 » by d-train » Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:36 am

Epicurus wrote:Fumbling passes, fumbling rebounds, unnecessary fouling, putting up weak putbacks---these are NOR great plays. Done regularly they suggest, even with some positives, a wink link in a starting lineup.

Lillard has done all these things, except for weak putbacks. Neither Collins or Lillard had a weak putback that I recall.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#63 » by DaVoiceMaster » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:00 am

GEE wrote:Jeez... Is Collins really what's wrong with this team? He's still really young, progressing well, played just a handful of games in a weird environment, and is coming off a lengthy injury.

IMO, he is also far from maxed out on his potential. I don't see why, if given good coaching, he can't continue his current trajectory, and in 2 years, become just as good as All-Star Sabonis. Similar skill set with identical former coaching. Yes, he has made some mistakes, but to be fair, Dame has made a few bone-head plays too. Just let the cake bake people. Next year is the true test for him, and Simons too, to a lesser degree, GTJ just blossomed early.


Next year... I'm tired of hearing that as well. I'm not saying Collins is a bad player, but he's also nothing special.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#64 » by HoopsFanAZ » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:12 am

Bigs who look all world athletic and don’t LOVE basketball and don’t develop game: Olowokandi
Bigs who look great one on none, get drafted high and should’ve stuck to tennis or try beach volleyball: Tskitishvili and Milicic
Bigs who learn to hit 3s but don’t know they’re 7’ and built and athletic and have a mental hitch in his game: Meyers
Yeah, it’s easy to number the looked-good-but-never-were.

Does Collins love the game?
Has he already put on functional and core strength?
Worked on his game?
Does he love to mix it up and get red*** like Prz used to?
If you can’t see the fight in the dog ... okay.

Others have spoken about his D work and developing on O. Not a lot of hyperbole, there.
I expect a quality starter who plays both ends at both bigs. Top 15 at his position. So, yeah, I think highly of him.

And the truism on bigs — except for the few — Great analysis was done on peak years — by position — a decade ago. With today’s game, it’s probably more true. Guys who have limited game as rim runners can splash or who can bulldoze can smash. Guys with a much more complete game? That’s what I see out of Collins. Nurkic has talent and skills, Collins is a grinder.

Huzzah!
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#65 » by DaVoiceMaster » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:36 am

I hope you're right, but I'm not there. I went into this season ready for Collins to show me something. Thst lasted 2 1/2 games. Sure, it's not his fault, but I'm tired of waiting for this guy and am ready to move on. He doesn't mind mixing it up, but he's friggin soft. He could back down JJ Barea in the post if he tried and would settle for a 15 foot fadeaway. I dont wanna see that from a big.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#66 » by Epicurus » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:15 am

d-train wrote:
Epicurus wrote:Fumbling passes, fumbling rebounds, unnecessary fouling, putting up weak putbacks---these are NOR great plays. Done regularly they suggest, even with some positives, a wink link in a starting lineup.

Lillard has done all these things, except for weak putbacks. Neither Collins or Lillard had a weak putback that I recall.
I recall one put on the backboard rolling off the other side of the rim and another being stuffed by two opponents.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#67 » by Roy The Natural » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:25 am

Epicurus wrote:
d-train wrote:
Epicurus wrote:Fumbling passes, fumbling rebounds, unnecessary fouling, putting up weak putbacks---these are NOR great plays. Done regularly they suggest, even with some positives, a wink link in a starting lineup.

Lillard has done all these things, except for weak putbacks. Neither Collins or Lillard had a weak putback that I recall.
I recall one put on the backboard rolling off the other side of the rim and another being stuffed by two opponents.


https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=1628380&TeamID=1610612757&GameID=0021901289&ContextMeasure=OREB&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

There's his 3 Oreb in the game against the 76ers. To be fair to Collins, that's a pretty clear foul on Horford on the putback attempt, and Nurkic gets that call almost every game. He also did a nice job finding Melo for the open 3 on one of his other Oreb. The fact that he's nabbing 2.5 Oreb is in itself a good sign though. Rebounding was a major weakpoint for Collins in the past, he's doing a much better job of it since he's come back from injury and snagging some really nice rebounds.


https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=1&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=1628380&TeamID=1610612757&GameID=0021901280&ContextMeasure=OREB&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

Here's his 2 against the Clippers. Number 1 was difficult, he never really had control of it. Just a really good play by George there. The second rebound was a man's rebound in which Collins outhustled everyone and got the ball, then passed out to Lillard for the open 3 that Lillard missed. One of those plays that gets lost in the game, but just a really fantastic job by Collins here. Those type of plays lead to good outcomes more often than not.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#68 » by d-train » Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:17 am

My observation is Collins grabs a disproportionate amount of rebounds out of his area. Something that is harped on as a desirable quality. In my view, you can't dominate the boards without dominating the prime real estate. So, Collins will never be the guy we want to depend on as our main rebounder. However, we don't need a PF that does everything. We are building a team.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#69 » by Roy The Natural » Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:43 am

d-train wrote:My observation is Collins grabs a disproportionate amount of rebounds out of his area. Something that is harped on as a desirable quality. In my view, you can't dominate the boards without dominating the prime real estate. So, Collins will never be the guy we want to depend on as our main rebounder. However, we don't need a PF that does everything. We are building a team.


Oh yea, I'd agree with this. Collins isn't going to anchor a team's rebounding or anything, but he's been excellent as a secondary rebounder since the bubble started. If he can maintain that, it's a really good bonus to his potential defensive impact (I'd argue he's a positive more often than not defensively).

As much as Collins has struggled offensively with his touch. I've actually been overall encouraged by what I've seen from him offensively overall. It's been 6 games, and things haven't bounced his way to this point, but I've seen numerous instances of major progression from only a year ago. In many ways he reminds me of Nurkic in his first full season in Portland around the rim. He rushes things too much at times, and just hasn't quite zeroed in as much as he needs to yet.


Against the 76ers:

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=1628380&TeamID=1610612757&GameID=0021901289&ContextMeasure=FGA&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

Shot 1: Yea he misses the bunny. But honestly, that's Embiid on him, he shows good strength to nudge him a bit create a bit of space and put up the shot. It didn't go in, but it was VERY close. I think these are shots that will go in as he develops. I really like this from Collins, I don't think he even has the strength to do this a year ago.

Shot 2: Again, Collins isn't the strongest guy in the world but he's finding creative ways to establish really good post position. I think he has touch, and these are the types of shots that show it. I'd honestly wager that if he'd been healthy all year, some of these in close bunnies that are rimming/bouncing out of the cylinder would be going down right now. He makes this, this is a good job by Collins again playing smart and doing something that he wasn't very good at last year, which was finding ways to establish deep position and use his length to get the ball up.

Shot 3: This is one of those that many of us don't like from him. I think this is a clear foul on Horford, but what are you going to do eh... He needs to get better at keeping the ball up, or when he brings the ball down he needs to get it to someone to just reset the offense. I think he should have been at the line for 2, but it is what it is.


Against the Clippers:

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=1628380&TeamID=1610612757&GameID=0021901280&ContextMeasure=FGA&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

Shot 1: Really does have a smooth looking stroke. Sinks the 3 right over George, no problem.

Shot 2: Just an easy dunk behind the defense

Shot 3: Same

Shot 4: Nice footwork, but this is just bad shot. That needs to be a hook shot of some sort, doing some grounded jumper sort of thing is just not a good decision here.

Shot 5: Yea.. don't know what happened there. I believe in his jumper and I think its coming, and will be a weapon for him sooner rather than later, but that one didn't come out right.


Against the Nuggets:

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=1628380&TeamID=1610612757&GameID=0021901272&ContextMeasure=FGA&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

Shot 1: Missed 3. Not much to say, it happens and he's not Steph Curry.

Shot 2: That's an ugly putback attempt. He probably should have just stayed where he was and let the initial defender land on him for the foul. He tries to move around too much sometimes and get up a clean foul. He gets a lot of guys in the air but he should aim to draw contact more. Definitely need to work on an effective way to get the garbage points here, or just reset the offense.

Shot 3: This is Nurk from 2 years ago. Needs to slow down. Reminds me a lot of Nurk when he would struggle with patience when on the block. Still I think this shows how much stronger and more assertive he's become on the block. He really drops the shoulder and does get Jokic off balance and nudging him back. Collins really has some fantastic footwork, but he needs to develop something he can really go to on the block and then use his footwork to counter. He has a lot of technical ability and potential, but he's rushing things and doesn't seem to have that one shot he can land at a high clip. These types of post ups against a mismatch that's in his favor though, could be a real weapon for him at some point.

Shot 4: If he can iron this down, that's going to be there for him all day. Nice little mid-range pull-up that he was using to great success in preseason and the first 2 games this year. This is something the Blazers should try a bit more.

Shot 5: Just a made 3. His form is pretty nice. He has a really silky jumper for a guy his size.


Against the Celtics:

https://stats.nba.com/events/?flag=3&CFID=&CFPARAMS=&PlayerID=1628380&TeamID=1610612757&GameID=0021901245&ContextMeasure=FGA&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&RangeType=0&StartPeriod=1&EndPeriod=10&StartRange=0&EndRange=28800&section=game&sct=plot

Shot 1: Mismatch, easy bucket. Establishing that deep position that I talked about that he didn't do much of a couple of years ago.

Shot 2: Not much to say, Celtic gambled, Collins dunked. Sort of a hard play to have much to say about.

Shot 3: This is the progression that's obvious to me. Collins didn't get overpowered by the smaller Hayward. He bumped him nice and hard, created good space, and sank the hook shot. Collins COULD NOT do this a couple of years ago. He's playing a lot harder in the post than people are giving him credit for in this thread. He's really banging down there even if he's not a Nurkic powerhouse. This is clear progression people, it may not be there yet, but not once in all his shots so far has he truly been overpowered and had to resort to some **** shot. He's establishing better position, and he's posting up with noticeably more force than in the past. I'd argue that if there were 30 games left, mismatching Collins in the post would probably be a good idea to see if we could get him going a bit more offensively.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#70 » by DeBlazerRiddem » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:07 pm

While it would be nice to have superstars at all starting and backup positions, that's just not feasible. What that means is that teams have to fit flawed players together and combine various skillsets to be as good of a team as possible.

In history we learn one of the things that made early agriculture societies successful is the idea of "specialization". Similarly in basketball, because there are only so many shots to go around, ideally most of those shots go to the most effective scorers. What that means is there are players who have to do the dirty work to help teams win. They are typically called "glue guys" and throughout NBA history they are the unheralded players behind many successful teams. You have to have stars to compete but you need glue guys supporting your stars to win.

Collins is our best and most versatile defender. He is our best defender against stretch bigs and big wings and even good defensive players pick up quite a few fouls. He is our 5th option with the starters so he isn't going to get many shots or score many points. He is tasked with boxing out so Nurkic and Melo can grab boards.

No one is saying Zach is untouchable or some future star. He is a high level role player, the type of guy you want to support your starters. He can and will improve, no one is a finished product at 22, but he has a really high defensive IQ and is very good at positioning himself on that end. He does many of those little things well. If his shot was broken or he made dumb plays regularly ala Meyers Leonard then I could see being down on him, but he has a good shot and rarely puts up "bad" shots, even when he misses "gimme" type baskets. Those will come, there is a lot to be optimistic about him being a smart 5th option type player who allows guys like Nurkic and Lillard to really shine.

If a trade comes up to say combine McCollum and Collins to get a better second option with Lillard then sure, go for it, you always want to consolidate talent. But I see no reason to shuffle Collins around for some other 5th option guy who will come in and play the same glue guy role on the team.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#71 » by Wizenheimer » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:48 pm

DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
Collins is our best and most versatile defender. He is our best defender against stretch bigs and big wings and even good defensive players pick up quite a few fouls.


c'mon...that's not true. Nurkic is the best defender. And if Ariza was playing, he's a better defender than Zach. Zach as best defender, other than Nurkic, is only by default because Portland is so poor at defense and so weak in defensive personnel. Even Zach's versatility is questionable because I have never seen him consistently defend premier SF's well. Guys like Kawhi, and Lebron, and PG13, and Siakam eat Zach's lunch. Trying to defend guys like that is one big reason Zach is always in foul trouble

I'm seeing Zach fans here make cases for Zach, and the best you can do so far is make the case he's a role player. Of course, the main reason for that is that Zach himself hasn't made a case he's more than a role player. He's Harkless 2.0, and so far, he's not as good as Aminu was for Portland

Zach is 2 years older than Jaren Jackson and Wendell Carter Jr., 1 year older than Michael Porter Jr., Rui Hachimura (5 mos.), PJ Washington, Jarret Allen & Mitchell Robinson, and the same age as John Collins. Zach is only 5 months younger than Bam Abedayo & Myles Turner, and 6 months younger than Domantas Sabonis. In other words, the Zach-is-stll-young and the bigs-take-longer cards have just about worn out

I'm not buying the stuff about Collins being forced into a role either; there is no hidden offensive talent waiting to be unleashed. If John Collins, or Sabonis, or Michael Porter, or Jaren Jackson were on the Blazers, they wouldn't be a minor 5th or 6th option on offense, any more than Trent is. They'd be getting their shots and would be climbing out of being a role player.

like I said, I'm not closing the book on Collins yet. But he sure isn't mostly blank pages at this point. He's played in 172 NBA games and unlike a lot of young players, Collins has played consistent minutes and had consistent opportunity

I'd agree you don't need all-stars at every position. Unfortunately, Portland only has an all-star at 1 position. So they need to stop locking in average players as long term starters and keep their options open without settling for low level starters. 4 years of Aminu/Harkless as starting forwards should have taught them that.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#72 » by DeBlazerRiddem » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:24 pm

Wizenheimer wrote:
DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
Collins is our best and most versatile defender. He is our best defender against stretch bigs and big wings and even good defensive players pick up quite a few fouls.


c'mon...that's not true. Nurkic is the best defender. And if Ariza was playing, he's a better defender than Zach. Zach as best defender, other than Nurkic, is only by default because Portland is so poor at defense and so weak in defensive personnel. Even Zach's versatility is questionable because I have never seen him consistently defend premier SF's well. Guys like Kawhi, and Lebron, and PG13, and Siakam eat Zach's lunch. Trying to defend guys like that is one big reason Zach is always in foul trouble

I'm seeing Zach fans here make cases for Zach, and the best you can do so far is make the case he's a role player. Of course, the main reason for that is that Zach himself hasn't made a case he's more than a role player. He's Harkless 2.0, and so far, he's not as good as Aminu was for Portland

Zach is 2 years older than Jaren Jackson and Wendell Carter Jr., 1 year older than Michael Porter Jr., Rui Hachimura (5 mos.), PJ Washington, Jarret Allen & Mitchell Robinson, and the same age as John Collins. Zach is only 5 months younger than Bam Abedayo & Myles Turner, and 6 months younger than Domantas Sabonis. In other words, the Zach-is-stll-young and the bigs-take-longer cards have just about worn out

I'm not buying the stuff about Collins being forced into a role either; there is no hidden offensive talent waiting to be unleashed. If John Collins, or Sabonis, or Michael Porter, or Jaren Jackson were on the Blazers, they wouldn't be a minor 5th or 6th option on offense, any more than Trent is. They'd be getting their shots and would be climbing out of being a role player.

like I said, I'm not closing the book on Collins yet. But he sure isn't mostly blank pages at this point. He's played in 172 NBA games and unlike a lot of young players, Collins has played consistent minutes and had consistent opportunity

I'd agree you don't need all-stars at every position. Unfortunately, Portland only has an all-star at 1 position. So they need to stop locking in average players as long term starters and keep their options open without settling for low level starters. 4 years of Aminu/Harkless as starting forwards should have taught them that.


Yikes, there are so many strawmen in this. The only non-strawman is that I disagree and think Collins is better defending in space on the perimeter and against stretch bigs than Nurkic. Nurkic is better inside but Collins is more versatile and can cover more matchups than Nurkic.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#73 » by Epicurus » Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:56 pm

Units need role players---GOOD role players. A role player is on the court to do other things than scoring (that does not mean you don't want them taking and making shots when available, of course). Trouble with Collins in this restart is he is not being that good of role player. Too much fumbling of the catchable, too much fouling with no enough bothering, much less blocking, of opponents' shots. He has spurts of doing well, but not consistently as needed from a GOOD role player.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#74 » by Wizenheimer » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:03 pm

DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
Yikes, there are so many strawmen in this. The only non-strawman is that I disagree and think Collins is better defending in space on the perimeter and against stretch bigs than Nurkic. Nurkic is better inside but Collins is more versatile and can cover more matchups than Nurkic.


you'll have to explain the straw men but keep in mind that I quoted one part of your post about Zach's defense and responded to that. The rest of my post went to arguments many others in this thread are making, so, without knowing my reason for writing what I did I'm not sure how you can label it straw men, although maybe the fault for that is mine for not being clearer about everything I was responding to

as for Zach's better defense, since he's played so little this season, statistically, we have last season as a gauge

Def BPM:

Jusuf Nurkić 1.7
Maurice Harkless 1.7
Skal Labissière 1.2
Al-Farouq Aminu 0.6
Evan Turner 0.5
Zach Collins 0.3
Meyers Leonard 0.3

(and if you don't like using last season DBPM as gauge, how about this season:

Jusuf Nurkić 1.9
Hassan Whiteside 0.7
Trevor Ariza 0.5
Kent Bazemore 0.4
Mario Hezonja 0.3
Skal Labissière 0.3
Caleb Swanigan 0.0
Wenyen Gabriel -0.3
Rodney Hood -0.5
Gary Trent -0.6
Nassir Little -0.6
Damian Lillard -0.8
Anthony Tolliver -0.9
Zach Collins -0.9

yeah, that's not good for several reasons
)

defensive winshares:

Jusuf Nurkić 3.3
Al-Farouq Aminu 2.8
Damian Lillard 2.4
Maurice Harkless 1.9
CJ McCollum 1.7
Evan Turner 1.5
Zach Collins 1.5
Jake Layman 1.2

last season, in DRPM some NBA PF's:

2 Thon Maker 2.54
5 Luke Kornet 2.06
7 Maxi Kleber 1.87
8 Mason Plumlee 1.73
9 Ed Davis 1.72
12 Montrezl Harrell 1.69
18 Anthony Tolliver 1.49
20 Giannis Antetokounmpo 1.44
21 Domantas Sabonis 1.43
25 Kevon Looney 1.35
26 Ersan Ilyasova 1.28
30 Frank Kaminsky 1.18
33 Aaron Gordon 1.11
36 JaMychal Green 1.07
37 Thaddeus Young 1.04
39 Zach Collins 0.99

now, that's not a bad number for Zach; but it isn't high level either

as for him being "versatile"...ok, but that's only valuable if he's good across the range of his versatility. And the 'fact' he can guard stretch-4's better than Nurk doesn't make him a good defender. CJ can guard PG's better than Nurk which indicates some versatility, but he's not a good defender

and keep in mind, I'm not saying Zach is not a decent-to-good defender. He's just not as good defensively to have an impact close to Nurk or even that of Whiteside. And he's not as good on wings and stretch-4's as were Aminu & Harkless. Guys who can lock down the paint like Nurk and Whiteside are valuable defenders and that takes more than just shot-blocking and scowling at foul calls
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#75 » by Sinobas » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:14 pm

I'm also concerned that Neil is going to give Zach some ridiculous contract. Why didn't Neil keep Skal Labissiere? He actually looked better than Zach in his limited playing time. Some doufus on this forum said it was a "pipedream" to be able to retain Zach for under 10 mil.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#76 » by BlazersBroncos » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:47 pm

I'm also concerned that Neil is going to give Zach some ridiculous contract. Why didn't Neil keep Skal Labissiere? He actually looked better than Zach in his limited playing time. Some doufus on this forum said it was a "pipedream" to be able to retain Zach for under 10 mil.


I think that Neil and Co. had no intent to resign Skal so they moved him for savings once he got injured.

Zach has shown nothing so far to indicate he is worth more than 8M. JayMichael Green only got 2/10M last offseason and its quite arguable that he was a better player in 2019. I still have faith in Zach, but not enough to overpay him.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#77 » by HoopsFanAZ » Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:34 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:
I'm also concerned that Neil is going to give Zach some ridiculous contract. Why didn't Neil keep Skal Labissiere? He actually looked better than Zach in his limited playing time. Some doufus on this forum said it was a "pipedream" to be able to retain Zach for under 10 mil.


I think that Neil and Co. had no intent to resign Skal so they moved him for savings once he got injured.

Zach has shown nothing so far to indicate he is worth more than 8M. JayMichael Green only got 2/10M last offseason and its quite arguable that he was a better player in 2019. I still have faith in Zach, but not enough to overpay him.


Not CJ or Turner $$$ at this point.
As to Skal, I really like him. His athleticism was pretty smooth for a big. Is he good enough to be a minutes eater at PF/C? I don't know if he would become a 30 minute guy. Maybe. I definitely like as the 4th big man for the Blazers.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#78 » by whatchaknow » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:16 am

Problem I see with Zach is that he really needs to bulk up, particularly in his lower half. Gets pushed out of position by guards, and his weak base I think leads to missed shots around rim quite often. In doing so I think it would lock him into the 5 spot though as I could see the mobility decreasing to where he’s not playable for long stretches at the 4. I think he’s very talented and has a lot of skills A lot of young bigs dream of but he hasn’t put it all together. Shot is inconsistent, post play is sporadic, passing is only in glimpses, shot blocking leads to fouls more often than not and his rebounding is negated by getting stripped often.

I would prefer to find somebody like an Aaron Gordon that could start at the 4 and bring Collins in as a 4/5 off the bench. At the same time if we can find a 3/4 that is a capable starter I wouldn’t hesitate to include him in a trade. I don’t think his ceiling is as high as Neil sold us on draft day but I think he’s got a safe floor as what we see now is still a capable player. I think he could be in the elite role player category if things click for him but right now he just hasn’t showed enough consistently for me to think of him as untouchable
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#79 » by kumquat » Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:36 pm

GEE wrote:Jeez... Is Collins really what's wrong with this team? He's still really young, progressing well, played just a handful of games in a weird environment, and is coming off a lengthy injury.

IMO, he is also far from maxed out on his potential. I don't see why, if given good coaching, he can't continue his current trajectory, and in 2 years, become just as good as All-Star Sabonis. Similar skill set with identical former coaching. Yes, he has made some mistakes, but to be fair, Dame has made a few bone-head plays too. Just let the cake bake people. Next year is the true test for him, and Simons too, to a lesser degree, GTJ just blossomed early.



To be honest I think he is actually what's wrong with this team. Replace him with a guy that can actually rebound and hit shots at the rim and not fumble the ball. His instincts aren't too far from Meyers Leonard level and his perceived defensive ability is way overrated.

Looks like he's running around the court with no purpose and he struggles holding position against guards. Portland is a good interior forward away from a championship. I'd take Enes Kanter at PF 10 times out of 10 in front of Zach.
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Re: Why is it time to move on from Collins? 

Post#80 » by Blazinaway » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:17 pm

Zach should be a C and we are trying to make him a PF which IMO ain't workin too well, we already have Nurk at C and I have to think its easily Zach that would get moved, if a good trade comes along I'd prefer to move Zach

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